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[Auintus]

Riot86 wrote...

Of course it changes the way people think...

Pre-Synthesis Javik would never accept such a change and would throw himself out of the airlock if something like that would ever happen to him. But afterwards he seems to conclude that it isn't so bad after all and is apparently cool with it.

Pre-Synthesis nearly everyone understandably wants to kill the Reapers as they are responsible for the deaths of their friends and family. But afterward they seem to decide that they no longer have to hate the Reapers and get along well with them.

If Synthesis changes the conclusions people reach via their thought process, it effectively has changed the way they think.

How can this still be up for debate?

It doesn't show anything that Javik does after the crash. Maybe he did space himself. Maybe he got off his high horse and quit being such a pain.

True, but when "big, scary machine that is trying to laser us to death" becomes "big, scary machine that is helping us rebuild" that kind of opinion could change rather quickly. Maybe the Catalyst explained what happened on the Crucible, Shepard's sacrifice and the Reaper's new intentions. I don't know.

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Ehm, do you trust someone who's responsible for countless of complete exterminations? For all we know he may have needed us to 'push the button' so he can hurry this cycle's slaughter along, instead of a few centuries with more than a couple capital reapers destroyed in the process. You're still looking with hindsight and use it to rationalize a gamble.

No. No hindsight. Trust.
I believed that it would have left me to die or brought everything down on the Crucible has it truly wanted me stopped. Since it goes out of its way to get me up and explain the Crucible, I assume it's genuine. Otherwise it could've let me flail around with no idea what I was doing. As I've said, no sane individual would shoot a precision device and hope it works. Destroy would never occur by chance. Synthesis might occur by accident. Control would be the most likely if the Catalyst didn't even appear.

Hindsight still, you don't account for it wanting you to come up, it needs a solid being to 'press a button'. Either you're way too trusting or you're not thinking things through properly. I never understand why one can shamelessly say they trust a mass murderer.

Also, how can destroy never occur by chance? If anything chance has destroyed a great deal in the world. I'm quite sure alot of lives have been destroyed by gambling their livelihoods on chance.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Auintus wrote...
Maybe, but then you wouldn't know what to believe and what not to believe. I'm tired, losing blood, and just barely got Tali out without her getting killed. I'm not gonna worry about that. Occum's Razor, I think. Simplest solution.

Of course. It could be lying to me about anything. I could jump into the beam and not disintigrate until I impale myself on that pointy thing in the middle while the Catalyst chuckles and says to the Reapers, "See? Was that so hard? Now let's wrap this up." But I believe that it knows what's going on and actually wants to see the cycle close, if only so that it's objective will be completed.

I have no doubt in my mind it wants to see it's objective completed. I also want to accomplish my objective. 

His is to solve his problem. Mine is to stop galactic annihilation. Despite how similar or aligned my goals may be though, just because he appears and tells me the problem of his existence isn't going to incline me to agree with him or listen to his logic. It's unsound from the get go. Synthesis, as is presented, is scientifically flawed. And the catalysts statements contradict what the Reapers have stated to me previously. Perhaps it's trying to indoctrinate me through false reasoning? Trying to present me with a problem to accept the necessity of its solution? No I'm afraid I can only trust myself here. I'm going to end the cycle by taking the boy and his toys out of the equation permanently.

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

The synthesis ending is the counterpoint to your claim Auintus. Here:



Welcome!

Yes, I've seen that. Several times. (Except the part with Jack at the graves. Always kept the kids off the front lines) Could you be more specific?

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

blaaaaaaaaaarg wrote...

chmarr wrote...

*snip*

That might be the best thing I've seen all day.

No your avater is the best thing seen all day

Where is that from ?

[ghost9191]

don't know him... but one sec i need to find my care cup

* looks around *

\\_/ HOLY F*CKING S*IT BATMAN... it is empty

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Synthesis does not change how they think.

Come on now, thats manifestly false.

Proof? No, not proof, evidence?
I have offered reasons for my beliefs and you say they are wrong without any counterpoints. I wonder how seriously I'll take your opinion...

. Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?

[Auintus]

Zavox wrote...

Hindsight still, you don't account for it wanting you to come up, it needs a solid being to 'press a button'. Either you're way too trusting or you're not thinking things through properly. I never understand why one can shamelessly say they trust a mass murderer.

Also, how can destroy never occur by chance? If anything chance has destroyed a great deal in the world. I'm quite sure alot of lives have been destroyed by gambling their livelihoods on chance.

...I remember you. We've had this discussion before.
Anyway, after the Crucible is attached, the Catalyst assists you in bringing the cycle to a close, by whatever means. To choose Destroy, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Control, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Synthesis, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Refuse, you have to be willing to flush everyone's lives and all you fought for down the toilet, but that comment's just here for completion's sake.
The point is: You can't take any option without trusting the Catalyst to some extent. I've made quite clear the reason for my beliefs. It could have just left me to bleed out and instead chose to help.

