186 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

fchopin wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Duh. You're telling me that as if my reply impies that the fact was lost on me. Tomb Raider being able to sale (besides being a good game) also has to do with the fact that Tomb Raider is an established IP that's been around for about 16 years. Hence my, "Dat already established name" comment.

What was lost on you is that they created a female pc many years ago which is still selling games and still people are saying that female games don’t sell.
 
People should wake up and recognize that we are in the 21st century now and equality should apply to all not just females.

In that it's an already established franchise made at a time when costs were infact lower, and a myriad of other issues, which I'm not going to rattle off now, I don't have time. It was a risk to do, like all new IPs. Try pitching that to a publisher now. 

People should recognise economics, finances and numeric data.

Am I the only one that sees trend in finances and markets round here? It's also a reason I wouldn't countanence investing in the gaming industry, frankly I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft barge poll.

[Fast Jimmy]

fchopin wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Duh. You're telling me that as if my reply impies that the fact was lost on me. Tomb Raider being able to sale (besides being a good game) also has to do with the fact that Tomb Raider is an established IP that's been around for about 16 years. Hence my, "Dat already established name" comment.

What was lost on you is that they created a female pc many years ago which is still selling games and still people are saying that female games don’t sell.
 
People should wake up and recognize that we are in the 21st century now and equality should apply to all not just females.

Let's not forget that Tomb Raider was able to sell as an established IP 16 years ago in no small part because of the way the artists... let's say "utilized the 3-D technology"... to render Lara Croft's model to appeal to your average teenage male. If you want to say over-sexualization sells, I won't disagree. But I'm not sure that is the same as saying a female protagonist will generate the same level sales. 

I'm not saying it isn't impossible or that I never want to see a female protag, but I simply do not think that Tomb Raider is the best shining example of it. A franchise that has name recognition for putting a DD Barbie on the cover (even if the reboot is more of a realistic rendering of the character model) is still not exactly a sterling case of women's lib. 

I think the success and reception of the new "Beyond: Two Souls" game might be a better gauge. Since that character is based off a real life actress, one who, while very cute, would also not be top pick for a Victoria's Secret cover model either. A game that is based off of real story and strong performance. And who, nearly coincidentally, has a female lead. 

[fchopin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Let's not forget that Tomb Raider was able to sell as an established IP 16 years ago in no small part because of the way the artists... let's say "utilized the 3-D technology"... to render Lara Croft's model to appeal to your average teenage male. If you want to say over-sexualization sells, I won't disagree. But I'm not sure that is the same as saying a female protagonist will generate the same level sales. 

Lara in Tomb Raider is one of the best character creations i have seen in a game and wish Bioware can do something similar.
 
I have no idea how Beyond: Two Souls will sell but i know i will be getting Remember Me when it comes out.

[Wulfram]

Beyond seems fairly unique and interesting, which to my mind makes it a poor guage - if you want to test the impact of having a female protagonist, then you need to as much as possible keep everything else similar.

I guess the ideal experiment would be to take something like the ME3 flip cover and send half the stores the male version and half the stores the female version and see which ones sold more. Alas, businesses seem more interested in making money than carrying out socialogical experiments.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

Beyond seems fairly unique and interesting, which to my mind makes it a poor guage - if you want to test the impact of having a female protagonist, then you need to as much as possible keep everything else similar.

I guess the ideal experiment would be to take something like the ME3 flip cover and send half the stores the male version and half the stores the female version and see which ones sold more. Alas, businesses seem more interested in making money than carrying out socialogical experiments.

Also, you kinda need to inform the store clerks off the experiment. I purposely gave them one with fem-shep, but since the covers are nothing but empty boxes (to prevent theft, I guess), the game the clerk gave was with male-shep on the front.

There are not much social experiement over it when the store clerks just reach into the drawer and pull out random covers.

[Sanunes]

Iraea wrote...

 Ken Levine (Bioshock) gave some interesting insight into the 'cover' problem (there was a controversy about the 'brown-haired-dude' on the Infinite cover). It's not strictly male/female, but nevertheless enlightening.
In case you don't know the video

Seems that the game makers are willing, but the customers don't get it.

