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Phantom and bubble oddities


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#1
corlist

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Major Update: Phasic ammo does ZERO damage to barriers. a phantom's bubble.

Summary
- If host characters hit the bubble with a hitscan weapon (piercing is unnecessary), it will do direct health damage to the phantom. No barrier damage will be inflicted without ammo. This damage is reduced by 75% (assuming DR instead of shield gate).
- If off-host characters hit the bubble with a hitscan weapon, it will do normal barrier damage.
- In all cases, graal shots did direct health damage and receive the 75% penalty.
- Approximately 2m worth of penetration is required to double hit the phantom reliably with a headshot. One shot can hit the bubble along with the phantom’s body.
- For double hit consistency, shoot the head of the phantom while it is facing you in her bubble.
- Ammo damage applies twice on double hits.
- Ammo damage applies normally (as though the phantom's body was hit) when the bubble is hit. This is the same for both hosts and off-host shooters.

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This allows any HOST sniper infiltrator to 1 shot gold phantoms.
Setup required:
mantis X (piercing V, HVB V)
80% damage cloak + 25% sniper
phasic ammo III
25% weapon damage passives or gear

Off-host characters don't even need any weapon bonus to do so[/u].
Setup required:
Mantis X (piercing V, HVB V)
phasic ammo III
No rail amp, gear or even skill points is required.[u]

Calculation:
Human infiltrator
6 points in TC (damage/recharge/sniper)
25% passives OR rail amp TOTAL (assuming 10% passives + 15% gear)

This lets any HOST sniper infiltrator (even duration spec) to 1 shot gold phantoms with a bodyshot.

Setup required:
Widow X: 1,246 (piercing V, HVB V, 2.85m pen.)
40% damage cloak + 25% sniper
Disruptor IV: 25% to health. 100% to shields and barriers

Off-host sniper infiltrators can do the same with lesser equipment
Mantis X: 886.4 (piercing V, HVB V, 2.35m pen.)
80% damage cloak + 25% sniper
Disruptor III: 15% to health. 60% to shields and barriers

A host max-damage GI can also cheese a gold phantom using the following setup:
Max damage GI + javelin X + barrel + SR Rail II + SR Gear VorMax damage GI (with speed hunter mode) + javelin X + barrel + SR Rail III + SR Gear Vcloak + proxy mine + shoot bubble (no body hit needed) = instant kill
1687.5 health
1545.8 * 1.35 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.225 + 0.175 + 0.25 + 0.2 + 0.15) * 1.2 = 7,011.74887,011.7488 / 4 = 1,815.5421 (>1687.5)

Video proof of the javelin GI bubble shot instant kill. Thanks to tyhw and sirian for the video.


3075 barriers and 1687.5 health

Cloaked bodyshot on gold phantom (HOST)

1) Ammo damage is applied to barriers
1246 * 1.25 * 0.25 * 4 = 1,557.5 (1558)
3075 - 1558 = 1,517

2) Shot damage goes to health directly
1246 * 1.25 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.4) * 0.25 = 642.46875
1687.5 - 642.46875 = 1,045.03125

3) Ammo damage is applied normally (double hit + no pen. penalty + bleedthrough)
1246 * 1.25 * 0.25 * 4 = 1,557.5 (1558)
1517 - 1558 = -41
41 / 4 = 10.25
1,045.03125 - 10.25 = 1,034.78125

4) Shot damage is applied normally (double hit + no pen. penalty)
1246  * 1.25 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.4) = 2,569.875
2,569.875 > 1,034.78125

---

Cloaked headshot on gold phantom (OFF-HOST, sniper infiltrator)

1) Ammo damage is applied to barriers
886.4 * 1.25 * 0.15 * 4 = 664.8 (665)
3075 - 665 = 2,410

2) Shot damage goes to barriers (shield gated and bleedthrough)
886.4 * 1.25 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.8) = 2,271.4 (2,272)
2,410 - 2,272 = 138

3) Ammo damage is applied normally (double hit + pen. penalty)
886.4 * 1.25 * 0.15 * 4 * 0.7 = 465.36 (466)
138 - 466 = -328
328 / 4 = 82
1687.5 - 82 = 1,605.5

4) Shot damage is applied normally (double hit + pen. penalty)
886.4 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.8) * 2.5 * 0.7 = 3,179.96
3,179.96 > 1,605.5

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data

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Thanks to tyhw, marsman, freekone and eelectrica for the help.

Modifié par corlist, 20 avril 2013 - 09:31 .


#2
IllusiveManJr

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*sees math and leaves*

#3
Titus Thongger

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I knew penetration affected whether you could hit the phantom in the bubble! >:D *shakes fist at doubters*

thanks for the find Corlist.

#4
N7NJA982

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I love how the bubble expands her hitbox. Phantom, meet Claymoar.

#5
capn233

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So if you don't have an ammo that affects barriers, but you are on-host and shoot the bubble, is it possible to kill the Phantom without dropping her barrier all the way? Since you do direct health damage?

#6
corlist

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capn233 wrote...

So if you don't have an ammo that affects barriers, but you are on-host and shoot the bubble, is it possible to kill the Phantom without dropping her barrier all the way? Since you do direct health damage?


Yes. In fact this is listed in the data but not in the OP. I'll put it here.


