186 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

[Androme]

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

[whykikyouwhy]

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

But at the heart of a many a game is a story. And stories touch upon the many shades and hues of life, they relate the adventures, trials and tribulations of numerous people. 

I don't think devs are trying to create any sort of "industry thing" - rather, many are trying to ensure that the game worlds are as broad and varied as the world that the players live in.

[Topsider]

renjility wrote...

DA's trailers featured a male protagonist. DA2's box had male Hawke on it. Not sure Gaider/Bioware has the right to say this problem needs to be challenged while not having done that themself so far. If you want change, begin by looking at yourself and take action from there.

DA3 might have a separate male and female trailer. It's quite likely in fact. However, the best anyone can hope for on the box is both protagonists. There's almost zero chance of a female-only cover... (unless it's reversible).

And speaking of Bioware covers, I seem to recall that Wu the Lotus Blossom and Bastila Shan were both fairly prominent (Jade Empire and Kotor respectively). When in doubt, it's better to use the main cast - like the Sacred Ashes trailer - or posing dramatically on the box, instead of focusing on a default protagonist who can be changed during character creation. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't mind male or female lead characters as long as they fit the narrative.  

So when someone comes along and tells me that games like Bioshock needs a female lead, I look at them as if they are mentally retarded because Bioshock has firmly established that it is about "a man, a lighthouse, a city". Similarly, if someone comes along and tells me that Tomb Raider should feature a male lead, I will have the same reaction.

The main issue is how we portray both male & females in video games. Women can claim that they are underepresented in the video game community & when they are represented they are done sone in a sexually objectified manner which is sexist. The thing is similarly, men are being subjected to a sexist treatment because many video games portray men as some emotionless bulky thug who has no intelligence who just kills everything in his path. Men are not like that in reality. We are all not brutishly bulky, some of us are quite smart and rational & we do like to be diplomatic and not kill everything. 

That does not mean we should stop making such games totally because games are to many a form of fantasy fulfillment. It just means that we should stop misrepresenting both sexes in a flawed manner all the time. 

So instead of addressing the issue of female protagonist, we should address the issue with protagonists in general regardless of gender first. Issues like does shooting and killing everything in sight all the time indicative of personal strength and determination ?. 

Modifié par The Sin, 02 avril 2013 - 11:02 .

[fchopin]

J. Reezy wrote...
Dat already established name tbh.

It is an established name because Lara was created for games many years ago.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Topsider wrote...

renjility wrote...

DA's trailers featured a male protagonist. DA2's box had male Hawke on it. Not sure Gaider/Bioware has the right to say this problem needs to be challenged while not having done that themself so far. If you want change, begin by looking at yourself and take action from there.

DA3 might have a separate male and female trailer. It's quite likely in fact. However, the best anyone can hope for on the box is both protagonists. There's almost zero chance of a female-only cover... (unless it's reversible).

And speaking of Bioware covers, I seem to recall that Wu the Lotus Blossom and Bastila Shan were both fairly prominent (Jade Empire and Kotor respectively). When in doubt, it's better to use the main cast - like the Sacred Ashes trailer - or posing dramatically on the box, instead of focusing on a default protagonist who can be changed during character creation. 

I don't actually understand this fascination with covers. Shouldn't people judge the value and worth of a character by actually playing the game & not just glancing the covers ? To me a cover should mainly have the title logo & the bar code for the price tag...anything else doesn't matter...

[Kidd]

fchopin wrote...

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I'd love to be - but didn't the game sell less than expected, which was the final straw that broke Square-Enix's management's back? I recall reading as much.

[Mykel54]

A female protagonist only needs to sell the same as the male one, not more, i don´t know why Gaider says that it must sell more. The rules of the market are the same for everyone, this whole thing that women need to "prove themselves" to be on the cover is frankly very silly.

The reason why you see so few women in the cover of videogames, is the same reason why you see so few men in the cover of fashion magazines. The publisher knows what the biggest audience is for his product and acts accordingly. For videogames the biggest audience is still males, even if females are catching up on some genres, but the safe thing to do is to put on the cover something you know will work for sure.

It´s not so complicated. Anyhow bioware does a good job because it gives protagonists of both sexes, but still the cover shows where the target audience is, and that is not going to change until female gamers are at least as numerous as male gamers are.

Modifié par Mykel54, 02 avril 2013 - 11:24 .

[Dutchess]

Wulfram wrote...

renjility wrote...

DA's trailers featured a male protagonist. DA2's box had male Hawke on it. Not sure Gaider/Bioware has the right to say this problem needs to be challenged while not having done that themself so far. If you want change, begin by looking at yourself and take action from there.

