186 réponses à ce sujet

[Rixatrix]

Apologies if repost. Check out this article, if you haven't already:

It was a familiar refrain, but still a valuable one: Sure, it may be widely held that games with female protagonists make less money, but does that line of thinking even make sense?

Another video game writer, BioWare's David Gaider, addressed that line of thinking directly. In the middle of his talk titled "Sex in Video Games," the Dragon Age and Baldur's Gate writer put up a slide showing six video games with female protagonists featured on the cover, games like Beyond Good & Evil, No One Lives Forever and the new Tomb Raider.

"Is conventional industry wisdom correct?" Gaider asked, referring to the idea that games with women on the cover don't sell. "There's been a lot of discussion about female protagonists, especially putting them on the box. "This is not a large number of titles," he said, gesturing to the six games on the slide.


"This is over how many years? Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game that has a male protagonist and sells well sells well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?

"What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about a female protagonist? Do we need a title to sell ten million copies? Is that the bar, at which suddenly they're marketable? Are we requiring the female protagonist to work harder and sell more in order to prove herself? What kind of bull**** is that?"

kotaku.com/and-then-the-video-game-industry-woke-up-464888949

One of the many reasons I respect and am a fan of David Gaider and Bioware.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

While I'd certainly like more female protagonists, I'd prefer they were chosen for the right reasons, not because a developer wanted to make a statement, or any other BS.

And, really, my feelings on that extend to all the various social issues that people want to make video games a vehicle for, whether it's gender disparity, or sexual orientation, or race, or etc.

As for the actual issue at hand, concerning whether games with female protagonists sell, until people started writing articles to that effect recently, I never even realized it was an issue (that games with female protagonists don't sell), as sex-and all the underlying tones-definitely sells.

There's a reason you see so many female characters in MMOs (or really, any game that lets you choose a female). The only reason I think femShepard didn't have as high a percent of the ME playerbase is because she wasn't particularly sexualized (one might even call her quite butch, since she appears to have shared the same skeleton as the male body, and Hale put her utmost effort to sound like every butch military female stereotype in existence). 

Of course, that changes the dynamics of the question, and makes you wonder if a woman has to be sexy in some way for her to pull off being a video game protagonist superstar. That's a thorny issue, and the simple answer would be yes, but I'd hardly call it a video game issue, because people tend to want better than average in their women, regardless of media: books, tv, movies, etc. And, to be blunt, we ask the same extremes for men, it's just that in the case of male characters, we choose other qualities than whether or not they have a nice ass, but nevertheless still qualities the average man doesn't exhibit. 

In the end, I think females can make fine video game protagonists, but who's really saying they can't?

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 02 avril 2013 - 04:47 .

[Twisted Path]

There was some article a while back where they pointed out that in all these new games that were coming out the hero on the cover was a brown haired guy with brown eyes, short hair and stubble. I think that's the hero image that's been focus tested to appeal the most to heterosexual males (stubble makes you look rugged!) and it's also just really really boring.

I'm all for a wider variety of video game heroes in general, and not for any affirmative action reason. I'm just tired of playing white-rugged-McManjaw over and over and over.

[Direwolf0294]

One thing I've noticed is that games with female protagonists tend to be in low combat settings. Portal is a puzzle game, Mirror's Edge had some shooting but it's primarily a platformer. Lot of point and click adventure games seem to star women.

What we need is more Tomb Raider style games. More female action heroes. More female space marines. More female fantasy heroes that aren't wearing bikini armour.

BioWare's not really the company to give us that, because they make RPGs that let you create your own character rather than having a set protagonist, but hopefully they'll be able to influence other developers who do have games with set protagonists into giving female leads a chance.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

One thing I've noticed is that games with female protagonists tend to be in low combat settings. Portal is a puzzle game, Mirror's Edge had some shooting but it's primarily a platformer. Lot of point and click adventure games seem to star women.

What we need is more Tomb Raider style games. More female action heroes. More female space marines. More female fantasy heroes that aren't wearing bikini armour.

BioWare's not really the company to give us that, because they make RPGs that let you create your own character rather than having a set protagonist, but hopefully they'll be able to influence other developers who do have games with set protagonists into giving female leads a chance.

Lightning from FFXIII is quite respectful,though her main outfit in the new game is quite uh weird and a bit more revealing /: lol

[Twisted Path]

Yeah, new Tomb Raider feels like a gender-flipped Die Hard-style movie in a lot of places and it's glorious. Love all the points where the enemies are freaking out because "It's just one girl!" "She's killing us all!"

Now, that's not necessarily something I would want to see in a fantasy roleplaying game like Dragon Age. One of the things I really liked in Origins was that, regardless of gender or background, you could play your character as a tough stoic action hero (I loved the part where you were with the Warden recruits and could constantly call them cowards,) or you could actually play your character as kind of a wimpy coward who's forced into things.

