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[Han Shot First]

Did anyone else notice that the word 'Squad' was overused in the series?

In the grand scheme of things this is a very, very minor complaint, and it in no way impacted by ability to enjoy the series. I'm merely bringing it up in the off chance that any devs might be lurking, as a suggestion for the next game.

There were a lot of instances throughout the series where a character with a military background refers to his or her squad in a context that implies that their squad was operating independently from a higher command. A character for example might say something like, "When my squad deployed to Eden Prime' instead of "When my battalion deployed to Eden Prime." In Paragon Lost, Vega deploys to Fehl Prime with a single squad. For those of you who never served in the military this distinction might seem like a big deal, but squads do not operate independently from a higher command. In fact the smallest military unit capable of independent operations is a battalion. A squad might perform duties where it is temporarily detached from its parent unit (a platoon or company), say for example a reconaissance patrol, but in these duties it is supporting the operations of its parent unit. It does not operate independently.

Also squads are not commanded by officers, they are commanded by enlisted NCOs and Staff NCOs. In the real world depending on the army, squads are commanded by Corporals, Sergeants, or Staff Sergeants, and their equivalents. In the Mass Effect Universe that means squads should be commanded by Service Chiefs or Gunnery Chiefs (like Ashley on Eden Prime), or their Turian, Asari, Salarian, ect. equivalents. Fire teams, which are 3 or 4 man teams that make up a squad of 8 to 14 people (depending on the country), are usually commanded by Corporals or Sergeants or their equivalents.
 
Officers command platoons and above. In the Mass Effect universe this means platoons should be commanded by 2nd Lieutenants and 1st Lieutenants (or the alien equivalents), while Staff Lieutenants (the equivalent of an infantry Captain it seems) should be commanding Companies. Battalions should be commanded by Staff Commanders and Regiments by Majors. (Major in the ME universe is the equivalent of a Colonel)

I would suggest that when writers without a military background have to write dialogue referring to a character's unit, to either do some research to make sure that dialogue checks out, or just to use the vague word 'unit' instead of a more specific term like 'squad.' A unit after all can mean anything from a squad all the way up to a division. A writer isn't going to make an error by using the word 'unit' instead.

[Odd Bet]

Why would the asari, salarian, and turian militaries adhere to modern human military standards? The asari, according to the lore, have no centralized command for their military, rather having numerous commando squads acting independently from one another. The salarian STG similarly functions through the use of independent cells. The turians are probably the most similar to the Alliance military, and even they are described in the lore as having a decentralized command structure.

It is entirely possible that, given more than 150 years having passed and decades of interaction with alien militaries, the Alliance military doctrine is far different than the standard of today.

[Mike Shepard]

So in other words the entire series is invalid because Shepard is an officer and s/he commands a three-person..yep I'm gonna say it..."squad"

Also once Shep becomes a spectre s/he operates outside of the Alliance Chain of Command, which means s/he wouldn't necessarily have to adhere to their specific  command structure/protocols. (Spectre command structure is loosely defined). In Mass Effect 2, Shepard is technically not even in the Armed services anymore because s/he works for Cerberus and died. S/he is more of an independant civillian contractor in Mass Effect 2 In me3...again, spectre. Also big huge war.

(NOTE: please, please don't take my initial statement seriously. I meant that as a light-hearted joke before I got to my main point)

Modifié par Mike Shepard, 01 avril 2013 - 11:55 .

[Ledgend1221]

Pre-cancel ordered.

[Obadiah]

I actually noticed that they used the word "unit" quite a bit.

Thanks for the info on "squad", didn't know that.

[Han Shot First]

Odd Bet wrote...

Why would the asari, salarian, and turian militaries adhere to modern human military standards?

Because there are very practical reasons for battalions being the smallest units to operate independently, and those lessons have been learned after centuries of warfare. It would be entirely impractical for a squad of 8 to 14 men to have their own headquarters staff responsible for personnel (S1), intelligence (S2), operations (S3), logistics (S4), and communications. (S6)

Without all of those, along with supporting elements like supply and mechanics, medical personnel, artillery support, ect, a unit's ability to operate independently would be greatly curtailed if not non-existant.

Additionally if the squad was the smallest unit capable of independent operations larger units like divisions would have way too many moving parts, to the point that command-and-control and unit cohesion would be entirely compromised.
An army organized in that fashion would be quite easily trounced by one that was not.

Unless the aliens are completely inept when it comes to waging wars, their militaries would not be organized in that fashion.

The aliens may have different terminology and their command structures and organization might differ in some areas, but squads would not be the smallest unit to operate independently.