Gaider isn't Bioware.  Gaider isn't in charge of the box art.  Bioware hasn't said anything.

I am aware of that, yet Gaider's position as a lead writer at Bioware is what granted him the authority to speak about this subject. Gaider talking on conventions like these can serve as publicity for Bioware. As a consequence, what he says will reflect on Bioware and their games. So if you're going to talk about "the industry as a whole" and things that are wrong with said industry, and say that things need to change, but the company you work for so far is guilty of doing the exact same thing... yeah, huzzah. Words are cheap. Saying you disagree with the way things go is pretty easy. I can do that too. Of course Gaider speaking out about things like this can be a good thing, and it's better than not saying anything at all, but again: when you represent a company that does the same thing you're speaking out against, it does hurt your credibility somewhat.
That, and Gaider does tend to defend Bioware in subjects like these. Granted, he is not mentioned doing it in this article, so I'm going a bit off-topic with this, but in the recent interview about sexism he did do his best to claim they were doing it right in DA2, even though there was sexism present in that game as well.

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I'd love to be - but didn't the game sell less than expected, which was the final straw that broke Square-Enix's management's back? I recall reading as much.

As I understand it, sales for Tomb Raider weren't bad at all, but Square-Enix had ridiculously high expectations (selling 5 million copies or something like that, I think?) and that target wasn't met. It seemed more to be mismanagement and such than the game being a flop.

Modifié par renjility, 02 avril 2013 - 11:28 .

[SilentK]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I'd love to be - but didn't the game sell less than expected, which was the final straw that broke Square-Enix's management's back? I recall reading as much.

It has sold very well, but not enough for Square Enix.

http://www.fz.se/art...bt-men-inte-nog

[IoeShepard]

The Sin wrote...

I don't mind male or female lead characters as long as they fit the narrative.  

So when someone comes along and tells me that games like Bioshock needs a female lead, I look at them as if they are mentally retarded because Bioshock has firmly established that it is about "a man, a lighthouse, a city". Similarly, if someone comes along and tells me that Tomb Raider should feature a male lead, I will have the same reaction.

The main issue is how we portray both male & females in video games. Women can claim that they are underepresented in the video game community & when they are represented they are done sone in a sexually objectified manner which is sexist. The thing is similarly, men are being subjected to a sexist treatment because many video games portray men as some emotionless bulky thug who has no intelligence who just kills everything in his path. Men are not like that in reality. We are all not brutishly bulky, some of us are quite smart and rational & we do like to be diplomatic and not kill everything. 

That does not mean we should stop making such games totally because games are to many a form of fantasy fulfillment. It just means that we should stop misrepresenting both sexes in a flawed manner all the time. 

So instead of addressing the issue of female protagonist, we should address the issue with protagonists in general regardless of gender first. Issues like does shooting and killing everything in sight all the time indicative of personal strength and determination ?. 

Good point !

regards

[Sir George Parr]

@Topsider: Having both protagonists on the cover would probably wind up confusing new players to the series. The reversible sleeves as seen with ME3 would be better and it remains inclusive. I would just prefer that if the reversible sleeve was to be used that the woman on the cover was the default version you got in game or vice versa. Instead of the Female Shepard on the cover barely resembling the default Female Shepard in the game.
It would be a change to see a Female protagonist trailer. The Female Shepard trailer was such a refreshing change.
How can you judge the value and worth of a character when the marketing and promotion of the game doesn't adequately acknowledge the existence of the female protagonist. Outside of a promotional still for DA2 there was little information about Female Hawke. The trailer for the game showed Male Hawke, there was nothing else to help inform my opinion as to what the female protagonist would be like.
I had to watch a you tube clip of the DA2 demo in the order to have some idea of what Female Hawke was like, i liked the VA and it interested me enough to buy. As a consumer i really shouldn't have to do that as a trailer showing Female Hawke in action should have existed alongside the Male Hawke trailer. So without the female protagonist being on a more equal footing with male protagonist in the promotion of the game. It becomes an expensive way to judge the value and worth of the character if you have to buy the game blind.

[kumquats]

We will see how well Beyond sales. Tomb Raider is a good game, but I read a lot of comments from die hard fans and they just missed the original. The same can be said for a game like Max Payne. It's nice to see old friends again, but the DEV seem to kill everything, people loved about the original.
Anyway. I believe that Beyond will sell well, and some people in the industrie must think the same thing, since hiring Ellen Page can't be cheap. :>

[Topsider]

fchopin wrote...