For myself: NOLF is one of my favourite games ever.
Sometimes I feel a story gets better with a female lead - like in the 'Alien' movie.

Yeah, NOLF was always a fun game to play and they had the right atmosphere for the game, too bad they killed the franchise with Contract JACK.

[TheJediSaint]

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Beyond seems fairly unique and interesting, which to my mind makes it a poor guage - if you want to test the impact of having a female protagonist, then you need to as much as possible keep everything else similar.

I guess the ideal experiment would be to take something like the ME3 flip cover and send half the stores the male version and half the stores the female version and see which ones sold more. Alas, businesses seem more interested in making money than carrying out socialogical experiments.

Also, you kinda need to inform the store clerks off the experiment. I purposely gave them one with fem-shep, but since the covers are nothing but empty boxes (to prevent theft, I guess), the game the clerk gave was with male-shep on the front.

There are not much social experiement over it when the store clerks just reach into the drawer and pull out random covers.

I think that issue is getting sidestepped by the rise of digital sales.   For games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, it will probably be more efficent just to feature both a male and female protagonist sharing the same cover.

[Plaintiff]

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Apologies if repost. Check out this article, if you haven't already:

It was a familiar refrain, but still a valuable one: Sure, it may be widely held that games with female protagonists make less money, but does that line of thinking even make sense?

Another video game writer, BioWare's David Gaider, addressed that line of thinking directly. In the middle of his talk titled "Sex in Video Games," the Dragon Age and Baldur's Gate writer put up a slide showing six video games with female protagonists featured on the cover, games like Beyond Good & Evil, No One Lives Forever and the new Tomb Raider.

"Is conventional industry wisdom correct?" Gaider asked, referring to the idea that games with women on the cover don't sell. "There's been a lot of discussion about female protagonists, especially putting them on the box. "This is not a large number of titles," he said, gesturing to the six games on the slide.


"This is over how many years? Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game that has a male protagonist and sells well sells well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?

"What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about a female protagonist? Do we need a title to sell ten million copies? Is that the bar, at which suddenly they're marketable? Are we requiring the female protagonist to work harder and sell more in order to prove herself? What kind of bull**** is that?"

kotaku.com/and-then-the-video-game-industry-woke-up-464888949

One of the many reasons I respect and am a fan of David Gaider and Bioware.

As a male who more often plays female protagonists in BioWare games than males and who is a fan of Beyond Good and Evil, the Tomb Raider series, whose main custom created Boss since Saints Row 2 has been a Goth-ish femme fatale
(Lily Tesla, Saints Row: The Third)
I agree with Mr. Gaider's line of reasoning. The industry has some pretty skewed ideas. Good thing BioWare gives us the option to choose.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 02 avril 2013 - 01:34 .

[esper]

TheJediSaint wrote...

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Beyond seems fairly unique and interesting, which to my mind makes it a poor guage - if you want to test the impact of having a female protagonist, then you need to as much as possible keep everything else similar.

I guess the ideal experiment would be to take something like the ME3 flip cover and send half the stores the male version and half the stores the female version and see which ones sold more. Alas, businesses seem more interested in making money than carrying out socialogical experiments.

Also, you kinda need to inform the store clerks off the experiment. I purposely gave them one with fem-shep, but since the covers are nothing but empty boxes (to prevent theft, I guess), the game the clerk gave was with male-shep on the front.

There are not much social experiement over it when the store clerks just reach into the drawer and pull out random covers.

I think that issue is getting sidestepped by the rise of digital sales.   For games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, it will probably be more efficent just to feature both a male and female protagonist sharing the same cover.

I kinda liked the shiftable cover, and I think that the fem-shep and the male-sheps were okay equally presented when the game was new.

But with the digitail version, I guess it all about who is presented on the main internet site, which should be both protagonist.

Modifié par esper, 02 avril 2013 - 01:34 .

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m16s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 avril 2013 - 02:02 .

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

[TheJediSaint]

esper wrote...

*snip*

I kinda liked the shiftable cover, and I think that the fem-shep and the male-sheps were okay equally presented when the game was new.

