43 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

Here's a question; Shepard enlists in the Alliance at age 18 (2172) and if a Sole Survivor is in command of a group of 50 marines by 2177 (the massacre on Akuze). Assuming Shepard went through offiicer training when enlisting in 2177 Shepard would be (I think) a First Lieutenant? Is that consistent with present day circumstances ( a lieutenant in charge of 50 marines)? And what's the correct term for a group of 50 (Joker calls it a squad in ME3).


Also keep in mind that by 2183 Shepard had been promoted to Lieutenant Commander, i.e. had been promoted 3 times in 11 years (if Shepard entered the Alliance as an officer). Is that consistent with the present or did Bioware fudge the numbers because "Commander" sounded better to them?


On topic, I imagine Mass Effect "squads" are meant to evoke a special forces feel, may want to apply that criteria to them.

[SinerAthin]

I definately would have liked to see some new titles, words and organization for the different races.

That's one of the reasons why I loved the idea of the Turian primarch or the clan-system the Krogan had, because it added some real uniqueness to the faction.

[themikefest]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Here's a question; Shepard enlists in the Alliance at age 18 (2172) and if a Sole Survivor is in command of a group of 50 marines by 2177 (the massacre on Akuze). Assuming Shepard went through offiicer training when enlisting in 2177 Shepard would be (I think) a First Lieutenant? Is that consistent with present day circumstances ( a lieutenant in charge of 50 marines)? And what's the correct term for a group of 50 (Joker calls it a squad in ME3).


Also keep in mind that by 2183 Shepard had been promoted to Lieutenant Commander, i.e. had been promoted 3 times in 11 years (if Shepard entered the Alliance as an officer). Is that consistent with the present or did Bioware fudge the numbers because "Commander" sounded better to them?


On topic, I imagine Mass Effect "squads" are meant to evoke a special forces feel, may want to apply that criteria to them.

yes. Here's what the conditions are to recieve a promotion.

http://usmilitary.ab...officerprom.htm

as far as 1st Lt. being in charge of 50

http://en.wikipedia....irst_lieutenant

Modifié par themikefest, 02 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[foilpainter]

I do not think it matters for the next game since Bioware has stated there will not be a military character like Shep, something different.

It is an interesting point.

[Han Shot First]

Rikketik wrote...


I'm not sure I understand. If a squad is ultimately part of a bigger unit (platoon, company, battalion, etc.), then shouldn't talking about "when my squad was stationed on Eden Prime" automatically imply that the parent battalion is stationed there too? I mean, why would your squad be there otherwise?

Since squads don't have their own support staffs (unlike battalions) such as motor transport, a battalion aid stration (a.k.a. a field hospital), supply and logistics ect, they don't deploy as detached from their parent battalions. Squads might conduct independent misions in support of their parent battalions objectives, but this is on a temporary basis and typically within their parent battalion's area of operations. They are dependent on their parent battalions for the beans, bullets, and bandages needed to keep functioning for an extended period.

Because of that people don't really say that they deploy with their squad. While technically true, it would be a deployment along with a larger parent unit such as a battalion or regiment, so saying you deployed someplace with your squad would seem to imply that the squad was deployed independent of its parent company & battalion.

Another question: I've read about left-handed salutes, but I can't recall when that happens in the games. The only picture I found on Google was of a random guard in ME2 doing it. Which is sloppy, but not as egregious as when Shepard or Hackett would do it.

In ME3 Shepard salutes Tali with his left hand IIRC.

[Khevan77]

Rikketik wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. If a squad is ultimately part of a bigger unit (platoon, company, battalion, etc.), then shouldn't talking about "when my squad was stationed on Eden Prime" automatically imply that the parent battalion is stationed there too? I mean, why would your squad be there otherwise?

This is why it's such a nitpicky kinda thing, and like Han and I are saying, not a big deal.  But saying that your squad was deployed someplace implies that just your squad went. That's just not how it's done, except in rare circumstances like Special Forces, where a small team deploys for one mission, usually fairly small in scope (but large in impact) and then returns to base with the rest of the battalion or other larger organization.  To those of use with military backgrounds, it just sounds wrong to hear "when my squad was stationed on Eden Prime."  It should have been "when my unit" or "when my battalion."

Han said it best that a squad needs a larger organization to supply the beans, bullets and bandages.  A squad is simply not equipped to procure that kinda thing without a larger group (with the ability to have a dedicated supply organization, and doctors, etc.)

Rikketik wrote...

Another question: I've read about left-handed salutes, but I can't recall when that happens in the games. The only picture I found on Google was of a random guard in ME2 doing it. Which is sloppy, but not as egregious as when Shepard or Hackett would do it.

Kaidan does this in ME3 after the Citadel Coup when you recruit him back onto the Normandy.  Shepard salutes left handed a few times during the series, it happens a few times here and there.  Again, not a huge deal, but it is somewhat disrespectful.  I don't hold it against Bioware since they probably don't have military experience, but it is a bit jarring, and it'd be nice to see it done correctly.  I know, I know, Alliance military may not have the same traditions as modern militaries, but if you use a convention from modern militaries (the salute) it should conform to modern standards, so as to not look wrong to a portion of your audience.