The Destroy ending would not occur by chance. You have to shoot a rather important-looking cell several times, which usually keeps machines from functioning, rather than activating them. So Destroy probably wouldn't happen without the Catalyst's help.

[ghost9191]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Synthesis does not change how they think.

Come on now, thats manifestly false.

dude it is prety simple... you look around and see how ppl are . even in that future. there is no way to achieve what is talked about in synthesis without changing what and who ppl are ..

[Auintus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I have no doubt in my mind it wants to see it's objective completed. I also want to accomplish my objective. 

His is to solve his problem. Mine is to stop galactic annihilation. Despite how similar or aligned my goals may be though, just because he appears and tells me the problem of his existence isn't going to incline me to agree with him or listen to his logic. It's unsound from the get go. Synthesis, as is presented, is scientifically flawed. And the catalysts statements contradict what the Reapers have stated to me previously. Perhaps it's trying to indoctrinate me through false reasoning? Trying to present me with a problem to accept the necessity of its solution? No I'm afraid I can only trust myself here. I'm going to end the cycle by taking the boy and his toys out of the equation permanently.

But then why would it bring you up at all? Why tell you anything if it intends to continue the harvest?

Wait, wait, wait. You choose Refuse? That is the only option that does not rely on trusting the Catalyst.

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Yes, I've seen that. Several times. (Except the part with Jack at the graves. Always kept the kids off the front lines) Could you be more specific?

Sure. The strange green light brought a sudden end to hostilities.

Uh, yeah. Reapers have no more need to fight, so they stop. People wonder what the hell is going on, they stop. Doesn't require any sort of thought change.

[Aaleel]

I can just never pick this option.

Picking Synthesis just represents total agreement with the Catalyst logic. You don't trust the organic races, yours included to make it on your own as you are. You're doomed if you don't change, so you change everyone in the way you see fit to make them get along.

Control: You're kind of on the fence, you think you can make a future the way you are, but you need a safety net in the Catalyst and the reapers in case things don't work casting a constant shadow on the galaxy.

Destroy: You're saying the Catalyst logic is BS, you can make it on your own, and that you're fine the way you are so the Catalyst can take his reapers and go kick rocks.

[SmokePants]

Zavox wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

I find it hilarious when people say they picked Destroy because they don't trust the Catalyst.

You obviously trusted that Destroy does what the Catalyst says it will. Somehow, it makes sense to you that a character trying to trick you would also hand you a loaded gun. Talk about "flawed intelligence".

Who said I picked destroy? Though, for the sake of the argument, let's say I do. Which of the 3 will have the best probability of doing something without having to needlessly sacrifice your life.

-Shooting a tube, making it explode.
-Electrocuting yourself while merely grabbing pipes.
-Throwing yourself in a glowing hole, completely disintegrating yourself in the process.

Seems pretty obvious, no?

Edit: What do you mean "hand you a loaded gun"? What the hell did I have in my hand when I shot the Illusive Man then?

That's fair. I can swallow that. But why not shoot the Catalyst? Seems like your odds of survival would be even better. Meta-knowledge takes that option off the table, but if Shepard really didn't trust the Catalyst, wouldn't he try to disable the thing and hope the Reapers go offline?

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Proof? No, not proof, evidence?
I have offered reasons for my beliefs and you say they are wrong without any counterpoints. I wonder how seriously I'll take your opinion...

. Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?

"Would you kindly..." Nightmares.

Anyway, what now? Wreav got eated by Kalros. It was awesome.

[Riot86]

Auintus wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

Of course it changes the way people think...

Pre-Synthesis Javik would never accept such a change and would throw himself out of the airlock if something like that would ever happen to him. But afterwards he seems to conclude that it isn't so bad after all and is apparently cool with it.

Pre-Synthesis nearly everyone understandably wants to kill the Reapers as they are responsible for the deaths of their friends and family. But afterward they seem to decide that they no longer have to hate the Reapers and get along well with them.

If Synthesis changes the conclusions people reach via their thought process, it effectively has changed the way they think.

How can this still be up for debate?

It doesn't show anything that Javik does after the crash. Maybe he did space himself. Maybe he got off his high horse and quit being such a pain.

True, but when "big, scary machine that is trying to laser us to death" becomes "big, scary machine that is helping us rebuild" that kind of opinion could change rather quickly. Maybe the Catalyst explained what happened on the Crucible, Shepard's sacrifice and the Reaper's new intentions. I don't know.

That is pure speculation without any in-game indications to back it up.

The evidence we get presented in the epilogue clearly points in a different direction. And as far as I can recall you asked for "evidence" to support my claim.

Steelcan wrote...

. Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?