***easiest way to kill gold phantoms ever? (host only)***
Max damage GI + javelin X + barrel + SR Rail II + SR Gear V
or
Max damage GI (with speed hunter mode) + javelin X + barrel + SR Rail III + SR Gear V
cloak + proxy mine + shoot bubble (no body hit needed) = instant kill

1687.5 health

1545.8 * 1.35 * (1 + 0.8 + 0.225 + 0.175 + 0.25 + 0.2 + 0.15) * 1.2 = 7,011.7488
7,011.7488 / 4 = 1,815.5421 (>1687.5)

#7
capn233

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I'm going to have to play around with that.

I don't recall many instances where I "missed" and shot the bubble, but the Phantom still died.  But really I can't remember any instances of just shooting the bubble with the Javelin anyway.

Is this a bug or did they do this so Phantoms are easier to kill with guns while their bubble is up?

Modifié par capn233, 02 avril 2013 - 05:03 .


#8
Dunvi

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Now if only getting phantoms to bubble on host were easy...

no seriously. has anyone else noticed that what fairly reliably causes a phantom to bubble off host (proxy, projectile power) just makes her go flip flip flip on host?

love ya btw. thank you for the testing.

#9
corlist

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capn233 wrote...

So if you don't have an ammo that affects barriers, but you are on-host and shoot the bubble, is it possible to kill the Phantom without dropping her barrier all the way?


I hope there's no misunderstanding here. Regardless of whether you have ammo or not, all host hitscan shots on the bubble will do direct health damage. Ammo damage works normally. I guess I should also have said that it's possible to kill the phantom without even doing any barrier damage as long as you only shoot while she's in the bubble. The reegar carbine comes to mind.

capn233 wrote...

I don't recall many instances where I "missed" and shot the bubble, but the Phantom still died.  But really I can't remember any instances of just shooting the bubble with the Javelin anyway.

Is this a bug or did they do this so Phantoms are easier to kill with guns while their bubble is up?


Whether it's a bug or not can only be answered by bioware I guess.

#10
Titus Thongger

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Dunvi wrote...

Now if only getting phantoms to bubble on host were easy...

no seriously. has anyone else noticed that what fairly reliably causes a phantom to bubble off host (proxy, projectile power) just makes her go flip flip flip on host?

love ya btw. thank you for the testing.


I find at a long distance shooting a proxy mine will always cause her to bring up the bubble. at close range she may flip. or grenades will generally cause her to bring up the bubble, or stagger her

#11
RoZh2400

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Excellent find, corlist. Keep up the good work!

#12
Computron2000

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Bit confused. Does this mean if i use a harrier with 2m penetration, i can double hit a phantom with bubble? Does the 75% DR apply (on host) on both shots, 1 shot or no shots?

#13
corlist

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Computron2000 wrote...

Bit confused. Does this mean if i use a harrier with 2m penetration, i can double hit a phantom with bubble? Does the 75% DR apply (on host) on both shots, 1 shot or no shots?


Yes, harrier with 2m penetration should work. I'm 99% confident.

The 75% DR is only applied to the direct health damage shots which can only be done by the host (or off host with graal).
The phantom 75% DR is not applied to any other shot or ammo damage component for either host or off-host shooters.

#14
Computron2000

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corlist wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Bit confused. Does this mean if i use a harrier with 2m penetration, i can double hit a phantom with bubble? Does the 75% DR apply (on host) on both shots, 1 shot or no shots?


Yes, harrier with 2m penetration should work. I'm 99% confident.

The 75% DR is only applied to the direct health damage shots which can only be done by the host (or off host with graal).
The phantom 75% DR is not applied to any other shot or ammo damage component for either host or off-host shooters.


Thanks this is very useful stuff. With this new info, i have to look at how my weapons are specced

#15
Dunvi

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also, thank you for confirming this - I've mentioned before that something weird was going on with on host phantoms that allows hosts to hit health without bringing barriers down, and now we have proof.

#16
soulstriker09

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Very very nice info here. I just thought that weapons were more effective in general when she puts up her bubble. Or its just really easy to get headshots now that she was kind enough to stop and pose...

Proxy time.

#17
mybudgee

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Man Biower really screwed the pooch with the Phantom bubble didn't they??

#18
mol6x7

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The easiest way to deal with Phantoms is to fight Geth.

mybudgee wrote...

Man Biower really screwed the pooch with the Phantom bubble didn't they??


You could have left it at "Man Biower really screwed the pooch". No qualifiers needed.

/great game, but SO many quirks and bugs

#19
HolyAvenger

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Bump for great justice.

Guess I'm gonna start running double penetration mods instead of spare ammo when I sniper on host.

#20
Deerber

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Wow. Thanks for the bump Djeck - this is great info!!

Thank you all guys so much for this! It's truly great stuff.

I know I might be asking much, but any plans to test the on-host vs off-host DR on Phantoms?

#21
Lukan

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sweet good to know.

#22
HolyAvenger

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Yep, Phantom on-host DR in the bubble was one of my biggest issues with the game so its good to have a workaround at least (even though penetration affecting the bubble is pure BS and bad programming).

#23
MidshipOdin2

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Good explanation quite understandable. Uh Oh big numbers too many ahhhhhhh must run eyes bleeding.

#24
capn233

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Bump for great justice.

Guess I'm gonna start running double penetration mods instead of spare ammo when I sniper on host.

If you are running the Javelin you would have >2m either way. :)

#25
HolyAvenger

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capn233 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Bump for great justice.

Guess I'm gonna start running double penetration mods instead of spare ammo when I sniper on host.

If you are running the Javelin you would have >2m either way. :)

 

Black Widow :mellow: