779 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

ghost9191 wrote...

ok stand by my point... i mean sure the fact that these machines were just slaughtering billions means nothing. let us holds hands and acts like nothings happens liek the naive puppies we be


yeah tried to screw up the grammer

anycase my point stands. the ending does suggest it

Right, because when the giant machines that were previously kicking your puny organic hindquarters stop shooting, the best thing to do is keep shooting them until they reinitiate hostilities in self-defense. That makes perfect sense.

[daaaav]

Auintus wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

"If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body." (Samara)

Destroy only kills Synthetics.

Synthesis however basically "kills" everyone and replaces them with people who might look the same but think differently. But their old self is gone, "dead" so to speak.

This always comes up, why is that?
Synthesis does not change how they think. In the ending slides, everyone behaves as they do in the other endings, they are clearly the same individuals. Their is no evidence to suggest that there is any sort of fundamental difference in their thought patterns.
Based on that belief, your conclusin makes sense, but I think that belief is unfounded.

Then what does synthesis do?

If it doesn't change the nature of organics and synthetics then it doesn't fix the catalysts "problem" and is utterly pointless. If it does fix the catalysts problem, then it has changed the nature of organic and synthetic life. 

[Auintus]

phillip100 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Wreav's dead. I don't know what you are referring to here.

In your game, that's true, but for others, it may not be true.

Okay, one time I played through to save Mordin. I met Wreav then. Now I don't know what happens in the slides, since no one is kind enough to tell me after I point out that I have not seen it, but Wreav seemed intent on holding the galaxy hostage under the threat of another krogan uprising. That is the extent of my knowledge.

[essarr71]

phillip100 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Would you kindly explain Wreav's sudden 180 in Synthesis then?

...even more evidence

Wreav's dead. I don't know what you are referring to here.

In your game, that's true, but for others, it may not be true. Just pointing that out.

Don't bother.  He's ignoring the point.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Auintus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I have no doubt in my mind it wants to see it's objective completed. I also want to accomplish my objective. 

His is to solve his problem. Mine is to stop galactic annihilation. Despite how similar or aligned my goals may be though, just because he appears and tells me the problem of his existence isn't going to incline me to agree with him or listen to his logic. It's unsound from the get go. Synthesis, as is presented, is scientifically flawed. And the catalysts statements contradict what the Reapers have stated to me previously. Perhaps it's trying to indoctrinate me through false reasoning? Trying to present me with a problem to accept the necessity of its solution? No I'm afraid I can only trust myself here. I'm going to end the cycle by taking the boy and his toys out of the equation permanently.

But then why would it bring you up at all? Why tell you anything if it intends to continue the harvest?

Wait, wait, wait. You choose Refuse? That is the only option that does not rely on trusting the Catalyst.

Perhaps it wishes to deceive? I believe it wishes to end the cycle. And I believe it wishes me to choose synthesis, since, from its point of view, it is the perfect solution to its problem. Since I believe that the entire premise of the problem, not to mention the solution, is deeply flawed, I will accept that this construct is incapable of lying, but also capable of developing preferences. I believe it would want me to accept its analysis. I do not.

I'm a destroyer.

[ghost9191]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Didn't I just link you the syntheisis ending?

Yes, which I have seen several times. I reiterate: There is no evidence to suggest mental modification of organics in the Synthesis ending. None. Zilch, Nada. Almost everything that does occur is identical to Control, in which there is even less reason to suspect mental change.

dude hell as i said just look around. pay attention to things that happen in the mass effect univiverse. the way ppl react to the reapers and their thoughts.... you could not acieve what happens in the synthesis ending without changing who ppl are

as soon as you start sharing thoughts and bs , you change who you are ... of course the "hive mind" if you will is just implied

but again simple statement stays the same. you cannot achieve that without changing who ppl are ... yay for being human ... 

by that i mean you ccannot make us better lol you would have to change a lot to do so . make us something we are not

but that may just be too deep of a conversation

goes into what it means to be human... and the good and bad .. that kinda crap . kinda reminds me of serenity in a way ( firefly series that had a movie )

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 12:42 .

[Auintus]

Zavox wrote...

You're making too many assumptions mate. Your reason has been stated enough times, that still doesn't argue the point I make. (That you leave out the option of the catalyst needing you so he can do something worse than he already is). Secondly, you're assuming that I would choose destroy for the reasons the catalyst gives me. No, I would not do it because of those reasons, I would do it because I think shooting a relatively important looking tube (as you say yourself) is more likely to shut down the catalyst (leader of the reapers apperantly) than grabbing an electric rod or throwing yourself in a pit. Though, if I were not constrained by Bioware's given choices I would've told Hackett to blow the place I'm standing at to smithereens.

Worse than killing and liquifying the galaxy? Sure.
It's already got the galaxy under its thumb, why would it want anything else? It isn't out to torture anyone. Leviathan explains its purpose, which matches up quite nicely with what the Catalyst itself says. So I trust it when it gives its reasons.

