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David Gaider chose Synthesis; Can we just accept that every ending has shades of gray?


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#376
dreamgazer

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Really, though, I just want people to consider other perspectives. 


They do. Well, some do. The problem is that once you dig even a little bit deeper into each option, you tap into a conflict of ethics, philosophy, and context against the rest of the narrative. While it doesn't excuse toxicity and fanaticism---which comes from all directions, as evidenced in this very thread---it's tough not to allow personal passions and viewpoints from entering this equation. Take into account that the execution wasn't without flaws, and you've still got a bit of a mess when you want to chew on each possibility..

The hostility and insults do need to hit the bottom of the garbage can, though.

#377
ioannisdenton

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David Gaider wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I have to ask. Is anybody sure he didnt get synthesis by accident. Maybe he was just expolring the crucible and got too close to the beam forcing the synthesis cutscene but was so disgusted by the endings he couldnt bring himself to reload and choose destroy..


I weighed the options and chose what I felt was the lesser of three evils. I stand by my choice and am perfectly capable of thinking for myself, thanks.

Hi Mr gaider!!! Continue the great work with dragon age please!!! Keep it up!

#378
Nerevar-as

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Mr.House wrote...

It would have been funnier if Gaider shot starbrat by accident.


A friend of mine (who liked his EC red ending anyway) shot Starbrat because he thought it was all a trap. He wasn´t amused by the unskippable dialogue on his 2nd try.

#379
Guest_Scepsis_*

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*grabs popcorn, takes a seat*
Let the games continue!
B)

Modifié par Scepsis, 02 avril 2013 - 08:18 .


#380
AresKeith

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Eterna5 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Then don't. But  don't degrade and belittle the people who disagree with you. 


Says the person who just did it


Where?


Funny how you edited the post, when you originally said it was sad that the person "couldn't see the good synthesis"

#381
Ryzaki

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Seival wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis is beautiful. Beautiful as any true step forward on the path of becoming something greater. Beautiful as nature and evolution themselves.


I´d call evolution anything but beautiful. Its road is littered with all who didn´t make it.


The path of life is littered with all who didn´t make it. And eventually each of us becomes "someone who didn't make it". Does that mean life isn't beautiful?

Personally, I believe that life is beautiful.


your avatar creeps me out.

Creeeepppy.

:?

And yeah I will never have any respect for the synthesis ending. Utter nonsense, ridculous and barf worthy.

Not gonna insult the people who pick it though. Least til they insult me. :whistle:

#382
Mr.House

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

It would have been funnier if Gaider shot starbrat by accident.


A friend of mine (who liked his EC red ending anyway) shot Starbrat because he thought it was all a trap. He wasn´t amused by the unskippable dialogue on his 2nd try.

I did it too on my first EC run because I had neough of starbrats crap, could not stop laughing. Bioware trolled me good.

#383
Applepie_Svk

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis is beautiful. Beautiful as any true step forward on the path of becoming something greater. Beautiful as nature and evolution themselves.


I´d call evolution anything but beautiful. Its road is littered with all who didn´t make it.


evolution is infinite by its definition - synthesis killing evolution...

#384
Ecrulis

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The entire premise of the problem is based off of what might happen, while we as the players are given no evidence to support it, the geth in 1, 2, or 3 don't count because they are either a splinter faction that gets controlled by the reapers to kill organics in order to prevent them from inventing synthetics that will kill organics (real great cyclical logic there) or a group of beings more peaceful than every organic in the galaxy. The Protheans can't be used as an example because it's stated that organics will create synthetics that will destroy them and the protheans were about to win their war. The only instance where this is shown to be a problem is in the Leviathans cycle where some lesser races created dangerous synthetics and as someone said, one instance does not a pattern make. It's complete nonsense.

#385
Fawx9

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Eterna5 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"What about me?" Said the wolf. "Why did I have to be changed?"

Image IPB

Yet synthesis even changes these creatures, making them hybrids. It changes all life.


And there is the crux of the problem isn't it? You fear change. You fear the unkown. 


Or it's that the galaxy isn't so broken that we feel the need to change it. 


Then don't. But  don't degrade and belittle the people who disagree with you. 


