186 réponses à ce sujet

[AllThatJazz]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, you're saying Isbella isn't a hugely over-sexualized woman who's protrayed as a lust object rather than a respectable woman?

No, she's very much portrayed a respectable woman, at least not less respectable than most other DA companions. Her being a lust object is very much secondary to the character.

So you DO admit that she IS indeed a lust object, be it secondary or not?


Well, it's good that you at least don't deny the obvious facts. 

That said, I don't think Isabella is a respectable woman at all. Aveline doesn't think so either. See? Even the in-game characters in Dragon Age 2 agree with me. 

Speaking about Aveline: She's about the only strong and respectable woman in that game. At least Aveline isn't a lust object like the other women in DA2 and Aveline is a strong, independent and progressive woman. She was about the only character in DA2 I actually liked and respected.

Elthina? Meredith? Keeper Marethari? Leandra?  Petrice? Charade? None of these are particularly objects of lust, they are all strong and independent and at least progressive in terms of wanting to progress their own agendas, whatever those might be. 'Respectable' is such a subjective term, since it depends on the kind of behaviour/characteristics you respect. A woman who is honest about the kind of person she is, comfortable in her sexuality, and a bit of a ball-breaker if she gets unwanted attention? Actually yeah, I can respect that even if I think she should put some knickers on.

Also, Aveline and Isabela were good friends by the end of DA2 - they learned to like and respect each other despite their differences and all that. 

Edit: Also, I noticed your TW2 banner. Geralt can actively shag around throughout both Witcher games, and that's okay, that's fun, and part of his character or whatever. But Isabela (who is never explicitly shown having sex with anyone apart from Hawke, and even then it's hardly racy stuff) gets called names in this thread for dressing provocatively and referencing sex and sexuality and having that as part of her character? Why?

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 02 avril 2013 - 05:06 .

[redBadger14]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, you're saying Isbella isn't a hugely over-sexualized woman who's protrayed as a lust object rather than a respectable woman?

No, she's very much portrayed a respectable woman, at least not less respectable than most other DA companions. Her being a lust object is very much secondary to the character.

So you DO admit that she IS indeed a lust object, be it secondary or not?


Well, it's good that you at least don't deny the obvious facts. 

That said, I don't think Isabella is a respectable woman at all. Aveline doesn't think so either. See? Even the in-game characters in Dragon Age 2 agree with me. 

Speaking about Aveline: She's about the only strong and respectable woman in that game. At least Aveline isn't a lust object like the other women in DA2 and Aveline is a strong, independent and progressive woman. She was about the only character in DA2 I actually liked and respected.

If you take the time to learn more about Isabela (best way is to romance), then you learn why she acts the way she does. Isabela does have a moral compass, and her past has caused her to cope by utilizing pleasure and her body. Even though on the surface she is portrayed as a sex symbol, Isabela herself is a strong, independent woman. Take the time to romance her and you'll understand, she is a very well written and respectable character when you get to know her.

Back on topic though, I agree with David that developers really should take more chances and feature more females as protagonists or in major, strong roles. However, better inclusion is good as long as it isn't abused to the point where it comes off as pandering or doing it "just because." If there's a female protagonist, it should make sense according to the story, and not just used for the sole sake of inclusion or being "the good guy."

They should also be portrayed properly and with variety, as all characters should. That probably goes without saying.

Modifié par redBadger14, 02 avril 2013 - 05:01 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

In Exile wrote...
Again, you don't get to pretend that a non-progressive goal is on the same moral ground as a progressive one.

"Progressive"...what does that even mean? I'm guessing that "progressive" is whatever you happen to like.

In Exile wrote...
No. They're just sexist.

You still haven't explained how they're sexist. Because they don't have female soldiers?

Xilizhra wrote...
Given that these shooters tend to have no story of significance, would it really hurt anything to have female protagonist options?

Well, for those of them playing during WW2, having female protagonists would be absolutely ridiculous. And they do have stories.

[Xilizhra]

Well, for those of them playing during WW2, having female protagonists would be absolutely ridiculous. And they do have stories.

Not in Russia.