They cut that out in DA2, where no matter what everyone's constantly talking about what an awesome hero Hawke is and you never get the option to act like a coward. Sad, it was a nice little roleplaying touch.

[9TailsFox]

Make cover white page and write Dragon age 3. You save money for actual game. No one care how cover looks especially not people like me who buy game digital version. If you need pretty pictures just make male and female protagonist stand side by side.

And like Direwolf write "BioWare's not really the company to give us that, because they make RPGs that let you create your own character rather than having a set protagonist" So DA don't have this non existent problem. Stop caring what gender is protagonist and start caring to crate good game.

[Commander Kurt]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

While I'd certainly like more female protagonists, I'd prefer they were chosen for the right reasons, not because a developer wanted to make a statement, or any other BS.

Really? Then, what's the right reason?

[Bob Garbage]

The gender of a game's protagonist literally has no affect on whether or not I buy it or like it.

[Asch Lavigne]

I wonder how much the "it has a girl on the cover so its a chick game" is considered when it comes to marketing. Especially since some people already think DA is "girly" because of the romances. Apparently, its ok in ME but not in DA? Weird.

To clarify: I do not think this way. But there are those who do.

[TheJediSaint]

Bob Garbage wrote...

The gender of a game's protagonist literally has no affect on whether or not I buy it or like it.

As a man, I can say emphaticlly that I am tired of every other game protagonist being a roided-out doofus.   I fully support more female protagonists simply for the sake of variety.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 02 avril 2013 - 06:15 .

[Bob Garbage]

Not really sure what games you've been playing, but, stop it maybe?

[Chaos Lord Malek]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

The gender of a game's protagonist literally has no affect on whether or not I buy it or like it.

As a man, I can say emphaticlly that I am tired of every other game protagonist being a roided-out doofus.   I fully support more female protagonists simply for the sake of variety.

I actually agree with Jedi!

Just look at it - Geralt, Kratos, Nathan Drake,  Master Chef, Solid Snake, Batman, Spiderman, every single Assassin Creed game had a male protagonist (except Liberation, but that's off shot),.etc.... And i am not even counting FPS games (which i don't play at all) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Bioshocks, Far Cry etc...

And even the games with choice are adveristed with males - Mass Effect (WHOLE SERIES), both Dragon Ages, Saints Row, etc... I think only Jade Empire had a girl there on cover.

And i don't see future anymore brighter - there is Remember Me, but i got the feeling the game is going to be flop (it has horrible voice acting already). Then we have Garret coming back as Thief, probably another Deus Ex with Adam again, a pile of stupid First Person Shoters like Battlefield 4, which are totaly piece of ****.

The only game with Female protagonist that came in past 5 years and made any success is Tomb Raider - for me both Underworld and the new one(Reborn) were very good, (game of the year probably or at least until Rome 2 comes out). And maybe we can also count Heart of the Swarm, but i don't play Blizzard games anymore, as their just trainwreck of cliche.

There is stil place on the market for making a female character in fantasy setting, although i think eventually Sony's Santa Monica will come up with some Xena version or Valkira from Northen myths.

[Topsider]

Well, to be fair, the high production cost of modern games is not a "risk taking" environment. The publisher is investing millions of dollars in these products, so of course they're going to play it safe and chase the largest market - usually male. If they think a female protagonist on the box would lead to less sales, that's a good enough reason (for them) not to have one. This is harder to defend when you can choose either gender, or is integral to the story - both should be on the cover. Still, it's easy for us to criticize the marketing of games since we don't spend a penny financing their development.

Games already need an incredible amount of sales to be considered 'successful', so anything that could hurt the bottom line is a publisher's main concern. Even the new Tomb Raider failed to meet its sales target, which was probably an absurd figure they had no hope of achieving. Lara Croft is a popular character and can sell a few million copies on name recognition alone... but nowhere near CoD numbers.

[Kulyok]

As a girl, I enjoy playing female protagonists very much. I imagine many male players want to play protagonists of their own gender, too. So, I think having two protagonists, male and female, is the best and most balanced approach: having only male ones or only female ones just... doesn't feel as good. Especially after many fine Bioware titles that offer both.

[Direwolf0294]

Kulyok wrote...

As a girl, I enjoy playing female protagonists very much. I imagine many male players want to play protagonists of their own gender, too. So, I think having two protagonists, male and female, is the best and most balanced approach: having only male ones or only female ones just... doesn't feel as good. Especially after many fine Bioware titles that offer both.

I can't speak for other guys, but I personally prefer playing female protagonists (cause I'm weird I guess).

For RPGs, two protagonists is a definite. Really, it should be a requirement of all RPGs to include a character creator. For other games though, I don't think it would be a good idea. Sometimes, sure. With something like Halo Reach it was cool. But I feel having it included in all games would just limit the story and characters since they'd have to write around the idea of having two different versions of the protagonist.