Personnaly I'm not belittling the people. It's the choice I'm going after. As IMO it's representative of a lot of bad ideas that have never worked. 

#386
Nerevar-as

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ioannisdenton wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I have to ask. Is anybody sure he didnt get synthesis by accident. Maybe he was just expolring the crucible and got too close to the beam forcing the synthesis cutscene but was so disgusted by the endings he couldnt bring himself to reload and choose destroy..


I weighed the options and chose what I felt was the lesser of three evils. I stand by my choice and am perfectly capable of thinking for myself, thanks.

Hi Mr gaider!!! Continue the great work with dragon age please!!! Keep it up!


I´m worried about DA if that´s his idea of lesser evil... if you don´t want genocide then there´s Control and hoping for the best.

#387
Link Ashland 614

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This place is way pathetic sometimes.

#388
MassivelyEffective0730

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Ryzaki wrote...
Not gonna insult the people who pick it though. Least til they insult me. :whistle:


Go talk to this one guy, Auld Wulf. Tell him you like destroy.

:devil:

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 02 avril 2013 - 08:21 .


#389
MassivelyEffective0730

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On a serious note, my opinion on why synthesis is bad:

How it's presented: You ascend a beam into a room openly exposed to vacuum and meet a strange glowing child who is the creator of the machines that are hellbent on annihilating galactic civilization every 50,000 years. He doesn't say much at all, yet you are inexplicably compelled to listen to him and accept his idea's that the cycle, or one of it's presented equivalents are necessary so that you can solve a minor plot theme that was already solved 4 main missions ago, and that a choice that requires your death will somehow alter the fabric of all existing life to make the cycle irrelevant because life has been fundamentally changed forever.

The lore, or 'science' (and lack of it I mean) behind it: "Essence of who you are"? Sounds like vitalism, a theme of mysticism, which is basically superstitious belief in inanimate objects. "New DNA"? How does that even work? Most aliens have a different form of DNA from humans. All synthetics don't even have DNA. How does a big, green energy wave cause everyone, every living thing for that matter, to become a cyborg? How is this carried out across space and time in the galaxy? How can it be the final evolution of all life? Isn't that non-sensical since evolution is not equated to perfection but to mutation and adaptation to changing environments?

Who the presenter of it is: The Reapers, the main enemy throughout the entire trilogy who have been consistently shown to be ired by the mere existence of other beings to the point they feel the need to annihilate them, and how they are known to control and manipulate other beings through indoctrination. Why should I start listening to them (especially their creator) now? Haven't they always tried to kill me or manipulate me into doing their bidding before?(protip: using the antagonist as the mouthpiece to present all the final ending options is a narrative no-no).

Why it's being presented: The belief that order vs chaos, or organics and synthetics will fundamentally destroy each other in every circumstance, which I don't believe in. Synthesis may well be possible in the future, but if it's going to be induced, it needs to be for more than a reason to end an infinite cycle of destruction that was started to prevent another infinite cycle of destruction. More like a desire to experience and be more than just a human. The baseline concepts to it is pretty much in line with transhumanism. Transhumanism is a real thing, and it's actually where the technological evolution that we've created and are overseeing today will eventually take us.

What the implications of it are: Shepard's non-sensical and contrived death, forcing it on a galaxy without knowledge or consent, how it somehow gives synthetics understanding to an organic. The implications to Synthesis shouldn't be any of these. They should be a voluntary upgrade if you will, and as an outcome of the evolution of technology via the increasing capabilities of all species. And it really only needs to apply to organics. Ieldra said earlier that the implication of it is also to raise the level of organics to a level of comparison to synthetics so that they aren't left in the dust and thus destroyed in a future conflict. Yet that's not how synthesis is explained. It's explained to be the final evolution of all life everywhere and that everything is somehow better through uniformity. Organics and synthetics will no longer kill each other, for reasons that are not elaborated upon by the developers.

The sheer lack of understanding of the concept on the part of the developers: "But there's no more distinction to life anymore. It's all just life!" - Michael Gamble, everyone.