Odd Bet wrote...

The asari, according to the lore, have no centralized command for their military, rather having numerous commando squads acting independently from one another. The salarian STG similarly functions through the use of independent cells. The turians are probably the most similar to the Alliance military, and even they are described in the lore as having a decentralized command structure.

The Asari do not have a centralized command structure in the sense that they do not have a national military. Each city-state fields its own military units with its own command structure. In the event of war I suppose it functions more like NATO, where you have the various militaries of various nation-states temporarily united against a common foe.

That does not mean however that the smallest unit to operate independently in the armies of the various city-states would be squads. As I noted above, it would be entirely impractical to organize an army in that fashion, and it would perform very poorly in its primary role: waging war.

Mike Shepard wrote...

So in other words the entire series is invalid because Shepard is an officer and s/he commands a three-person..yep I'm gonna say it..."squad"

That isn't a squad.

It's a fire team.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 avril 2013 - 03:01 .

[Admiral Lawson]

Hehe the only time it ever bothered me, was in ME2, the Miranda romance.

Shep: The best thing the Illusive Man ever did was to put you on my squad.
Real charmer shep xD

[Han Shot First]

Scepsis wrote...

Why must so-called BioWare fans nitpick absolutely everything? 

Let me repeat: In the grand scheme of things this is a very, very minor complaint, and it in no way impacted my ability to enjoy the series. I'm merely bringing it up in the off chance that any devs might be lurking, as a suggestion for the next game.

It is a suggestion for Mass Effect 4, not a rant about the supposed failings of Mass Effect 3. Ya dig?

Like I said, it in no way impacted my ability to enjoy the game.

Unit works better than squad in most dialogue, particularly if the writer does not have past military service and is unfamiliar with the organization and rank structure of militaries.

Its kind of like the left-handed salutes. It might have made me chuckle but it didn't impact my ability to enjoy the game. Still, in ME4 they should make an effort to have human characters always salute with their right.

[Wolfva2]

Sheesh, it's sad Han had to re-emphasize that it's a MINOR detail. Talk about nit picking...oh, not his complaint. The people criticizing HIM for doing something he wasn't. Irony, she is a harsh mistress, neh?

Course, I also happen to agree. A bit of the military nomenclature was off. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised reading the dossiers on the Shadow Broker's ship about Thane. Someone did some research in the proper ways to break a neck; most people don't know you have to immobilize the shoulder first. It's not done like that in the movies, after all.

[Mike Shepard]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Sheesh, it's sad Han had to re-emphasize that it's a MINOR detail. Talk about nit picking...oh, not his complaint. The people criticizing HIM for doing something he wasn't. Irony, she is a harsh mistress, neh?

Course, I also happen to agree. A bit of the military nomenclature was off. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised reading the dossiers on the Shadow Broker's ship about Thane. Someone did some research in the proper ways to break a neck; most people don't know you have to immobilize the shoulder first. It's not done like that in the movies, after all.

For my part, I was just trying to be snarky

[Khevan77]

To be fair, Special forces operatives work in small groups of (usually) 6 men, called ODA's or "A-Teams."** Shepard and company would fall into that classification, and there's a good bet that many of the people we hear during the series would fall into a spec ops kind of organization.

That being said, I happen to agree with the OP. The left handed salutes were more jarring to me, but the squad comments were a bit too ubiquitous.

**: ODA's can, and frequently do, operate independant of higher organization, but there is higher organization for all of the company/battalion level supply/logistics/intel/etc between ops. This is merely for clarification, in case someone calls me on it for not mentioning this earlier.

[Anthadlas]

you have clearly never heard of the word "team"

Or "Reapers"

Modifié par Wraith 02, 02 avril 2013 - 02:46 .

[shodiswe]

/scratching my head

I'm not sure I see the problem, I think they used the term team aswell, whatever... Doesn't really matter to me.

[moater boat]

I agree that Bioware should have made more effort to make the game more immersive from a military standpoint. For example, I think it is silly that the alliance has something like 5 ranks, total. I didn't pick up on the overuse of the term squad, because I wasn't in one of the gun totin' branches, but as a former sailor I DID notice a lot of shipboard things that just didn't seem right. What's unfortunate is they didn't even need to hire military consultants to get it right. Simply asking the community would have provided more than enough insight.

[Rikketik]

I didn't even know that a squad was an official term in the military. I thought it was used in the general sense of describing a small group of people having a particular task. At least, that's how my dictionary describes it. Thesaurus treats the word as having two separate definitions when it comes to synonyms:

squad
noun
1 an assassination squad: team, crew, gang, band, cell, body, mob, outfit, force.
2 a firing squad: detachment, detail, unit, platoon, battery, troop, patrol, squadron, cadre, commando.

