779 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

I didn't know over time was forcing

[Nerevar-as]

Auintus wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

The entire premise of the problem is based off of what might happen, while we as the players are given no evidence to support it, the geth in 1, 2, or 3 don't count because they are either a splinter faction that gets controlled by the reapers to kill organics in order to prevent them from inventing synthetics that will kill organics (real great cyclical logic there) or a group of beings more peaceful than every organic in the galaxy. The Protheans can't be used as an example because it's stated that organics will create synthetics that will destroy them and the protheans were about to win their war. The only instance where this is shown to be a problem is in the Leviathans cycle where some lesser races created dangerous synthetics and as someone said, one instance does not a pattern make. It's complete nonsense.

The Reapers only destroy some organics, while independent synthetics would likely erradicate them all for the sake of survival.
The Protheans may have won that war, but like in the Leviathan's time, more synthetics would eventually be made until they did win out.
Additionally, the Leviathan's time can be deduced as lasting much longer than the average cycle, as the Catalyst was able to see the cycle repeat enough times to determine that the harvest was the only solution.
So, no, not complete nonsense. If I tell you that a cat is brown, is that all there is to it? No? Then why would you assume that about the cycle?

The Reapers destroy every advanced organic, they just do it in stages. In the end, every planet in the galaxy capable of developing sapient life will have done so and harvested by the corresponding cycle. End game.

And so far, everytime we saw synthetic uprosings in ME was becuase organics treated them like ****. Left alone, synthetics do the logical thing about guys who have nothing in common with them and are no competitors. Almost nothing at all.

[Eterna]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Even plants are changed.

It´s likely even microorganisms are changed.

I'm not getting what is awful about change. 

[Auintus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Exactly. Is our interference necessary? Is the Reaper's intereference necessary? With synthesis one changes nature. One is saying "I am above nature. Nature will bend to my will." That is what the Catalyst is saying. The hubris is astonishing.

A bear is strong. It is faster, more durable, and better insulated than the average human. Look at the human race. We're pitiful. No fur, no claws, basically nothing that makes us evolutionarily viable. Except our minds. Those minds birthed technology, which elevated us above animals and, yes, nature. Technology is our evolution. It's around us, on us, and, in time, within us.
Call it hubris if you like. The fact remains that the only reason our society exists as it does today is because decided that we could do better than evolution gave us. Synthesis is just another step.

[Eterna]

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

I didn't know over time was forcing

The longer you hold your breath under water, the more adept your lungs become at hlding said breath. Eventually youd be able to hold your breath for more than a minute after years of swimming and holding your breath daily. 

You would have changed for the better, but you would have had no choice in the matter. Is this wrong? 

[Eterna]

Auintus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Exactly. Is our interference necessary? Is the Reaper's intereference necessary? With synthesis one changes nature. One is saying "I am above nature. Nature will bend to my will." That is what the Catalyst is saying. The hubris is astonishing.

A bear is strong. It is faster, more durable, and better insulated than the average human. Look at the human race. We're pitiful. No fur, no claws, basically nothing that makes us evolutionarily viable. Except our minds. Those minds birthed technology, which elevated us above animals and, yes, nature. Technology is our evolution. It's around us, on us, and, in time, within us.
Call it hubris if you like. The fact remains that the only reason our society exists as it does today is because decided that we could do better than evolution gave us. Synthesis is just another step.

Technology is also our greatest flaw. It has the power to undo our entire race if mistakes are made. 

[drayfish]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

You might be taking the 'Shepard' name a bit literally, no?

Genuinely: are you advocating the 'selective breeding' of humanity to create an 'ideal' civilisation?

Because the way that sounds (and what it evokes from real world history) is precisely the reason that some people despise it so.*


* Having said that, again: all of the endings suck.  That was the clever twist that Bioware put on them all.

Modifié par drayfish, 02 avril 2013 - 08:38 .