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

Tomb Raider "sold very well" and still didn't hit sales expectations. It's basically a failure to Square Enix. The game is good, but I'm sure the development and marketing costs were considerable. Budgets are insane. AAA games are probably unsustainable in the long run, unless it's a mega brand such as GTA and Call of Duty. Wading into this scene with female protagonists is a risk not many publishers are willing to take.

It'll be interesting to see how Remember Me does, not having an established name like Lara Croft to fall back on.

[fchopin]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Only one thing to say, Tomb Raider, best game for me 2013 with only a female pc and has sold very well.

People should stop talking about this rubbish as it does not matter to real gamers what the cover has.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I'd love to be - but didn't the game sell less than expected, which was the final straw that broke Square-Enix's management's back? I recall reading as much.

The game sold about 3.4 million but they expected 5 million but 3.4 million is a high number for me.
How many million did DA2 sell and what was the expected number? We will never know the answer.

[fchopin]

J. Reezy wrote...

Duh. You're telling me that as if my reply impies that the fact was lost on me. Tomb Raider being able to sale (besides being a good game) also has to do with the fact that Tomb Raider is an established IP that's been around for about 16 years. Hence my, "Dat already established name" comment.

What was lost on you is that they created a female pc many years ago which is still selling games and still people are saying that female games don’t sell.
 
People should wake up and recognize that we are in the 21st century now and equality should apply to all not just females.

[Darth Krytie]

The Sin wrote...

I don't mind male or female lead characters as long as they fit the narrative.  

So when someone comes along and tells me that games like Bioshock needs a female lead, I look at them as if they are mentally retarded because Bioshock has firmly established that it is about "a man, a lighthouse, a city". Similarly, if someone comes along and tells me that Tomb Raider should feature a male lead, I will have the same reaction.

The main issue is how we portray both male & females in video games. Women can claim that they are underepresented in the video game community & when they are represented they are done sone in a sexually objectified manner which is sexist. The thing is similarly, men are being subjected to a sexist treatment because many video games portray men as some emotionless bulky thug who has no intelligence who just kills everything in his path. Men are not like that in reality. We are all not brutishly bulky, some of us are quite smart and rational & we do like to be diplomatic and not kill everything. 

That does not mean we should stop making such games totally because games are to many a form of fantasy fulfillment. It just means that we should stop misrepresenting both sexes in a flawed manner all the time. 

So instead of addressing the issue of female protagonist, we should address the issue with protagonists in general regardless of gender first. Issues like does shooting and killing everything in sight all the time indicative of personal strength and determination ?. 

The main problem with this argument is this: If you claim that men are subjected to the same sexist treatment, we'd have to accept the premise that men are portrayed that way to titillate the audience. That men are portrayed that way to arouse the audience...and that is patently false. The way men are portrayed is a male power fantasy. Men aren't drawn that way in games to turn their male audience on, they're drawn that way so men can feel powerful when they play. Also, if you want to claim that men both get distressing treatment, there would have to be a wealth of games where men are irrelevant to the storyline and are simply eyecandy and serve no purpose other than to provide womenpain so they can complete their heroic journey. Or if men are only around to play the scantily clad dudes in distress while the woman-characters, in proper armour and everything, go around and defeat the evil villainess to free her dudely love. 

So, yes, men in games are not realistic, but they're not treated primarily as sex objects...if they exist in a game at all. 

[WinterCrow]

Plaintiff wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

While I'd certainly like more female protagonists, I'd prefer they were chosen for the right reasons, not because a developer wanted to make a statement, or any other BS.

And, really, my feelings on that extend to all the various social issues that people want to make video games a vehicle for, whether it's gender disparity, or sexual orientation, or race, or etc.

What are the "right" reasons for making a protagonist female (or black or Asian or gay or whatever)? Why do these characters require special justification for their presence, while straight white men dont?

I think you're getting this guy's comment the wrong way. EVERY character ever developed needs proper justification to exist, even if it's the stereotypical male, it needs proper background to work in a game.

Making the gender (or race, or sexual orientation) a random decision just to adress a certain kind of consumer, make any statement or simply look open minded won't work. imagine an asian guy in some european medieval world with no apparent reason for him to be there, would that work? That's what the "right reason" is about.

Every character is wright or wrong depending on the context. Kratos (God of War) wouldn't have made any sense as a woman, but female Shepard does and it's really enjoyable.

And back to the point of the thread, as many other users here, I don't really care about the gender of the main character, it's never been a relevant thing to me. The plot, the gameplay, the level design and the art in the game are. Choices are cool though, and Bioware has always had that.