Games just need to start expanding on the range of protagonists they feature, that's all. And not just with gender, but with ethnicity and sexuality too. It would be great if an AAA game came out that featured a set protagonist who was gay for example, because at the moment the only gay protagonists are limited to BioWare style RPGs where it's the players choice.

[Chiramu]

The person who said female protagonists don't sell video games should check out more games imo. What type of games has that guy been playing?

On Snes FF6, female protagonist, Terra. Before Lara Croft. Um, Samus and Metroid? FF13 and Lightning?

Who the hell is the wanker that stated that comment anyway?

EDIT: whoops I forgot a big powerful woman, Sarah Kerrigan? In Heart of the Swarm, or all of Starcraft, she's one woman who has had a tremendous impact on the whole story.

Modifié par Chiramu, 02 avril 2013 - 07:55 .

[Sister Goldring]

More and more these days I find that I don't want to support a rpg (or any game that offers extensive customisation of the PC) that doesn't give me the option to select gender.

It's not that I have anything against playing a male PC but I want to be given the option to play as a female hero. I know it's almost heresy on these boards to admit it but I've never played either of the Witcher games because I just couldn't get into Geralt. I believe they're probably great games (and I did start the Witcher 1- I think played the introduction castle bit) but I found that there was nothing there for me because I'm just tired of role-playing the same stoic muscle men over and over again. After 20+ years as a rpger I've had my fill of it I guess.

These days I'm inclined to only support franchises that value me as a female consumer by providing for me the option of a female protagonist.

[Plaintiff]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

While I'd certainly like more female protagonists, I'd prefer they were chosen for the right reasons, not because a developer wanted to make a statement, or any other BS.

And, really, my feelings on that extend to all the various social issues that people want to make video games a vehicle for, whether it's gender disparity, or sexual orientation, or race, or etc.

What are the "right" reasons for making a protagonist female (or black or Asian or gay or whatever)? Why do these characters require special justification for their presence, while straight white men dont?

[Nashimura]

I love that Bioware have always given you a choice, that is the magic word to please everyone.

[Iraea]

 Ken Levine (Bioshock) gave some interesting insight into the 'cover' problem (there was a controversy about the 'brown-haired-dude' on the Infinite cover). It's not strictly male/female, but nevertheless enlightening.
In case you don't know the video

Seems that the game makers are willing, but the customers don't get it.

For myself: NOLF is one of my favourite games ever.
Sometimes I feel a story gets better with a female lead - like in the 'Alien' movie.

[Darth Krytie]

Plaintiff wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

While I'd certainly like more female protagonists, I'd prefer they were chosen for the right reasons, not because a developer wanted to make a statement, or any other BS.

And, really, my feelings on that extend to all the various social issues that people want to make video games a vehicle for, whether it's gender disparity, or sexual orientation, or race, or etc.

What are the "right" reasons for making a protagonist female (or black or Asian or gay or whatever)? Why do these characters require special justification for their presence, while straight white men dont?

Obviously, the right reasons are: 1. Someone made a game about making sandwiches and doing laundry. 2. Someone made a game about an overly sexualized character flouncing about in unrealistic clothing. 3. Someone wanted to capitalize of fear-mongering politics about other races. 4. Someone made a culturally insensitive, badly represented game about the distant past, in an attempt to fetishize the 'exotic'


I'm tired of the assumption that having women in games is any level of 'pandering'. I think that nine times out of ten, if the protag can be a dude, the protag can also be a lady.  All that's really required is a person, regardless of gender. And if you believe that, then why not have it be a lady? One of the most cited reasons why people should shut up about having more female protags is 'all that should matter is that the game is good'. If that's true, then why not have more ladies instead of dudes? It doesn't matter, after all, whether the protag is a lady or a dude. But, the truth is, most of the hesitation to have more inclusion is just bluster by people that don't want to share the sandbox( and most people will never admit they think that there's something inherently bad or weaker or lesser about having female protags)

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 02 avril 2013 - 09:08 .

[Dutchess]

DA's trailers featured a male protagonist. DA2's box had male Hawke on it. Not sure Gaider/Bioware has the right to say this problem needs to be challenged while not having done that themself so far. If you want change, begin by looking at yourself and take action from there.

[Sejborg]

Am I the only one who remembers when fans on this forum told bioware they wanted female protagonists but got turned down because bioware didn't believe they could succesfully market a game that way.

It will be interesting to see if bioware will follow through or if this is just talk from Gaider. I'm guessing on the latter.

It's kinda funny having Gaider running around bashing other games, all the while his own games is just the same.

Modifié par Sejborg, 02 avril 2013 - 09:56 .

[Wulfram]

renjility wrote...

DA's trailers featured a male protagonist. DA2's box had male Hawke on it. Not sure Gaider/Bioware has the right to say this problem needs to be challenged while not having done that themself so far. If you want change, begin by looking at yourself and take action from there.

Gaider isn't Bioware.  Gaider isn't in charge of the box art.  Bioware hasn't said anything.