[Auintus]

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Reapers destroy every advanced organic, they just do it in stages. In the end, every planet in the galaxy capable of developing sapient life will have done so and harvested by the corresponding cycle. End game.

And so far, everytime we saw synthetic uprosings in ME was becuase organics treated them like ****. Left alone, synthetics do the logical thing about guys who have nothing in common with them and are no competitors. Almost nothing at all.

And each time, new life will develop. The cycle is only buying time for a new solution. The Catalyst is just too arrogant to understand that it needs us to do it.
"Everytime we saw" is exactly the problem. We saw one cycle, one conflict. Call me crazy, but I'd rather defer to the being who has lived my lifespan several hundred thousand times over. The Catalyst has seen more and each time it came to a similar conclusion. We've seen one cycle. Not even one cycle, five years, maybe. Hardly enough time to make the same judgement.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

Ah yes, a Regression Fallacy. 

Evolution is the natural change and adaptions to a species that is acquired through mutation and to a change in the environment over the longterm.

Also, you're saying that even though someone now has the power to enact artificial evolution, it's no different since evolution simply happened naturally before with no input from affected species.

[Spartas Husky]

Never knew there were so many dung beetles, interesting.

[sveners]

David Gaider wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I have to ask. Is anybody sure he didnt get synthesis by accident. Maybe he was just expolring the crucible and got too close to the beam forcing the synthesis cutscene but was so disgusted by the endings he couldnt bring himself to reload and choose destroy..

I weighed the options and chose what I felt was the lesser of three evils. I stand by my choice and am perfectly capable of thinking for myself, thanks.

Indeed. Lesser of three evils.

On a side note.. thanks for taking the time to reply here. Looking forward to DA3 (please don't leave the franchise.)

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

If I'm reading that correctly, that's natural evolution, not forced man-made evolution on people.  I'm talking about forcibly ascending everyone above and beyond. Can we truly break outside of natural evolution? I guess. Do we need to change some aspects? Sure, but one change for someone is not always the best for another.  This is forcing people into something more, when however many people may not want to become something more for reasons x, y, z.  Plus synthesis forces this on the other 99% of the galaxy that we know nothing about, and that could really screw up a lot, though that is left up to personal speculation of what that could be.  If synthesis played out like drayfish has mentioned, where it is offered to those who want it, then I would be fine with it.

You seem to be fine with becoming something more, but others would truly feel violated.

[Fawx9]

Auintus wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Reapers destroy every advanced organic, they just do it in stages. In the end, every planet in the galaxy capable of developing sapient life will have done so and harvested by the corresponding cycle. End game.

And so far, everytime we saw synthetic uprosings in ME was becuase organics treated them like ****. Left alone, synthetics do the logical thing about guys who have nothing in common with them and are no competitors. Almost nothing at all.

And each time, new life will develop. The cycle is only buying time for a new solution. The Catalyst is just too arrogant to understand that it needs us to do it.
"Everytime we saw" is exactly the problem. We saw one cycle, one conflict. Call me crazy, but I'd rather defer to the being who has lived my lifespan several hundred thousand times over. The Catalyst has seen more and each time it came to a similar conclusion. We've seen one cycle. Not even one cycle, five years, maybe. Hardly enough time to make the same judgement.

I'd rather Shepard believe in me who believes in him and not in a corrupted AI that is hellbent on wiping out everything Shepard knows and cares for.  

[Ryzaki]

Fawx9 wrote...

I think you mean maplars

Sounds like a food.

[Mcfly616]

Seems many peoples issue with Synthesis is that it happens instantly rather than over a period of time.....



Sounds a bit nitpicky to me....

[Auintus]

Eterna5 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

A bear is strong. It is faster, more durable, and better insulated than the average human. Look at the human race. We're pitiful. No fur, no claws, basically nothing that makes us evolutionarily viable. Except our minds. Those minds birthed technology, which elevated us above animals and, yes, nature. Technology is our evolution. It's around us, on us, and, in time, within us.
Call it hubris if you like. The fact remains that the only reason our society exists as it does today is because decided that we could do better than evolution gave us. Synthesis is just another step.