Again, not a big deal, but it'd be nice to see it done right.

[Wolfva2]

GiroX- wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Sheesh, it's sad Han had to re-emphasize that it's a MINOR detail. Talk about nit picking...oh, not his complaint. The people criticizing HIM for doing something he wasn't. Irony, she is a harsh mistress, neh?

Course, I also happen to agree. A bit of the military nomenclature was off. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised reading the dossiers on the Shadow Broker's ship about Thane. Someone did some research in the proper ways to break a neck; most people don't know you have to immobilize the shoulder first. It's not done like that in the movies, after all.

Quit nitpicking my nitpicking.

What can I say?  It's the primate in me!
<picks more nits>

[Kataphrut94]

It is a minor issue, but the squads in Mass Effect are far from modern military standard to begin with. It's fine in Mass Effect 2 because you're operating independently, but realistically it doesn't make sense in ME1 & especially ME3 for the commanding officer to personally lead every single away party and regularly expose himself to dangerous fire-fights. For that matter, neither should the powerful civilian information broker, the respected turian military advisor, the quarian fleet admiral or the last living Prothean be included in these parties. James or the VS could probably get away with commanding a fire-team and you could make a convincing case for EDI to come along, but the others? Not likely.

You know what? That's absolutely fine. Mass Effect is your classic Buck Rogers sci-fi hero fantasy, so there's nothing wrong with a few acceptable breaks from reality so long as we get to have fun with our galactic badass player character and his unique and entertaining mates.

[Sejborg]

I am also very upset about this.

[HolyAvenger]

Definitely the worst thing about ME.

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

Did anyone else notice that the word 'Squad' was overused in the series?

In the grand scheme of things this is a very, very minor complaint, and it in no way impacted by ability to enjoy the series. I'm merely bringing it up in the off chance that any devs might be lurking, as a suggestion for the next game.

There were a lot of instances throughout the series where a character with a military background refers to his or her squad in a context that implies that their squad was operating independently from a higher command. A character for example might say something like, "When my squad deployed to Eden Prime' instead of "When my battalion deployed to Eden Prime." In Paragon Lost, Vega deploys to Fehl Prime with a single squad. For those of you who never served in the military this distinction might seem like a big deal, but squads do not operate independently from a higher command. In fact the smallest military unit capable of independent operations is a battalion. A squad might perform duties where it is temporarily detached from its parent unit (a platoon or company), say for example a reconaissance patrol, but in these duties it is supporting the operations of its parent unit. It does not operate independently.

Also squads are not commanded by officers, they are commanded by enlisted NCOs and Staff NCOs. In the real world depending on the army, squads are commanded by Corporals, Sergeants, or Staff Sergeants, and their equivalents. In the Mass Effect Universe that means squads should be commanded by Service Chiefs or Gunnery Chiefs (like Ashley on Eden Prime), or their Turian, Asari, Salarian, ect. equivalents. Fire teams, which are 3 or 4 man teams that make up a squad of 8 to 14 people (depending on the country), are usually commanded by Corporals or Sergeants or their equivalents.
 
Officers command platoons and above. In the Mass Effect universe this means platoons should be commanded by 2nd Lieutenants and 1st Lieutenants (or the alien equivalents), while Staff Lieutenants (the equivalent of an infantry Captain it seems) should be commanding Companies. Battalions should be commanded by Staff Commanders and Regiments by Majors. (Major in the ME universe is the equivalent of a Colonel)

I would suggest that when writers without a military background have to write dialogue referring to a character's unit, to either do some research to make sure that dialogue checks out, or just to use the vague word 'unit' instead of a more specific term like 'squad.' A unit after all can mean anything from a squad all the way up to a division. A writer isn't going to make an error by using the word 'unit' instead.

All true, but you got to admit: Ranking Shepard by what role Shepard actually fills, rather than what appeals to player power fantasies, wouldn't exactly play as well.

'Corporal Shepard, Fire Team Leader, Savior of the Galaxy,'  doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?

[Dean_the_Young]

Rikketik wrote...

I didn't even know that a squad was an official term in the military. I thought it was used in the general sense of describing a small group of people having a particular task. At least, that's how my dictionary describes it. Thesaurus treats the word as having two separate definitions when it comes to synonyms:

squad
noun
1 an assassination squad: team, crew, gang, band, cell, body, mob, outfit, force.
2 a firing squad: detachment, detail, unit, platoon, battery, troop, patrol, squadron, cadre, commando.

So the use of the word to refer to a (small) team, crew or gang seems correct to me. Although I don't know if that definition would be used in real life military as it is in Mass Effect, as it could cause confusion about what kind of squad you're talking about, I guess?

Squad is used to describe a unit of relative size in a heirarchy: it's relative to other units in the same way a ship and boat are used differently. (A ship can carry boats: a boat does not carry ships.) Another example would be how body parts and systems are organized: cells form tissue form organs form organ systems form the body.