But with the digitail version, I guess it all about who is presented on the main internet site, which should be both protagonist.

Oh, I thought the reversable cover was cool, too.   However, I buy most of my games (including ME3) digtally, so it's wasn't something I got to experience first hand.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 avril 2013 - 02:12 .

[Demoiselle]

The Sin wrote...

I don't mind male or female lead characters as long as they fit the narrative.  

So when someone comes along and tells me that games like Bioshock needs a female lead, I look at them as if they are mentally retarded because Bioshock has firmly established that it is about "a man, a lighthouse, a city". Similarly, if someone comes along and tells me that Tomb Raider should feature a male lead, I will have the same reaction.

The main issue is how we portray both male & females in video games. Women can claim that they are underepresented in the video game community & when they are represented they are done sone in a sexually objectified manner which is sexist. The thing is similarly, men are being subjected to a sexist treatment because many video games portray men as some emotionless bulky thug who has no intelligence who just kills everything in his path. Men are not like that in reality. We are all not brutishly bulky, some of us are quite smart and rational & we do like to be diplomatic and not kill everything. 

That does not mean we should stop making such games totally because games are to many a form of fantasy fulfillment. It just means that we should stop misrepresenting both sexes in a flawed manner all the time. 

So instead of addressing the issue of female protagonist, we should address the issue with protagonists in general regardless of gender first. Issues like does shooting and killing everything in sight all the time indicative of personal strength and determination ?. 

Ok,no. The representation of men as bulky, overpowered etc is not the same as women being represented as over sexualised. Male protagonists being represented in that way is to appeal to a male audience, as a fantasy for themselves. Women being represented the way they are is NOT to appeal to a female audience as a parralel but again to appeal to a male audience.

[Fast Jimmy]

The industry has some pretty skewed ideas. Good thing BioWare gives us the option to choose. 

This is, ultimately, the most important point.

Bioware RPGs are all about choice. Want to play a male? Play a male. Want to play a female? Play a female.

Rather than marketing some generic set protagonist like they did with DA2, I would much rather they focus on the fact that you can CHOOSE your character (and that the game reacts to that choice, amongst other). I don't want to see ANYONE on the cover, personally. It actively invalidates the concept that you can have your own custom character when the game does nothing but plug the developers idea of how your character should look.

I don't care if that character is male, female or man-giraffe-dog. Since Bioware games are all about the choice, they should market the choice. Not market some cool version of how they think the heroes should look. That's not the point of a series like DA, nor is it representative of the experience.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 avril 2013 - 02:16 .

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

It's closer to what I would prefer, yes. Not all of them have to address such directly, of course, but current issues should at the very least be kept in mind. I also believe that it's selling oneself short to give up on the idea of games as an artistic endeavor.

[esper]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

No but any aspect of media CAN if they want to. An obviously some games and games developers want to.
Bioware wants to be inclusive, so they strive to make inclusive games. There are nothing wrong with that, just as there are nothing wrong with making a games like angry birds, which (as far as I know) is just for fun and an relaxing.

[Darth Death]

I don't regard female protagonist ever being an issue since they've existed for some time now. A problem I do see is how females are portrayed in games.

[Demoiselle]

esper wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

No but any aspect of media CAN if they want to. An obviously some games and games developers want to.
Bioware wants to be inclusive, so they strive to make inclusive games. There are nothing wrong with that, just as there are nothing wrong with making a games like angry birds, which (as far as I know) is just for fun and an relaxing.

I wasn't aware being female or non hetrosexual were NEW aspects of society.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

It's closer to what I would prefer, yes. Not all of them have to address such directly, of course, but current issues should at the very least be kept in mind. I also believe that it's selling oneself short to give up on the idea of games as an artistic endeavor.

And that is were your points start to fall down. Listen to the interview, particularly in the full context about when he talks about the practicalities and difficulties of development and how the original BioShock wouldn't have even been published in the current climate. 

Games are not an artistic endevour, they are an intellectual property, developed and commercialised, that is the legal definition, I should know I studied copyright law. It doesn't stop them dealing with the ideas and concepts like the Bioshock series does or Tomb Raider highlights, to an extent. 