[Reznore57]

Heretic_hanar , I don't think you understand.
Putting every woman in an armor and saying that's what deserve respect doesn't help.
Showing that even a woman who like to be sexy and have sex can respect herself and be respected by others , does help.

[BeatoSama]

Isabela is never subjectred to "male gaze" camera movements so she isn't as objectified as the Mass Effect or Witcher ladies are for example.

[esper]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As our good friend Luke would say: "Thou hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye before thou points out the speck of sawdust that is in your brother's eye."

Watch and learn Gaider and the rest of BioWare, THIS is how you properly present women in your games:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 1>

In comparison, THIS is how it SHOULDN'T be done:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 2>

I too can post just the right screenies to make my point 

Except I'm not even carefully handpicking screenshots at all. You can look at ANY woman in Gears of War, and they'll ALL look like Anya, in the same armor, all equally strong and independent.

Clearly, DA2 still has plenty of over-sexualized lust objects as characters, with Isabella being the prime example.

Seriously, didn't carefully handpick anything. I actually took the first screenshot I found from Isabella, and the first screenshot I found from Anya (Gears of War).

You sir, just failed.

Here, have a screenshot from Samantha, my favorite character in Gears:

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

[The Heretic of Time]

redBadger14 wrote...

Back on topic though, I agree with David that developers really should take more chances and feature more females as protagonists or in major, strong roles. However, better inclusion is good as long as it isn't abused to the point where it comes off as pandering or doing it "just because." If there's a female protagonist, it should make sense according to the story, and not just used for the sole sake of inclusion or being "the good guy."

They should also be portrayed properly and with variety, as all characters should. That probably goes without saying.

I actually fully agree with this. And I get the feeling that BioWare with this whole romance bullcrap is actually doing just that: catering, or pandering or doing it "just because".

I'm not so much talking about the protrayal of females now, but more about the romance bullcrap and especially the same-sex romance controversy, up to a point where characters are specifically designed and implemented to be a same-sex romance option, just for the sake of trying to come of as a progressive development studio who are more focussed on being politically correct than focussed on actually creating good games.

I don't think Gears of War is the best series ever, far from it, but I have to give EPIC credit for how they protrayed the women in Gears of War 3. The woman in Gears are equal to the men in Gears in almost every single way, with the same armors, the same abilities and the same strengths and weaknesses, and that's how it should be.

[The Heretic of Time]

esper wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As our good friend Luke would say: "Thou hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye before thou points out the speck of sawdust that is in your brother's eye."

Watch and learn Gaider and the rest of BioWare, THIS is how you properly present women in your games:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 1>

In comparison, THIS is how it SHOULDN'T be done:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 2>

I too can post just the right screenies to make my point 

Except I'm not even carefully handpicking screenshots at all. You can look at ANY woman in Gears of War, and they'll ALL look like Anya, in the same armor, all equally strong and independent.

Clearly, DA2 still has plenty of over-sexualized lust objects as characters, with Isabella being the prime example.

Seriously, didn't carefully handpick anything. I actually took the first screenshot I found from Isabella, and the first screenshot I found from Anya (Gears of War).

You sir, just failed.

Here, have a screenshot from Samantha, my favorite character in Gears:

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

Are you f*cking blind or something? Did you just totally overlook one of my previous post, where I showed that those "boob rings" are an important part of the armor that are present on BOTH the MALE armors AND the female armors?

As I said, the armors in Gears of War are universal and both genders wear the same armor, as it should be.

Again, I'll post the same picture as I posted earlier to prove my point:

[Wissenschaft]

I find it absurd and very closed minded the way people keep saying Isabela isn't a strong woman compared to say Aveline. Isabela very independent and acts like a stereotypical male. She goes after those she finds attractive and isn't ashame of her sexuality. Why should a female be ashamed of having had many sexual relationships? Would a male be criticized for acting the same way? Think of James Bond, whos always portrayed with more than one new woman per movie. Isabela really doesn't act any different in this regard that James Bond, so why is she labeled a **** or just a sexual object for male gamers? Yes, she dresses and talks provocatively but thats well within her personality and, as had been mentioned, the camera never focuses elusively on her features.

