438 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

andy69156915 wrote...

And now we're to magical viruses that destroy lifespans because... Reasons?

I think I'm done posting to you, because you are frankly not worth posting to now. Your explanations prove you're either trolling or have a serious problem with your thinking capabilities. Just realize that your crazy explanations actually helped prove my point about how illogical and nonsense the elves claim is, because if it needs that much mystical mumbo jumbo then it's absolutely an indefensible claim to begin with. 

You're denigrating the elven lore because you dislike it. That's pretty much it. This is a world where half-elven children are human for reasons that the developers said are likely magical in nature. A world with elves, dwarves, Qunari, dragons, spirits, and magic. You're welcome to dislike what the People claim or to think it isn't true, but please don't act as though your opinion of their lore is indisputable fact.

You're asking Xil to provide evidence to support that humans caused elves to lose their immortality when you can't provide anything to dismiss it as a possibility. That road goes both ways.

[Wulfram]

I don't think we have much evidence either way. 

Personally I think it would be more interesting if it's true. It creates more interesting moral dilemmas.

I do wish we got a bit more idea as to lifespans among the Dalish.  It annoys me to have it be unclear, because it doesn't seem like it's a mystery in universe.

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 avril 2013 - 05:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still believing the whole "Quickening" is bull**** created by elves to breed hate and an excuse to distance themselves from humans as much as possible to retain their "culture".

There's no evidence to prove the Dalish actually do live longer because of their distancing of humans, it might have to do with having a healthier lifestyle in a healthier habitat with unregulated magic to cure their wounds/diseases.

Aside from the developers saying that the Dalish live longer, of course (but not as long lived as Tolkien elves). And the dialogue from Zathrian's clan about the longevity of the Dalish. And Marethari's age being indicative that the Dalish live longer away from humans.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aside from the developers saying that the Dalish live longer

Doesn't mean it's magical midichlorians of human oppression.

And the dialogue from Zathrian's clan about the longevity of the Dalish.

Aside from Zathrian--which used blood magic--what everyone mentions is not significant enough to warrant it being magical in nature and could be be their lifestyle. They don't live in filthy Alienages, hunt for their food and don't starve and suffer like the City Elves.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[andy6915]

@LobselVith8

Am I? Is that why I believe the elven gods are more likely then the Maker and actually want an elven-centric game that is all about their lore and history and future, and why I have more eleven playthroughs in Origins then any other race? Wow, I'm so amazed you guessed my motives and thoughts so well. Truly, I am in awe sir! IN AWE!

Not believing the Dalish's asstastically stupid reason for why they supposedly lost their immortality doesn't make me some kind of Dragon Age elves hater. The explanation the Dalish gives makes no sense whatsoever, and is from a people that hate humans to their very core and are thus a VERY biased source... Acknowledging that doesn't mean you dislike elves.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 06:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aside from the developers saying that the Dalish live longer

Doesn't mean it's magical midichlorians of human oppression.

Considering the developers statement that half-elven children are likely human for a magical reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the elves were correct about the reason the lost their immortality.

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And the dialogue from Zathrian's clan about the longevity of the Dalish.

Aside from Zathrian--which used blood magic--what everyone mentions is not significant enough to warrant it being magical in nature and could be be their lifestyle. They don't live in filthy Alienages, hunt for their food and don't starve and suffer like the City Elves. 

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think the comments from the developers, the information provided to The Warden by the Sabrae Clan, and Marethari being over 100 years old suggest that the Dalish live longer than their city brethren, and perhaps the ancient elves were correct about the devastating effects human contact had on the Arlthan elves.

[andy6915]

The humans might be why they lost their immortality, I never denied that. What I did deny is that mere proximity being the cause is nonsense. If humans are the cause, I am EXTREMELY doubtful the reason is the one the Dalish believe. Again, the one elf we met who was immortal... Did it with a rare blood magic ritual. That is telling. The other person who was seemingly immortal? Avernus. Tells me that blood magic is why old elves were immortal, and the invasion by humans made them forget how. Of course, that is just my own fan theory. Difference is, mine has evidence makes sense. The people who believe the quickening story are giving physic static and magic viruses as explanation. I think it's obvious who's making more sense here.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 06:07 .

[LobselVith8]

andy69156915 wrote...

@LobselVith8

Am I? Is that why I believe the elven gods are more likely then the Maker and actually want an elven-centric game that is all about their lore and history and future, and why I have more eleven playthroughs in Origins then any other race? Wow, I'm so amazed you guessed my motives and thoughts so well. Truly, I am in awe sir! IN AWE!

Your opinion on elven lore is merely that - an opinion. It's not fact. So perhaps you should dial it down when speaking to people who don't share your opinion on elven lore. Saying that Xil isn't worth posting to because she doesn't share your opinion is ridiculous.

andy69156915 wrote...

Not believing the Dalish's asstastically stupid reason for why they supposedly lost their immortality doesn't make me some kind of Dragon Age elves hater. The explanation the Dalish gives makes no sense whatsoever, and is from a people that hate humans to their very core and are thus a VERY biased source... Acknowledging that doesn't mean you dislike elves. 