Plus the sheer lack of information that BW has released on it. It's eminently clear to me that the writers behind Synthesis really had no idea what they were going for, besides trying to assuage Casey Hudson's ego and trying to create an idea that was "deep" and "out there". If they had even half the base knowledge of the actual concept, then it would have been carried out in a way similar to the science that Ieldra has come up with. I still wouldn't pick it since I don't agree with it (presentation by the Reapers bit), but I wouldn't be constantly deriding it as complete bull**** or space magic.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 02 avril 2013 - 08:25 .


#390
ruggly

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It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

#391
Mr.House

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ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Even plants are changed.

#392
Ryzaki

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Nerevar-as wrote...

ioannisdenton wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I have to ask. Is anybody sure he didnt get synthesis by accident. Maybe he was just expolring the crucible and got too close to the beam forcing the synthesis cutscene but was so disgusted by the endings he couldnt bring himself to reload and choose destroy..


I weighed the options and chose what I felt was the lesser of three evils. I stand by my choice and am perfectly capable of thinking for myself, thanks.

Hi Mr gaider!!! Continue the great work with dragon age please!!! Keep it up!


I´m worried about DA if that´s his idea of lesser evil... if you don´t want genocide then there´s Control and hoping for the best.


Only way to end mage vs normal war is to make everyone mages? :P Mages and nonmages cannot coexist. Everyone must be the same. B)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 avril 2013 - 08:26 .


#393
ruggly

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Mr.House wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Even plants are changed.


If it really did synthesize Ophiocordyceps unilateralis, then I'm done.  Technically, it's a fungus.  But it turns ants into goddamn zombies.

Modifié par ruggly, 02 avril 2013 - 08:28 .


#394
Fawx9

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Ryzaki wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

ioannisdenton wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I have to ask. Is anybody sure he didnt get synthesis by accident. Maybe he was just expolring the crucible and got too close to the beam forcing the synthesis cutscene but was so disgusted by the endings he couldnt bring himself to reload and choose destroy..


I weighed the options and chose what I felt was the lesser of three evils. I stand by my choice and am perfectly capable of thinking for myself, thanks.

Hi Mr gaider!!! Continue the great work with dragon age please!!! Keep it up!


I´m worried about DA if that´s his idea of lesser evil... if you don´t want genocide then there´s Control and hoping for the best.


Only way to end mage vs normal war is to make everyone mages? :P


I think you mean maplars

Modifié par Fawx9, 02 avril 2013 - 08:26 .


#395
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Fawx9 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"What about me?" Said the wolf. "Why did I have to be changed?"

Image IPB

Yet synthesis even changes these creatures, making them hybrids. It changes all life.


And there is the crux of the problem isn't it? You fear change. You fear the unkown. 


Or it's that the galaxy isn't so broken that we feel the need to change it. 


Exactly. Is our interference necessary? Is the Reaper's intereference necessary? With synthesis one changes nature. One is saying "I am above nature. Nature will bend to my will." That is what the Catalyst is saying. The hubris is astonishing.

#396
Auintus

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Ecrulis wrote...

The entire premise of the problem is based off of what might happen, while we as the players are given no evidence to support it, the geth in 1, 2, or 3 don't count because they are either a splinter faction that gets controlled by the reapers to kill organics in order to prevent them from inventing synthetics that will kill organics (real great cyclical logic there) or a group of beings more peaceful than every organic in the galaxy. The Protheans can't be used as an example because it's stated that organics will create synthetics that will destroy them and the protheans were about to win their war. The only instance where this is shown to be a problem is in the Leviathans cycle where some lesser races created dangerous synthetics and as someone said, one instance does not a pattern make. It's complete nonsense.


The Reapers only destroy some organics, while independent synthetics would likely erradicate them all for the sake of survival.
The Protheans may have won that war, but like in the Leviathan's time, more synthetics would eventually be made until they did win out.
Additionally, the Leviathan's time can be deduced as lasting much longer than the average cycle, as the Catalyst was able to see the cycle repeat enough times to determine that the harvest was the only solution.
So, no, not complete nonsense. If I tell you that a cat is brown, is that all there is to it? No? Then why would you assume that about the cycle?

#397
Nerevar-as

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Mr.House wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Even plants are changed.