Wait, what? You would shoot an exposed tube and hope that it shuts down an AI that is almost literally older than dirt? You really think it would expose itself like that?

[Auintus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Perhaps it wishes to deceive? I believe it wishes to end the cycle. And I believe it wishes me to choose synthesis, since, from its point of view, it is the perfect solution to its problem. Since I believe that the entire premise of the problem, not to mention the solution, is deeply flawed, I will accept that this construct is incapable of lying, but also capable of developing preferences. I believe it would want me to accept its analysis. I do not.

I'm a destroyer.

But if it was decieving you, why would it give you a winning option at all? It could say that the tube just controls the energy and shooting it would cause the Crucible to destroy itself. It could tell you any number of things to push you in the right direction if it wanted to. Since their are options distasteful to it (it says it would not want to be replaced by you in Control) then I think it is being honest. Otherwise, it would construct a better "I win" scenario.

[ghost9191]

the fact the catalyst doesn't see how it is wrong just goes to show the lack of understanding on its part

i mean it liquifies ppl while they are alive... definition of torture maybe?

[Auintus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Perhaps it wishes to deceive? I believe it wishes to end the cycle. And I believe it wishes me to choose synthesis, since, from its point of view, it is the perfect solution to its problem. Since I believe that the entire premise of the problem, not to mention the solution, is deeply flawed, I will accept that this construct is incapable of lying, but also capable of developing preferences. I believe it would want me to accept its analysis. I do not.

I'm a destroyer.

But if it was decieving you, why would it give you a winning option at all? It could say that the tube just controls the energy and shooting it would cause the Crucible to destroy itself. It could tell you any number of things to push you in the right direction if it wanted to. Since their are options distasteful to it (it says it would not want to be replaced by you in Control) then I think it is being honest. Otherwise, it would construct a better "I win" scenario.

Even Destroy requires some measure of trust. If you start nit-picking on what you believe and what you don't you might as well throw the whole thing out the window.

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Ah, so you're amending your statement to mean modification of organics? Oh dear, how very embarrassing for you! Still, it begs the question: did you actually watch the synthesis ending yet?

Y E S. I  H A V E  S E E N  T H E  S Y N T H E S I S  E N D I N G.  S E V E R A L  T I M E S.  C A N  Y O U  R E A D  T H I S?

Modifié par Auintus, 03 avril 2013 - 12:52 .

[Megaton_Hope]

How does that make up for the Geth? The Geth are still dead, the Reapers were partly organic already (apparently, as per ME2), this mainly has an effect on organic species and their mechanical servants, like EDI and Avina.

[ghost9191]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Ah, so you're amending your statement to mean modification of organics? Oh dear, how very embarrassing for you! Still, it begs the question: did you actually watch the synthesis ending yet?

Y E S.  S E V E R A L  T I M E S. C A N  Y O U  R E A D  T H I S?

dude no one can read that

( ignore the fact i responded to the question please ) 

way to biased

also was gonna respond to another post and jsut used this one. see comment below


come to think of it ... ppl that choose synthesis are destroyer too ... oh well

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 12:51 .

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

You're making too many assumptions mate. Your reason has been stated enough times, that still doesn't argue the point I make. (That you leave out the option of the catalyst needing you so he can do something worse than he already is). Secondly, you're assuming that I would choose destroy for the reasons the catalyst gives me. No, I would not do it because of those reasons, I would do it because I think shooting a relatively important looking tube (as you say yourself) is more likely to shut down the catalyst (leader of the reapers apperantly) than grabbing an electric rod or throwing yourself in a pit. Though, if I were not constrained by Bioware's given choices I would've told Hackett to blow the place I'm standing at to smithereens.

Worse than killing and liquifying the galaxy? Sure.
It's already got the galaxy under its thumb, why would it want anything else? It isn't out to torture anyone. Leviathan explains its purpose, which matches up quite nicely with what the Catalyst itself says. So I trust it when it gives its reasons.

Wait, what? You would shoot an exposed tube and hope that it shuts down an AI that is almost literally older than dirt? You really think it would expose itself like that?

It can shorten the reaper process for example, make reapers stronger, another slave race, who knows, so many possibilities for deceiving you. As for the Leviathan's explanation, that is a moot point, it actually shows the catalyst is capable of doing whatever it takes, even deceiving/betraying. So it's an argument that can go either way.

Yes, I would shoot an exposed tube, as I've been saying countless times, even in our previous discussion, it's better than grabbing an electric rod or jumping in a pit for no reason at all but the enemies words.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Auintus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Perhaps it wishes to deceive? I believe it wishes to end the cycle. And I believe it wishes me to choose synthesis, since, from its point of view, it is the perfect solution to its problem. Since I believe that the entire premise of the problem, not to mention the solution, is deeply flawed, I will accept that this construct is incapable of lying, but also capable of developing preferences. I believe it would want me to accept its analysis. I do not.