Aveline is a strong woman but shes also a prude who is too embarrassed to admit she likes her "private time" with Dominic. Isabella feels that nobody should feel embarrassed about their sexuality, theres no reason to be and those that are are being hypocrites.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 02 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not so much talking about the protrayal of females now, but more about the romance bullcrap and especially the same-sex romance controversy, up to a point where characters are specifically designed and implemented to be a same-sex romance option, just for the sake of trying to come of as a progressive development studio who are more focussed on being politically correct than focussed on actually creating good games.

Well, this kind of thing is necessary for inclusion if you're going to have both romances at all, and an RPG with choices at all. If you have neither, then it may not be necessary, but I will charitably assume that you'd have no issues with a protagonist who was always homosexual.

[Little Princess Peach]

why can't you have the female and male hero both on the front cover? then everyone wins

[redBadger14]

esper wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As our good friend Luke would say: "Thou hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye before thou points out the speck of sawdust that is in your brother's eye."

Watch and learn Gaider and the rest of BioWare, THIS is how you properly present women in your games:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 1>

In comparison, THIS is how it SHOULDN'T be done:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 2>

I too can post just the right screenies to make my point 

Except I'm not even carefully handpicking screenshots at all. You can look at ANY woman in Gears of War, and they'll ALL look like Anya, in the same armor, all equally strong and independent.

Clearly, DA2 still has plenty of over-sexualized lust objects as characters, with Isabella being the prime example.

Seriously, didn't carefully handpick anything. I actually took the first screenshot I found from Isabella, and the first screenshot I found from Anya (Gears of War).

You sir, just failed.

Here, have a screenshot from Samantha, my favorite character in Gears:

*snip*

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

Uh, yeah, your so-called "boob rings," you realize they're on every single armor chestplate in Gears, for males and females, right? So, it's not a "boob ring." It's just a cosmetic to the armor. Grow up.

@Heretic_Hanar: I get where you're coming from. My favorite scene from Gears is when Sam busts open the door for all three of the men, like a badass.

[Sebby]

esper wrote...

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

The "boob rings" were there since day 1 long before there were female player characters starting with Gears 3.



Fail harder.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not so much talking about the protrayal of females now, but more about the romance bullcrap and especially the same-sex romance controversy, up to a point where characters are specifically designed and implemented to be a same-sex romance option, just for the sake of trying to come of as a progressive development studio who are more focussed on being politically correct than focussed on actually creating good games.

Well, this kind of thing is necessary for inclusion if you're going to have both romances at all, and an RPG with choices at all. If you have neither, then it may not be necessary, but I will charitably assume that you'd have no issues with a protagonist who was always homosexual.

I find the whole romance thing in RPGs being blown a bit out of porportions, sexual orientation be damned.

And no, I wouldn't mind to play as a homosexual male (or female) character in video-games, if the character is well-written and properly portrayed.

[Captain Crash]

As I somewhat expected, this thread seems to have swung to opinions on what a protagonist should look like and what a game cover should evoke, which isn't really the point David was making.

This was an article specifically about a female protagonist on the box (not how a protagonist looks) and how the industry has an established mindset on these sorts of issues.  David wants to point out that these mindsets should be questioned, especially in an industry that rapidly changes.

"[...] a game that has a male protagonist and sells well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?"

Modifié par Captain Crash, 02 avril 2013 - 05:21 .

[jaza]

Seboist wrote...

esper wrote...

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

The "boob rings" were there since day 1 long before there were female player characters starting with Gears 3.



Fail harder.

Why did you have to grow a hobo beard, Dom? You used to be cool...

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not so much talking about the protrayal of females now, but more about the romance bullcrap and especially the same-sex romance controversy, up to a point where characters are specifically designed and implemented to be a same-sex romance option, just for the sake of trying to come of as a progressive development studio who are more focussed on being politically correct than focussed on actually creating good games.

Well, this kind of thing is necessary for inclusion if you're going to have both romances at all, and an RPG with choices at all. If you have neither, then it may not be necessary, but I will charitably assume that you'd have no issues with a protagonist who was always homosexual.