Technology is also our greatest flaw. It has the power to undo our entire race if mistakes are made. 

You don't...you can't...Flaw? You really think...You actually believe...You are using technology, right now. If it's a flaw, drop all of it. But you won't. You are as dependent on it as I am. You can't honestly get on the internet and say that technology is a flaw. It's like hypocrisy in and of itself.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Seems many peoples issue with Synthesis is that it happens instantly rather than over a period of time.....

Sounds a bit nitpicky to me....

That's not the reason at all. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Eterna5 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Exactly. Is our interference necessary? Is the Reaper's intereference necessary? With synthesis one changes nature. One is saying "I am above nature. Nature will bend to my will." That is what the Catalyst is saying. The hubris is astonishing.

A bear is strong. It is faster, more durable, and better insulated than the average human. Look at the human race. We're pitiful. No fur, no claws, basically nothing that makes us evolutionarily viable. Except our minds. Those minds birthed technology, which elevated us above animals and, yes, nature. Technology is our evolution. It's around us, on us, and, in time, within us.
Call it hubris if you like. The fact remains that the only reason our society exists as it does today is because decided that we could do better than evolution gave us. Synthesis is just another step.

Technology is also our greatest flaw. It has the power to undo our entire race if mistakes are made. 

www.youtube.com/watch

Science is our greatest tool. With it, we can create worlds, and destroy worlds.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 02 avril 2013 - 08:47 .

[Eterna]

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

If I'm reading that correctly, that's natural evolution, not forced man-made evolution on people.  I'm talking about forcibly ascending everyone above and beyond. Can we truly break outside of natural evolution? I guess. Do we need to change some aspects? Sure, but one change for someone is not always the best for another.  This is forcing people into something more, when however many people may not want to become something more for reasons x, y, z.  Plus synthesis forces this on the other 99% of the galaxy that we know nothing about, and that could really screw up a lot, though that is left up to personal speculation of what that could be.  If synthesis played out like drayfish has mentioned, where it is offered to those who want it, then I would be fine with it.

You seem to be fine with becoming something more, but others would truly feel violated.

Selective breeding is forced evolution. People in the past have even done so to themselves. 

[AresKeith]

Eterna5 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

I didn't know over time was forcing

The longer you hold your breath under water, the more adept your lungs become at hlding said breath. Eventually youd be able to hold your breath for more than a minute after years of swimming and holding your breath daily. 

You would have changed for the better, but you would have had no choice in the matter. Is this wrong? 

And who's to say Synthesis is a change for the better?

[Mcfly616]

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

I didn't know over time was forcing

The longer you hold your breath under water, the more adept your lungs become at hlding said breath. Eventually youd be able to hold your breath for more than a minute after years of swimming and holding your breath daily. 

You would have changed for the better, but you would have had no choice in the matter. Is this wrong? 

And who's to say Synthesis is a change for the better?

who's to say it isn't?

[Nerevar-as]

Auintus wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Reapers destroy every advanced organic, they just do it in stages. In the end, every planet in the galaxy capable of developing sapient life will have done so and harvested by the corresponding cycle. End game.

And so far, everytime we saw synthetic uprosings in ME was becuase organics treated them like ****. Left alone, synthetics do the logical thing about guys who have nothing in common with them and are no competitors. Almost nothing at all.

And each time, new life will develop. The cycle is only buying time for a new solution. The Catalyst is just too arrogant to understand that it needs us to do it.
"Everytime we saw" is exactly the problem. We saw one cycle, one conflict. Call me crazy, but I'd rather defer to the being who has lived my lifespan several hundred thousand times over. The Catalyst has seen more and each time it came to a similar conclusion. We've seen one cycle. Not even one cycle, five years, maybe. Hardly enough time to make the same judgement.