[billy the squid]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Apologies if repost. Check out this article, if you haven't already:

It was a familiar refrain, but still a valuable one: Sure, it may be widely held that games with female protagonists make less money, but does that line of thinking even make sense?

Another video game writer, BioWare's David Gaider, addressed that line of thinking directly. In the middle of his talk titled "Sex in Video Games," the Dragon Age and Baldur's Gate writer put up a slide showing six video games with female protagonists featured on the cover, games like Beyond Good & Evil, No One Lives Forever and the new Tomb Raider.

"Is conventional industry wisdom correct?" Gaider asked, referring to the idea that games with women on the cover don't sell. "There's been a lot of discussion about female protagonists, especially putting them on the box. "This is not a large number of titles," he said, gesturing to the six games on the slide.


"This is over how many years? Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game that has a male protagonist and sells well sells well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?

"What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about a female protagonist? Do we need a title to sell ten million copies? Is that the bar, at which suddenly they're marketable? Are we requiring the female protagonist to work harder and sell more in order to prove herself? What kind of bull**** is that?"

kotaku.com/and-then-the-video-game-industry-woke-up-464888949

One of the many reasons I respect and am a fan of David Gaider and Bioware.

Sorry, but what utter horsesh!te. Over generalisation is a terrible thing, and shouldn't be done.

Conventional wisdom is that a woman on the cover wouldn't make the game sell any better than a man on the cover. Unless we would like to go with the general juvenile covers ie: boobs, which I think everyone agrees are daft, and have no bearing on why people purchase a game other than maybe the 15-18 year old boy demographics, and that's a marketing idea that is sketchy at best.

More to the point should have been why are there not women protagonists in games, the box art? Really, that's an issue? Pfffffft.

Secondly he created a false equivalency. Who said games sell well because of a male protagonist? Nice straw man. Stating that a game won't sell or will sell poorly because it has a female protagonist, while not stictly untrue is going to be heavily dependent on who, and what demographic the game is targeted at. CoD, BF3 /4 look at the vast bulk of players who play those games. Few are infact women, despite the number of women according to some figures who have or regularly play video games increasing to about 30%, not an insignisficant number. Huge difference, which as someone who works in the industry Gaider should know about. 

What has essentially been done in this article is lump the entire industry together in a single demographic and say it's not progressive enough. Disregarding the practicilities and numbers which dictate and influence how money and investments are channeled. But, if people are going to disregard fiscal and numeric data, then they can carry on banging their own little drum. 

For instance, CoD 3 sold 6 million copies in the first day! Are you going to risk fiddling with that? When Tomb Raider sold 3.4 million and was considered a failure by the publisher, despite enjoying that game myself. Now Tomb Raider is an established franchise, but considering the fiscal position of many publishers, retrenching in the face of inflating costs and declining revenue is the norm and the sensible option by trying not to drive one's company into the ground by aiming a project at a new demographic, regardless of the what the data dictates and run the risk of having it flop, finding you are now sitting on a loss of £10 million. It's opportunity cost and risk analysis at play.

But yeah, okay well just say that we need games with a woman as protagonist to sell 10 million for it to be successful. We'll just ignore. Spiraling costs, declining revenue, inflation, shrinking market and increased competition, stagnation, the end of platform life cycle, widespread economic dowturn and retrenchment etc. And go for a high profile development aimed at the largest demographic which has been traditionally young men and has no relation to their interests or motivations about why they buy a particular game. 

Or is Gaider under the impression that games outside of the large mainstream market like CoD, Battlefield,GoW Sports games is the place to push for industry change? How about he take a look closer to home in BioWare's selection. Where it does make sense to try that.... or have the Overlords at EA determined that it presents an additional  risk, like every other publisher as they try to expand their market base? Pot calling the kettle black.

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 avril 2013 - 12:26 .

[BeatoSama]

Edit: nvm

Modifié par BeatoSama, 02 avril 2013 - 12:20 .

[fchopin]

Darth Krytie wrote...

So, yes, men in games are not realistic, but they're not treated primarily as sex objects...if they exist in a game at all. 

Some of them are, if you take Zevran in DAO he is mostly in the game as a sex object.
I am not blind, i can see the characters in the game but i don’t complain because life is not perfect and you will get all sorts of people in life. What i do mind is females complaining that only females have it bad in a game which is not true.
 
If an artist is not free to express themselves to create stories with human imperfections then we will never have a good game as all people like to have excitement and some sort of challenge for their fantasy.