I find the whole romance thing in RPGs being blown a bit out of porportions, sexual orientation be damned.

And no, I wouldn't mind to play as a homosexual male (or female) character in video-games, if the character is well-written and properly portrayed.

Be that as it may, it's in the interest of the commercial forces that Billy worships that the romances continue, so it would seem that the best compromise is to have them be more woven into the plot of the game?

[billy the squid]

In Exile wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
There is a diffrence between a want and a need. Do you think that the gaming industry is so pervasive that society will change with it?

There's shifting goalposts, and then there's punting them to the other side of the city gates. Of course, changing games wont' change society. But who was talking about social change? Changing games will change games, and that's what we're talking about here.

Games fall categorically into a want. The key aspect is that many commercial create the idea that a lack of a product, conspicuous consumption will prevent social inclusion.  

There are a great deal of theories about marketing, none of which are on especially solid ground empirically. 

It's the possesion of the object. It's far more simple than trying to drive an underlying message home, by trying to equate a charcater will change people's opinion's. 

You don't need to drive a message home. Just be less sexist about it. 

So what have we been talking about for the last couple of pages in terms of social progression? And placing emphasis on certain aspects of media entertainment and how you previously mentioned that commercials and aspects like that shape society. Yet now changing games just changes games does it? So which is it?

So then if there is then if the only goal is to be less "sexist" I'll be sure to tell the men's football team that their being sexist by not including women in the game. 

[Twisted Path]

It's a shame they kind of dropped Isabella's original theme of being a duelist beyond a few haphazard bits of dialogue. I liked her characterization in origins a lot more, she seemed like a tough ship-captain lady who worked hard to keep her sailors in line and played hard on shore leave. She also seemed a bit older and weather-worn, though that might just have been the vagaries of Origin's face models. It seems like a female ship's captain wouldn't be supermodel-young looking.

All of those elements are still kind of mentioned in DA2 but it's overshadowed by the fact that Isabella seems to exist purely to make juvenile sex-jokes. I mean seriously, that's what she seems to do for 90% of DA2 and that bothered me a lot more than her silly looking character design. I think the relentless, constant banter hurt DA2's characters and made them seem more one-dimensional, since most of what they said was meant to reflect the character's one big theme. Isabella just makes sex-jokes, Merril just acts clumsy and awkward, Fenris just complains about mages, all day every day.

Also the generic leather outfit she first appears in fits the swashbuckling duelist thing better than the weird corset/loincloth combo from DA2, and of course between games she seems to have switched classes from a duelist to an acrobat.

[esper]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

esper wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As our good friend Luke would say: "Thou hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye before thou points out the speck of sawdust that is in your brother's eye."

Watch and learn Gaider and the rest of BioWare, THIS is how you properly present women in your games:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 1>

In comparison, THIS is how it SHOULDN'T be done:

<carefully handpicked screenshot 2>

I too can post just the right screenies to make my point 

Except I'm not even carefully handpicking screenshots at all. You can look at ANY woman in Gears of War, and they'll ALL look like Anya, in the same armor, all equally strong and independent.

Clearly, DA2 still has plenty of over-sexualized lust objects as characters, with Isabella being the prime example.

Seriously, didn't carefully handpick anything. I actually took the first screenshot I found from Isabella, and the first screenshot I found from Anya (Gears of War).

You sir, just failed.

Here, have a screenshot from Samantha, my favorite character in Gears:

And once again I am just going to say that I hope those boob rings serve a purpose and are not just there to point to her breast. (Not that bioware doesn't have a problem with boob rings too, mage robes, brr).

Are you f*cking blind or something? Did you just totally overlook one of my previous post, where I showed that those "boob rings" are an important part of the armor that are present on BOTH the MALE armors AND the female armors?

As I said, the armors in Gears of War are universal and both genders wear the same armor, as it should be.

Again, I'll post the same picture as I posted earlier to prove my point:

There are no need to yell, I could not see your earlier link, the picuture wasn't showing.
...