I didn't say it did, but you're denigrating their lore because you don't like it. You have absolutely no proof to dispute their lore, so I see no reason for you to mock anyone for thinking it's a possibility. Simply because you dislike it doesn't mean the People are wrong.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

@LobselVith8

Am I? Is that why I believe the elven gods are more likely then the Maker and actually want an elven-centric game that is all about their lore and history and future, and why I have more eleven playthroughs in Origins then any other race? Wow, I'm so amazed you guessed my motives and thoughts so well. Truly, I am in awe sir! IN AWE!

Your opinion on elven lore is merely that - an opinion. It's not fact. So perhaps you should dial it down when speaking to people who don't share your opinion on elven lore. Saying that Xil isn't worth posting to because she doesn't share your opinion is ridiculous.

andy69156915 wrote...

Not believing the Dalish's asstastically stupid reason for why they supposedly lost their immortality doesn't make me some kind of Dragon Age elves hater. The explanation the Dalish gives makes no sense whatsoever, and is from a people that hate humans to their very core and are thus a VERY biased source... Acknowledging that doesn't mean you dislike elves. 

I didn't say it did, but you're denigrating their lore because you don't like it. You have absolutely no proof to dispute their lore, so I see no reason for you to mock anyone for thinking it's a possibility. Simply because you dislike it doesn't mean the People are wrong.

The Dalish elves unverified claims are not set in stone or confirmed as true by David Gaider, and friends. Remember how Corypheus's one statement poked a hole in the Chantry's claim that the Tevinter corrupted the Golden City when it was the opposite? Solely using the Elves stories as proof of their immortality is like taking the Chant of Light at face value.

[andy6915]

No, Xil isn't worth posting to because the explanations coming out of that person are absolutely nuts and make no sense at ll, and they're only getting weirder the more you push him/her on a proper explanation for believing such crap.

My reason for disputing their lore is the same reason I dispute a young-Earth creationists "lore" about why the Earth is supposedly only 6,000 years old and that humans rode on dinosaurs... Because it's STUPID.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 06:22 .

[LobselVith8]

andy69156915 wrote...

No, Xil isn't worth posting to because the explanations coming out of that person are absolutely nuts and make no sense at ll, and they're only getting weirder the more you push him/her on a proper explanation for believing such crap.

Xil doesn't owe you an explanation for why she thinks the elves may have been immortal. She's entitled to her opinion, and you're entitled to yours. Simply because you don't agree with her doesn't make her view "crap" though. Given the comments by the developers about the Dalish and what the Sabrae Clan tells The Warden in Origins, it's a valid opinion to have.

andy69156915 wrote...

My reason for disputing their lore is the same reason I dispute a young-Earth creationists "lore" about why the Earth is supposedly only 6,000 years old and that humans rode on dinosaurs... Because it's STUPID.

Except we know the Dalish live longer away from human contact, so I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is. Perhaps we can get back to the OP, since you've made your opinion perfectly clear already.

[Herr Uhl]

Filament wrote...

I have to admit, I don't know who Gaspard is.

Some count guy that is opposed to Celene for being a whimp apparently.

I find the dissection of everything on this forum amusing. Though this seemed like an opportunity to yammer on about the elves more than anything.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we know the Dalish live longer away from human contact, so I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is.

That's in no way indicative that humans generate some magical elven degeneration field. It wholly ignores factors like diet, lifestyle, and environment. (eg. the reasons Japanese citizens on average live longer lives than Americans) Plus the city elves are poverty stricken so wouldn't that greatly impact their health?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 avril 2013 - 06:49 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're asking Xil to provide evidence to support that humans caused elves to lose their immortality when you can't provide anything to dismiss it as a possibility. That road goes both ways.

That's not how logic or evidence works. When there's an extraordinary claim, then the evidence required to demonstrate the claim is quite high. Especially when it's a claim made about the past. And even moreso when there are multiple claims made. 

For example, Elves = Immortal is one claim. Another is that Humans = Cause for Loss of Immortality. That's another. The elves could have been immortal without humans having been the cause of their loss. 

The only case of a long-lived elf that we've seen approaching anything like immortality was Zathrian, and he used blood magic to do it. Which we do know can extend lifespans (cf. Avernus). Given what we know from Merril (that ancient elves used blood magic), it's quite possible that their loss of immortality was just a casuality of their being defeated by Tevinter and losing access to their magic and spells. 

Or alternative it could be that using the Eluvians somehow made them immortal. 

Or it could be that they had a Staff of Immortality + 5 that a drunk elf misplaced one time on a trip to Tevinter. That's how it works when you have zero evidence. 

[andy6915]

" the reasons Japanese citizens on average live longer lives than Americans"

Really? I was told by a Japanese friend that they used to live really long lives, but because of close proximity to Americans after we nuked them in WW2 their lifespans were greatly reduced, and that them not getting many American tourists since then is why their lifespans have been increasing again. You mean he wasn't telling the truth?! I trusted him!

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 06:54 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except we know the Dalish live longer away from human contact, so I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is. Perhaps we can get back to the OP, since you've made your opinion perfectly clear already.

We also know that the murder rate increases when ice cream consumption increases, but that doesn't mean that ice cream causes an increase in the murder rate. 

[The Hierophant]

andy69156915 wrote...

" the reasons Japanese citizens on average live longer lives than Americans"

Really? I was told by a Japanese friend that it was because close proximity to Americans after we nuked them in WW2 destroyed their lifespan, and that them not getting many American tourists since then is why their lifespans have been increasing. You mean he wasn't telling the truth?! I trusted him!

The man - The CIA needs to detain him as he knows too much.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 avril 2013 - 07:35 .

[Wulfram]

If the Dalish believed this before the loss of the Dales (Which I think is probable, given their behaviour) then it seems like they'd have been in a position to gather some pretty solid observations to back it up.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we know the Dalish live longer away from human contact, so I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is.

That's in no way indicative that humans generate some magical elven degeneration field. It wholly ignores factors like diet, lifestyle, and environment. (eg. the reasons Japanese citizens on average live longer lives than Americans) Plus the city elves are poverty stricken so wouldn't that greatly impact their health? 

People have different views on the issue. I have acknowledged that for two pages now. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter. My problem is when andy mocks Xil over this issue simply because she doesn't share his opinion about the elven lore when no one can ascertain the truth, one way or the other.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 avril 2013 - 07:24 .

[andy6915]

When an opinion is utterly ridiculous and laughable, mocking is exactly what it deserves. I don't mind opinions other then my own, I don't mind disagreeing. I DO mind when an opinion is crazy and lacking any sense of logic behind it and the person uses "it is my opinion" like a shield to try to protect their views from scrutiny. Want to disagree and have an opinion different from mine? Great! Want to have an opinion that is patently ridiculous and has awful reasoning behind it? Not great.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 07:30 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're asking Xil to provide evidence to support that humans caused elves to lose their immortality when you can't provide anything to dismiss it as a possibility. That road goes both ways.

That's not how logic or evidence works. When there's an extraordinary claim, then the evidence required to demonstrate the claim is quite high. Especially when it's a claim made about the past. And even moreso when there are multiple claims made.

There's no evidence to prove the elves correct or incorrect beyond a shadow of a doubt, which is the crux of the issue here. It doesn't make sense to me for anyone to mock someone for thinking that the elves could have lost their immortality because of human contact. It's the behavior of a troll.

In Exile wrote...

For example, Elves = Immortal is one claim. Another is that Humans = Cause for Loss of Immortality. That's another. The elves could have been immortal without humans having been the cause of their loss. 

The only case of a long-lived elf that we've seen approaching anything like immortality was Zathrian, and he used blood magic to do it. Which we do[/b] know can extend lifespans (cf. Avernus). Given what we know from Merril (that ancient elves used blood magic), it's quite possible that their loss of immortality was just a casuality of their being defeated by Tevinter and losing access to their magic and spells. 

Or alternative it could be that using the Eluvians somehow made them immortal. 

Or it could be that they had a Staff of Immortality + 5 that a drunk elf misplaced one time on a trip to Tevinter. That's how it works when you have zero[/i] evidence. 

The developers acknowledged the Dalish live longer. The Dalish inform The Warden that the People live longer. Keeper Marethari is over 100 years old. I'm going to say that no one should be mocked for thinking that the elves could be correct about why they lost their immortality.

[andy6915]

Humans have people that live over 100. You going to start claiming humans are gaining immortality now? The Japanese live longer on average then Americans. Guess my Japanese friend's claim that proximity to Americans and their lifespan being related is true. They have more people living to 100 then we do, so he MUST be correct about that claim... Right?

It's like I've stepped into a parallel world where logic works differently from my world.

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 07:52 .

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we know the Dalish live longer away from human contact, so I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is.

That's in no way indicative that humans generate some magical elven degeneration field. It wholly ignores factors like diet, lifestyle, and environment. (eg. the reasons Japanese citizens on average live longer lives than Americans) Plus the city elves are poverty stricken so wouldn't that greatly impact their health? 

People have different views on the issue. I have acknowledged that for two pages now. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter. My problem is when andy mocks Xil over this issue simply because she doesn't share his opinion about the elven lore when no one can ascertain the truth, one way or the other.

Yeah there'll be differing opinions, and differing reactions to them regardless but the problem is when someone uses claims that are unsupported by the lore to defend their pov.

Mind you though that before The Phantom Menace was released the SW fandom speculated that the force was a variant of Chi/Ki based on Lucas's comments then the Midi-clorians happened, so i wouldn't be surprised if Xil's theory turns out to be true no matter how non sensical it sounds.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 avril 2013 - 08:00 .

[andy6915]

The Midi-chlorian is not an explanation of the force like a lot of people believe. It's merely the cells that allows one to sense and manipulate the force. The force would exists regardless of the Midi-chlorians, just as light exists without eyeballs to detect it, and sound waves exist without ears.