In the military, a soldier is the lowest common dominator, sort of like a cell. A fire team is a group of soldiers, usually between three and five soldiers. A squad is usually two teams. A platoon is a group of squads, though it may be informally broken down into sections (a two-squad section). Companies are made from platoons. Battalions are made from Companies, and are generally considered the lowest deployable unit: Battalion derives from the Roman army, or 'a unit capable of fighting a small battle.' Battionals form Brigades, Brigades form Divisions, and divisions are led by generals.


It's not really confusion as much as just one of those things that demonstrates that the writers aren't as familiar with the subject matter as people actively involved in such. I roll my eyes more about ME2's appeals to Shepard's leadership ability more than a care about describing the two-companion fire team as a squad.

[Bendigoe]

Unless you experience violent spasms at the word squad I don't see the problem.

I prefer an overuse of the word squad to "GO GO GO" or "ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE" and the famous "I WILL DESTROY YOU" before It somehow became Jack's catchphrase when I wasn't looking.
:happy:

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

Rikketik wrote...


I'm not sure I understand. If a squad is ultimately part of a bigger unit (platoon, company, battalion, etc.), then shouldn't talking about "when my squad was stationed on Eden Prime" automatically imply that the parent battalion is stationed there too? I mean, why would your squad be there otherwise?

Since squads don't have their own support staffs (unlike battalions) such as motor transport, a battalion aid stration (a.k.a. a field hospital), supply and logistics ect, they don't deploy as detached from their parent battalions. Squads might conduct independent misions in support of their parent battalions objectives, but this is on a temporary basis and typically within their parent battalion's area of operations. They are dependent on their parent battalions for the beans, bullets, and bandages needed to keep functioning for an extended period.

Because of that people don't really say that they deploy with their squad. While technically true, it would be a deployment along with a larger parent unit such as a battalion or regiment, so saying you deployed someplace with your squad would seem to imply that the squad was deployed independent of its parent company & battalion.

To put it another way: a soldier who's deployed would generally identify with their larger unit going over. 'I went with the Knight Stalker Battalion', or 'I went with 4th Infantry Division', rather than 'I went with my squad.'

Think of it as the equvialent of when someone in another state asks you where you live, you tend to say your state or city, not your street adress.

Another question: I've read about left-handed salutes, but I can't recall when that happens in the games. The only picture I found on Google was of a random guard in ME2 doing it. Which is sloppy, but not as egregious as when Shepard or Hackett would do it.

In ME3 Shepard salutes Tali with his left hand IIRC.

I believe it also occurs when the Cerberus guard and Legion.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 avril 2013 - 12:54 .

[Leonia]

The left handed salute didn't bother me NEARLY as much as the turians saluting on Tuchanka. That was the epitome of sloppiness. Why in the name of the spirits they wouldn't have a different salute from the Alliance, I don't even.. They could have stuck some flavour in and given them something unique or heck even the old salute the Romans used would have sufficed. Man, I've been waiting to complain about that for a year now.

Not that it took away from the story in anyway or ruined my experience. Just saying.

[shodiswe]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Here's a question; Shepard enlists in the Alliance at age 18 (2172) and if a Sole Survivor is in command of a group of 50 marines by 2177 (the massacre on Akuze). Assuming Shepard went through offiicer training when enlisting in 2177 Shepard would be (I think) a First Lieutenant? Is that consistent with present day circumstances ( a lieutenant in charge of 50 marines)? And what's the correct term for a group of 50 (Joker calls it a squad in ME3).


Also keep in mind that by 2183 Shepard had been promoted to Lieutenant Commander, i.e. had been promoted 3 times in 11 years (if Shepard entered the Alliance as an officer). Is that consistent with the present or did Bioware fudge the numbers because "Commander" sounded better to them?


On topic, I imagine Mass Effect "squads" are meant to evoke a special forces feel, may want to apply that criteria to them.

I think the thing is that Shepard is an N7 and the operate in smaller teams, they don't bring a batalion but instead infiltrate, and outflank and bring in superior equpment and training to handle themselves. a little bit like Spectres.

[Dean_the_Young]

leonia42 wrote...

The left handed salute didn't bother me NEARLY as much as the turians saluting on Tuchanka. That was the epitome of sloppiness. Why in the name of the spirits they wouldn't have a different salute from the Alliance, I don't even.. They could have stuck some flavour in and given them something unique or heck even the old salute the Romans used would have sufficed. Man, I've been waiting to complain about that for a year now.

Not that it took away from the story in anyway or ruined my experience. Just saying.

Can you imagine if the Turian salute was the Human equivalent of a secret hand-shake?

[AlexMBrennan]

It's not a contemporary military simulation (by the same logic we should still have detachments of 100 soldiers commanded by a Centurion because someone at some point used these ranks). End of discussion.

However, games do feature a certain amount of rank inflation (e.g. egregious cases like XCOM where your entire force will consist of nothing but colonels by endgame)

[NS Wizdum]

In a hypothetical future universe, where we have quantum entanglement communicators and tech implants, its possible that the improved communication would allow smaller military units to operate independently.