And so is dragon age. Aveline, Cahterine, Meridith, The two other random templar ladies whose name I forgot, The guardwoman being harsh towards Donnic, all of those whom are in an army, wears basically the same armour as the male.

Isabella is not in an army, she wears clothes that is easy to have sex in, but also clothes she is comfortable in. Demanding that woman do not dress sexy in order to be 'a real woman' is a sexist as dressing womans unfit for the sexiness in **** clothes, just because they are woman.

Isabella is a whole character, which is all that can be demanded and there are no objectfying in the game off her. I am not even sure if there was a male gaze of her in the sex scene.

[esper]

Twisted Path wrote...

It's a shame they kind of dropped Isabella's original theme of being a duelist beyond a few haphazard bits of dialogue. I liked her characterization in origins a lot more, she seemed like a tough ship-captain lady who worked hard to keep her sailors in line and played hard on shore leave. She also seemed a bit older and weather-worn, though that might just have been the vagaries of Origin's face models. It seems like a female ship's captain wouldn't be supermodel-young looking.

All of those elements are still kind of mentioned in DA2 but it's overshadowed by the fact that Isabella seems to exist purely to make juvenile sex-jokes. I mean seriously, that's what she seems to do for 90% of DA2 and that bothered me a lot more than her silly looking character design. I think the relentless, constant banter hurt DA2's characters and made them seem more one-dimensional, since most of what they said was meant to reflect the character's one big theme. Isabella just makes sex-jokes, Merril just acts clumsy and awkward, Fenris just complains about mages, all day every day.

Also the generic leather outfit she first appears in fits the swashbuckling duelist thing better than the weird corset/loincloth combo from DA2, and of course between games she seems to have switched classes from a duelist to an acrobat.

You mean the duelist who clearly was as 'loose' (i say loose because I cannot spell promi...) as Zevran and had nothing against a foursome and who you met in the brothel?

If you think Isabella just made sex-jokes, you did not hear all the banter with her.

[Rixatrix]

Captain Crash wrote...
As I somewhat expected, this thread seems to have swung to opinions on what a protagonist should look like and what a game cover should evoke, which isn't really the point David was making. 

This was an article specifically about a female protagonist on the box (not how a protagonist looks) and how the industry has an established mindset on these sorts of issues.  David wants to point out that these mindsets should be questioned, especially in an industry that rapidly changes.

"[...] a game that has a male protagonist and sells well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?"

Yes, back to the point. ^

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not so much talking about the protrayal of females now, but more about the romance bullcrap and especially the same-sex romance controversy, up to a point where characters are specifically designed and implemented to be a same-sex romance option, just for the sake of trying to come of as a progressive development studio who are more focussed on being politically correct than focussed on actually creating good games.

Well, this kind of thing is necessary for inclusion if you're going to have both romances at all, and an RPG with choices at all. If you have neither, then it may not be necessary, but I will charitably assume that you'd have no issues with a protagonist who was always homosexual.

I find the whole romance thing in RPGs being blown a bit out of porportions, sexual orientation be damned.

And no, I wouldn't mind to play as a homosexual male (or female) character in video-games, if the character is well-written and properly portrayed.

Be that as it may, it's in the interest of the commercial forces that Billy worships that the romances continue, so it would seem that the best compromise is to have them be more woven into the plot of the game?

Implementing the romances into the main plot and story would be a good thing, yes. Having the romancable characters be written as real characters with an integral role in the plot would also be a big step forward. Some characters in the BioWare games are clearly just written and implemented to be there as a (same-sex) romance option. And other characters are simply turned into (same-sex) romance options just for the sake of having more romance options. It gets to a point where almost every party member is romancable by either a male Hawke or a female Hawke, which gives me the impression everyone in Dragon Age is not heterosexual, neither homosexual, not even bisexual, but Hawkesexual.

For the sake of realism I would actually like to see LESS romancable characters in my games. I want both male and female party-members ot say NO to Hawke when Hawke tries to hit on them, like Aveline. Dragon Age would be a lot more mature with more characters like Aveline in it, characters who AREN'T into Hawke and DON'T want to get romantically involved with Hawke, for whatever reasons.

Less Hawkesexual people in DA3 please.