And what you're are implying equates to, Games as an aspect of media entertainment, must keep in mind current issues. But, also be artistic. By dictating what they should keep in mind it undermines the concept of being artistic, and not being constrained by a specific ideology, agenda, prevailing interest.

but, all you've done is replace commercial interests with a social ideological emphasis. They, in effect, have functionally the same impact. Dictating the path of an "artistic" product. There is no difference between the two, in terms of effect. The only one being the latter is divorced from the realities of a business world, and your own personal prefrence and bias towards the sociological aspects.

[Xilizhra]

And that is were your points start to fall down. Listen to the interview, particularly in the full context about when he talks about the practicalities and difficulties of development and how the original BioShock wouldn't have even been published in the current climate.

Where is this in the interview? And why would the original Bioshock allegedly not have been produced?

but, all you've done is replace commercial interests with a social ideological emphasis. They, in effect, have functionally the same impact. Dictating the path of an "artistic" product. There is no difference between the two, in terms of effect. The only one being the latter is divorced from the realities of a business world, and your own personal prefrence and bias towards the sociological aspects.

If social pressure is applied in the right areas, and if society changes enough in those areas, they can eventually become one and the same.

[billy the squid]

Demoiselle wrote...

esper wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

No but any aspect of media CAN if they want to. An obviously some games and games developers want to.
Bioware wants to be inclusive, so they strive to make inclusive games. There are nothing wrong with that, just as there are nothing wrong with making a games like angry birds, which (as far as I know) is just for fun and an relaxing.

I wasn't aware being female or non hetrosexual were NEW aspects of society.

Look at Gaider's comments regarding how the Industry should do better. Really, they can if they want? The implication that if you don't strive for that, then they're selling out and reinforcing a male agenda. Slight over generalisation isn't it. There is no idea of wanting to, in that article, it's a criticism of the industry at large without differentiation and full of hypocrisy at that.

If you want me to list all the new aspects in commercialised society and the changing social status and social frictions I can. But, okay, you go a head and pick the most obvious ones, because it's simple and easy and doesn't make you look daft in the slightest. 

[Xilizhra]

Look at Gaider's comments regarding how the Industry should do better. Really, they can if they want? The implication that if you don't strive for that, then they're selling out and reinforcing a male agenda. Slight over generalisation isn't it. There is no idea of wanting to, in that article, it's a criticism of the industry at large without differentiation and full of hypocrisy at that.

Well, that's pretty much what they're doing. For commercial reasons, of course, but it's not doing wider culture any favors, and that can lose profit from some people (ideally, we can get things to a state where such selling out will actually hurt sales).

[esper]

Demoiselle wrote...

esper wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Androme wrote...

 Video game developers needs to stop turning the gaming industry into a same-sex romance, ''race & ethnicity is a social construct'', transsexual-industry thing. And do what they do best: Games.

Media exploring social issues? What madness is this?!

http://youtu.be/JwsjALh2vYA?t=16m10s

The line at 17: 42  "not every game has to be a political statement or a work of art" from Ken Levine should be foremost in people's minds

This is true. Angry Birds and its ilk will always have their niche.

So you imply that anything which isn't similar to the above must innovate and should deal with certain topics, and bodies and developers should decide which games are okay and which ones aren't. Seems to be the same line of thought that the female developer had in the discussion with Kevin Levine. This topic should be included because... because games should bring up the politics of equality and blah, blah, blah?

Really, every aspect of media now has to deal with the social mores and new aspects of society?

No but any aspect of media CAN if they want to. An obviously some games and games developers want to.
Bioware wants to be inclusive, so they strive to make inclusive games. There are nothing wrong with that, just as there are nothing wrong with making a games like angry birds, which (as far as I know) is just for fun and an relaxing.

I wasn't aware being female or non hetrosexual were NEW aspects of society.

What has it to do with being new aspect of societies? You do not need to be a new kind of person simply for having a wish to be included in the media you like to consume.

And just because to females and non-hetronormative have existed for a long time it does not mean that they have been included enough nor does it mean that there is anything wrong with a game or any other mediea dealing with. it or exploring the issues.