It´s likely even microorganisms are changed.

#398
Ecrulis

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

On a serious note, my opinion on why synthesis is bad:

How it's presented: You ascend a beam into a room openly exposed to vacuum and meet a strange glowing child who is the creator of the machines that are hellbent on annihilating galactic civilization every 50,000 years. He doesn't say much at all, yet you are inexplicably compelled to listen to him and accept his idea's that the cycle, or one of it's presented equivalents are necessary so that you can solve a minor plot theme that was already solved 4 main missions ago, and that a choice that requires your death will somehow alter the fabric of all existing life to make the cycle irrelevant because life has been fundamentally changed forever.

The lore, or 'science' (and lack of it I mean) behind it: "Essence of who you are"? Sounds like vitalism, a theme of mysticism, which is basically superstitious belief in inanimate objects. "New DNA"? How does that even work? Most aliens have a different form of DNA from humans. All synthetics don't even have DNA. How does a big, green energy wave cause everyone, every living thing for that matter, to become a cyborg? How is this carried out across space and time in the galaxy? How can it be the final evolution of all life? Isn't that non-sensical since evolution is not equated to perfection but to mutation and adaptation to changing environments?

Who the presenter of it is: The Reapers, the main enemy throughout the entire trilogy who have been consistently shown to be ired by the mere existence of other beings to the point they feel the need to annihilate them, and how they are known to control and manipulate other beings through indoctrination. Why should I start listening to them (especially their creator) now? Haven't they always tried to kill me or manipulate me into doing their bidding before?(protip: using the antagonist as the mouthpiece to present all the final ending options is a narrative no-no).

Why it's being presented: The belief that order vs chaos, or organics and synthetics will fundamentally destroy each other in every circumstance, which I don't believe in. Synthesis may well be possible in the future, but if it's going to be induced, it needs to be for more than a reason to end an infinite cycle of destruction that was started to prevent another infinite cycle of destruction. More like a desire to experience and be more than just a human. The baseline concepts to it is pretty much in line with transhumanism. Transhumanism is a real thing, and it's actually where the technological evolution that we've created and are overseeing today will eventually take us.

What the implications of it are: Shepard's non-sensical and contrived death, forcing it on a galaxy without knowledge or consent, how it somehow gives synthetics understanding to an organic. The implications to Synthesis shouldn't be any of these. They should be a voluntary upgrade if you will, and as an outcome of the evolution of technology via the increasing capabilities of all species. And it really only needs to apply to organics. Ieldra said earlier that the implication of it is also to raise the level of organics to a level of comparison to synthetics so that they aren't left in the dust and thus destroyed in a future conflict. Yet that's not how synthesis is explained. It's explained to be the final evolution of all life everywhere and that everything is somehow better through uniformity. Organics and synthetics will no longer kill each other, for reasons that are not elaborated upon by the developers.

The sheer lack of understanding of the concept on the part of the developers: "But there's no more distinction to life anymore. It's all just life!" - Michael Gamble, everyone.

Plus the sheer lack of information that BW has released on it. It's eminently clear to me that the writers behind Synthesis really had no idea what they were going for, besides trying to assuage Casey Hudson's ego and trying to create an idea that was "deep" and "out there". If they had even half the base knowledge of the actual concept, then it would have been carried out in a way similar to the science that Ieldra has come up with. I still wouldn't pick it since I don't agree with it (presentation by the Reapers bit), but I wouldn't be constantly deriding it as complete bull**** or space magic.


Could not have said it better myself

#399
Eterna

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ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.


Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

#400
Eterna

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"What about me?" Said the wolf. "Why did I have to be changed?"

Image IPB

Yet synthesis even changes these creatures, making them hybrids. It changes all life.


And there is the crux of the problem isn't it? You fear change. You fear the unkown. 


Or it's that the galaxy isn't so broken that we feel the need to change it. 


Exactly. Is our interference necessary? Is the Reaper's intereference necessary? With synthesis one changes nature. One is saying "I am above nature. Nature will bend to my will." That is what the Catalyst is saying. The hubris is astonishing.



If you believe in the technological singularity, then yes, it definitely is. If left to their own devices organics will inevitably destroy themselves.