So the use of the word to refer to a (small) team, crew or gang seems correct to me. Although I don't know if that definition would be used in real life military as it is in Mass Effect, as it could cause confusion about what kind of squad you're talking about, I guess?

[GiroX-]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Sheesh, it's sad Han had to re-emphasize that it's a MINOR detail. Talk about nit picking...oh, not his complaint. The people criticizing HIM for doing something he wasn't. Irony, she is a harsh mistress, neh?

Course, I also happen to agree. A bit of the military nomenclature was off. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised reading the dossiers on the Shadow Broker's ship about Thane. Someone did some research in the proper ways to break a neck; most people don't know you have to immobilize the shoulder first. It's not done like that in the movies, after all.

Quit nitpicking my nitpicking.

[Khevan77]

Rikketik wrote...

I didn't even know that a squad was an official term in the military. I thought it was used in the general sense of describing a small group of people having a particular task. At least, that's how my dictionary describes it. Thesaurus treats the word as having two separate definitions when it comes to synonyms:

squad
noun
1 an assassination squad: team, crew, gang, band, cell, body, mob, outfit, force.
2 a firing squad: detachment, detail, unit, platoon, battery, troop, patrol, squadron, cadre, commando.

So the use of the word to refer to a (small) team, crew or gang seems correct to me. Although I don't know if that definition would be used in real life military as it is in Mass Effect, as it could cause confusion about what kind of squad you're talking about, I guess?

I'm a former soldier in the U.S. Army, and a squad is the official term for part of the Army's organization. 

Fire team is the smallest, and is mostly unofficial, but it consists of 3-4 soldiers, one with a SAW (squad automatic weapon) and usually one with an M16/M4 with a M203 grenade launcher attachment.  The other two carry standard M16/M4's.  Two or three fire teams, plus a squad leader (usually a sergeant, but sometimes a corporal) make up a squad, usually 8-12 men.  Usually 4-6 squads make a platoon, commanded by a lieutenant, with support from a platoon sergeant, usually a Sergeant First class (SFC).  A platoon is divided into two sections, each led by a section sergeant, usually a Staff Sergeant (SSG).  3-5 platoons (including a company command platoon) make up a company, 3-5 companies make up a battalion, etc etc.

So squad does have an official connotation for those familiar with military organization, and it's designed to be a part of a larger organization.  It doesn't have any means for supply and rearmament, for intel, for support of any kind on its own.  So having squads be the primary means of fighting a war (as opposed to companies/battalions) is a bit jarring to those who have experience with these things.

It's not a big deal.  It made me shake my head a coupla times throughout the game, but it was no worse than the left handed salutes.  I just kinda laughed and went on with the game, but it'd be great if this kinda thing was given the attention to detail to acknowledge in future games.  I won't cry if it doesn't get said attention, because it's not a huge deal, but it would be cool, considering my background in military matters.

[Rikketik]

OK, thanks for the explanation. So if I understand correctly, it's not the use of the word squad that's inherently faulty, but the use of the word withing the context of Shepard and their crew operating as part of the Alliance Navy and the use of the word in real life military context?

Or to put it simpler: if they hadn't used the word squad all the time, but instead words like team or crew, there wouldn't have been a problem?

Anyway, I will keep it in mind. I know it's not a big deal, but I almost exclusively refer to my team members as 'squadmates' or 'squad members'. I'll try to use more general terms from this point forward.

Modifié par Rikketik, 02 avril 2013 - 06:48 .

[Jayce]

OK if we're posting Bioware game nit picks, I'll throw mine into the ring.


STRAW BALES ARE MADE BY MACHINE!

If I have to walk through another medieval fantasy farmyard and see another bale, my head may explode.

[Han Shot First]

Rikketik wrote...

I didn't even know that a squad was an official term in the military. I thought it was used in the general sense of describing a small group of people having a particular task. At least, that's how my dictionary describes it. Thesaurus treats the word as having two separate definitions when it comes to synonyms:

squad
noun
1 an assassination squad: team, crew, gang, band, cell, body, mob, outfit, force.
2 a firing squad: detachment, detail, unit, platoon, battery, troop, patrol, squadron, cadre, commando.

So the use of the word to refer to a (small) team, crew or gang seems correct to me. Although I don't know if that definition would be used in real life military as it is in Mass Effect, as it could cause confusion about what kind of squad you're talking about, I guess?

Within military organizations a squad is a small tactical unit of between 8 and 14 men, depending on the country and military organization, commanded by a NCO. The organization varies slightly depending on the service and country, but the role of a squad (or section, as it is called in Commonwealth nations) is fairly similar across the board.

To give an idea of how squads are organized I'll use the US Marine Corps as an example:

Each rifle squad is composed of fire treams of four men each, in addition to a squad leader, who is typically a Sergeant or Corporal.

The fire teams are organized around a machine gun. The team leaders are typically Corporals or Lance Corporals who also function as the grenadier, carrying an M203. (an M16 with a 40mm grenade launcher attachment)
The automatic riflemen (a.k.a. machine gunner) functions as the second in command of the fire team. In addition to those two, there are also two riflemen, one who acts as a scout, and another who acts as an assistant to the machine gunner. (a.k.a. an A-gunner) The A-gunner carries extra ammunition for the machine gun as well as a spare barrel (they are swapped when they overheat), and helps the machine gunner spot and make adjustments on targets, and protects him from flankers.

To give an idea of how the squad fits in to larger units, 3 squads make up a platoon, 3 platoons make up a company, 3 companies make up a battalion, 3 battalions make up a regiment, and 3 regiments make up a division. I'm greatly simplifying things a bit in not including things like weapons platoons and companies (mortars, assault sections armed with rocket launchers, and medium and heavy machine gun sections) at the company and battalion levels, or support personnel at the battalion, regimental, or divisional levels, or artillery and armor support and such. And occasionally you will find units with more than 3 of the above, such as regiments that have 4 or 5 infantry battalions instead of 3. But it does give a general idea of where squads fit in on the bigger picture.

There are some differences between different nations, and even within different military organizations within a single nation. For example in the US Army squads are 8 man units of two fire teams, instead of the Marine Corps' three. But whether Army or Marine Corps, the squad performs more or less the same tactical role on the battlefield. The same holds true for squads in other nations' armed forces.

Basically whenever a military character uses the word 'squad' in Mass Effect it should mean that small tactical unit 8 to 14 men. An example of a mistake in using the word squad in an incorrect context would be in having a character say something like, "When my squad was stationed on Eden Prime." There were thousands of Alliance troops on Eden Prime, so it would be a more than a little bizarre for one squad to be stationed on Eden Prime totally detached from its parent battalion, without all the support, administrative, and logistical staff found at the battalion level. It would be better to say, "When my unit was stationed on Eden Prime," as it is vague and can mean anything, or to use a larger unit. "When my battalion (or regiment) was stationed on Eden Prime."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 avril 2013 - 07:49 .

[themikefest]

The use of the word squad didn't bother me to much.

I was more bothered with the saluting of the left hand. I found that disrespectful.

Also, when a character calls someone Captain, even if they aren't, continue to call them Captain instead of another rank. Just keep it consistent.

[Jayce]

Trouble is you're assuming that the Alliance organizes it's military purely along terrestrial lines and we've got no reason to assume that. We know most Alliance 'squads' are organized 3-6 man shore parties from a Frigate for instance. That doesn't mean that the Alliance doesn't also have properly organized Marine Divisions, in fact we know they do. They have Marine battalions too. Ashley explicitly says she served in the 2/32.

I honestly don't believe the term squad is inappropriate for how its used in the game, it just doesn't tally with how it's used in the US military.

[Rikketik]

Han Shot First wrote...
Basically whenever a military character uses the word 'squad' in Mass Effect it should mean that small tactical unit 8 to 14 men. An example of a mistake in using the word squad in an incorrect context would be in having a character say something like, "When my squad was stationed on Eden Prime." There were thousands of Alliance troops on Eden Prime, so it would be a more than a little bizarre for one squad to be stationed on Eden Prime totally detached from its parent battalion, without all the support, administrative, and logistical staff found at the battalion level. It would be better to say, "When my unit was stationed on Eden Prime," as it is vague and can mean anything, or to use a larger unit. "When my battalion (or regiment) was stationed on Eden Prime."

I'm not sure I understand. If a squad is ultimately part of a bigger unit (platoon, company, battalion, etc.), then shouldn't talking about "when my squad was stationed on Eden Prime" automatically imply that the parent battalion is stationed there too? I mean, why would your squad be there otherwise?

But the military and its terms and ranks have never been my strong point. Thanks anyway, though, I think I at least get it a bit better now.

Another question: I've read about left-handed salutes, but I can't recall when that happens in the games. The only picture I found on Google was of a random guard in ME2 doing it. Which is sloppy, but not as egregious as when Shepard or Hackett would do it.