...even more evidence

[Auintus]

ghost9191 wrote...

dude it is prety simple... you look around and see how ppl are . even in that future. there is no way to achieve what is talked about in synthesis without changing what and who ppl are ..

The what, yes. The who, no. Everyone acts the same as they do otherwise. There is no evidence to suggest mental modifications.

[Auintus]

[quote]Riot86 wrote...

[quote]Auintus wrote...

[quote]Riot86 wrote...

Of course it changes the way people think...

Pre-Synthesis Javik would never accept such a change and would throw himself out of the airlock if something like that would ever happen to him. But afterwards he seems to conclude that it isn't so bad after all and is apparently cool with it.

Pre-Synthesis nearly everyone understandably wants to kill the Reapers as they are responsible for the deaths of their friends and family. But afterward they seem to decide that they no longer have to hate the Reapers and get along well with them.

If Synthesis changes the conclusions people reach via their thought process, it effectively has changed the way they think.

How can this still be up for debate?
[/quote]

It doesn't show anything that Javik does after the crash. Maybe he did space himself. Maybe he got off his high horse and quit being such a pain.

True, but when "big, scary machine that is trying to laser us to death" becomes "big, scary machine that is helping us rebuild" that kind of opinion could change rather quickly. Maybe the Catalyst explained what happened on the Crucible, Shepard's sacrifice and the Reaper's new intentions. I don't know.
[/quote]
That is pure speculation without any in-game indications to back it up.

The evidence we get presented in the epilogue clearly points in a different direction. And as far as I can recall you asked for "evidence" to support my claim.[/quote][/quote]

The bit about the Catalyst explanation, yeah. I made that up, it was just an idea.
I don't know what Javik did after the crash. Neither do you. That can't be taken as evidence one way or the other.
As for the battle, even in Control, once the Reapers stop fighting, so does everyone else. Confusion, I figure. There is no evidence to suggest mental modification.

[quote][quote]Steelcan wrote...

. Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?
[/quote]
...even more evidence

[/quote]

Wreav's dead. I don't know what you are referring to here.

Modifié par Auintus, 03 avril 2013 - 12:29 .

[ghost9191]

Auintus wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

dude it is prety simple... you look around and see how ppl are . even in that future. there is no way to achieve what is talked about in synthesis without changing what and who ppl are ..

The what, yes. The who, no. Everyone acts the same as they do otherwise. There is no evidence to suggest mental modifications.

ok stand by my point... i mean sure the fact that these machines were just slaughtering billions means nothing. let us holds hands and acts like nothings happens liek the naive puppies we be


yeah tried to screw up the grammer

anycase my point stands. the ending does suggest it

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Didn't I just link you the syntheisis ending?

Yes, which I have seen several times. I reiterate: There is no evidence to suggest mental modification of organics in the Synthesis ending. None. Zilch, Nada. Almost everything that does occur is identical to Control, in which there is even less reason to suspect mental change.

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Hindsight still, you don't account for it wanting you to come up, it needs a solid being to 'press a button'. Either you're way too trusting or you're not thinking things through properly. I never understand why one can shamelessly say they trust a mass murderer.

Also, how can destroy never occur by chance? If anything chance has destroyed a great deal in the world. I'm quite sure alot of lives have been destroyed by gambling their livelihoods on chance.

...I remember you. We've had this discussion before.
Anyway, after the Crucible is attached, the Catalyst assists you in bringing the cycle to a close, by whatever means. To choose Destroy, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Control, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Synthesis, you have to trust the Catalyst. To choose Refuse, you have to be willing to flush everyone's lives and all you fought for down the toilet, but that comment's just here for completion's sake.
The point is: You can't take any option without trusting the Catalyst to some extent. I've made quite clear the reason for my beliefs. It could have just left me to bleed out and instead chose to help.

The Destroy ending would not occur by chance. You have to shoot a rather important-looking cell several times, which usually keeps machines from functioning, rather than activating them. So Destroy probably wouldn't happen without the Catalyst's help.

You're making too many assumptions mate. Your reason has been stated enough times, that still doesn't argue the point I make. (That you leave out the option of the catalyst needing you so he can do something worse than he already is). Secondly, you're assuming that I would choose destroy for the reasons the catalyst gives me. No, I would not do it because of those reasons, I would do it because I think shooting a relatively important looking tube (as you say yourself) is more likely to shut down the catalyst (leader of the reapers apperantly) than grabbing an electric rod or throwing yourself in a pit. Though, if I were not constrained by Bioware's given choices I would've told Hackett to blow the place I'm standing at to smithereens.

[phillip100]

Auintus wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?

...even more evidence

Wreav's dead. I don't know what you are referring to here.

In your game, that's true, but for others, it may not be true. Just pointing that out.

Modifié par phillip100, 03 avril 2013 - 12:34 .