I call you crazy. You are deferring to the judgement of the greatest monsters in the universe. Age and knowledge aren´t wisdom. Synthetics have always killed organics because it is the one leading them. And my point was, there´ll come a time when no planet will remain able to develop sapient life. End. Fin. Mission successful, order was brought, and order ends in stagnation and fades into nothingess (sorry, too much Moorcock during my teens).

[Eterna]

Auintus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

A bear is strong. It is faster, more durable, and better insulated than the average human. Look at the human race. We're pitiful. No fur, no claws, basically nothing that makes us evolutionarily viable. Except our minds. Those minds birthed technology, which elevated us above animals and, yes, nature. Technology is our evolution. It's around us, on us, and, in time, within us.
Call it hubris if you like. The fact remains that the only reason our society exists as it does today is because decided that we could do better than evolution gave us. Synthesis is just another step.

Technology is also our greatest flaw. It has the power to undo our entire race if mistakes are made. 

You don't...you can't...Flaw? You really think...You actually believe...You are using technology, right now. If it's a flaw, drop all of it. But you won't. You are as dependent on it as I am. You can't honestly get on the internet and say that technology is a flaw. It's like hypocrisy in and of itself.

You've misunderstood, technology is our greatest achievement, it gives us the ability to harness our world and improve our lives. But, there is always the possibility that our own technology could be our own downfall.

That is the technological singularity, that is what the ending is about. For all the good technology brings, one mistake with dangerous technology could undo our entire species, hell all organic life on our planet. 

That is what the Catalyst was made to prevent, he was made to stop all organic life from destroying itself with technology. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 02 avril 2013 - 08:49 .

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

It's not that I'm afraid of change, far from it. It's the fact that I am forcing this change on every single being. It makes me feel awful (and all of the endings do, really), so therefore I won't choose it. I like to head canon the galaxy coming to synthesis on it's own terms. It may be a long and bloody path, but much more rewarding in my mind, and a lesson learned.

Evolution and change is always forced upon organisms. We have never have any choice in the matter.

Do you find selective breeding wrong? 

If I'm reading that correctly, that's natural evolution, not forced man-made evolution on people.  I'm talking about forcibly ascending everyone above and beyond. Can we truly break outside of natural evolution? I guess. Do we need to change some aspects? Sure, but one change for someone is not always the best for another.  This is forcing people into something more, when however many people may not want to become something more for reasons x, y, z.  Plus synthesis forces this on the other 99% of the galaxy that we know nothing about, and that could really screw up a lot, though that is left up to personal speculation of what that could be.  If synthesis played out like drayfish has mentioned, where it is offered to those who want it, then I would be fine with it.

You seem to be fine with becoming something more, but others would truly feel violated.

Selective breeding is forced evolution. People in the past have even done so to themselves. 

And there is a difference between doing it to themselves and forcing it on people who are not participating. An individual can upgrade themselves all they want, I'm going to have an issue if they start forcing me to upgrade for the betterment of humanity.

I even find designer babies a bit disturbing.

Edit: I'm not saying that synthesis won't ever bring good, I'm just saying I'd rather see it come on our own terms. If people don't want it, then they're free to ignore it.

Modifié par ruggly, 02 avril 2013 - 08:49 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Eterna5 wrote...
The longer you hold your breath under water, the more adept your lungs become at hlding said breath. Eventually youd be able to hold your breath for more than a minute after years of swimming and holding your breath daily. 

You would have changed for the better, but you would have had no choice in the matter. Is this wrong? 

Underlined the problem with your interpretation, you're treating evolution as an overall improvement, it's an adaptation to a given environment, it's not a steady line forward there are trade offs. An organism can either seek environment which is more suited to it's current adaptation or try it luck in surviving one it isn't suited for.

In your anology the person is better at swimming, whether or not that's a benefit is determined by their enviorment only a specific benefit to them. Someone who relies more on mountain biking gets no benefit from being able to hold their breath. So yes it's wrong to force them to change without need.