I'm a destroyer.

But if it was decieving you, why would it give you a winning option at all? It could say that the tube just controls the energy and shooting it would cause the Crucible to destroy itself. It could tell you any number of things to push you in the right direction if it wanted to. Since their are options distasteful to it (it says it would not want to be replaced by you in Control) then I think it is being honest. Otherwise, it would construct a better "I win" scenario.

Even Destroy requires some measure of trust. If you start nit-picking on what you believe and what you don't you might as well throw the whole thing out the window.

As I said. I was speculating on the deception part. Again, it may have preferences. Synthesis is its perfect solution. That doesn't mean that other options aren't available. And it possibly has a stipulation in its core logic to inform the user of all possibilities, even if it doesn't like them. It has the power to develop its own likings.

Nonetheless, it's possible that it is still bound by protocol to inform the user of all possibilities. 

I do. I made my own ending. Pure headcanon and fanfiction of course.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 avril 2013 - 12:55 .

[Auintus]

Zavox wrote...

It can shorten the reaper process for example, make reapers stronger, another slave race, who knows, so many possibilities for deceiving you. As for the Leviathan's explanation, that is a moot point, it actually shows the catalyst is capable of doing whatever it takes, even deceiving/betraying. So it's an argument that can go either way.

Yes, I would shoot an exposed tube, as I've been saying countless times, even in our previous discussion, it's better than grabbing an electric rod or jumping in a pit for no reason at all but the enemies words.

Not true. The fact that the Leviathan and the Catalyst give you identical information at different times indicates that the information is accurate. There's a technical term for it, I think, but that's beside the point.

But you shoot something that you have no idea what it does in the hopes that it shuts down the Catalyst instead of just fizzling and keeping the Crucible from firing?

[Auintus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

As I said. I was speculating on the deception part. Again, it may have preferences. Synthesis is its perfect solution. That doesn't mean that other options aren't available. And it possibly has a stipulation in its core logic to inform the user of all possibilities, even if it doesn't like them. It has the power to develop its own likings.

Nonetheless, it's possible that it is still bound by protocol to inform the user of all possibilities. 

I do. I made my own ending. Pure headcanon and fanfiction of course.

It would obviously prefer Synthesis. It doesn't want to be overwritten or destroyed. However, that does not mean that any information that it gives is inaccurate with regards to Synthesis.

Oh, cool. Sorry if I came off poorly. I've just had bad experiences with Destroyers. Sometimes I forget that some of them are okay. Most of them, probably.

[Riot86]

Auintus wrote...

Uh, yeah. Reapers have no more need to fight, so they stop. People wonder what the hell is going on, they stop. Doesn't require any sort of thought change.

This is getting ridicoulus...

At first people might be confused, I'll give you that. But afterwards?

So, those Space-monsters who might have brutally slaughtered your little baby brother right before your eyes and turned your girlfriend into a husk without anything you could do about it except hearing her bloodcurdling screams of pain suddently stop fighting. Do you really want to say your reaction would be "Cool, you're helping us rebuild, we should definately drink a beer together some time"?
I doubt it....

However even if you would react that way, it is highly(!) unlikely that everyone in the whole MEU would think that way. I'm pretty sure Joker would kick Reaper butts once he realizes that his sister is dead and Jack would most certainly avenge the death of their students as well. But they don't do that in the epilogue. Why is that?

There is enough evidence in the epilogue that shows that people don't act according to how their character would before being synthesized, thus indicating that they think differently than before. You on the other hand did not present a single piece of in-game evidence that might disprove this claim or support your own - you are just speculating.

(Which is fine on its own, don't get me wrong - speculating is fun. But when "pure speculation" now counts as a valid argument, well then there is no reason to criticize Destroy anymore. Because then I could just claim that the Geth survived as we don't see their dead bodies in the epilogue after all. But that would be weak reasoning, because all solid evidence we get in the game suggests otherwise.)

Modifié par Riot86, 03 avril 2013 - 01:05 .

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

It can shorten the reaper process for example, make reapers stronger, another slave race, who knows, so many possibilities for deceiving you. As for the Leviathan's explanation, that is a moot point, it actually shows the catalyst is capable of doing whatever it takes, even deceiving/betraying. So it's an argument that can go either way.

Yes, I would shoot an exposed tube, as I've been saying countless times, even in our previous discussion, it's better than grabbing an electric rod or jumping in a pit for no reason at all but the enemies words.

Not true. The fact that the Leviathan and the Catalyst give you identical information at different times indicates that the information is accurate. There's a technical term for it, I think, but that's beside the point.

But you shoot something that you have no idea what it does in the hopes that it shuts down the Catalyst instead of just fizzling and keeping the Crucible from firing?

No it doesn't do that at all. The Leviathans created the Catalyst, obviously he has the same information as they do. It's not in his disadvantage to give the same information if he wants to deceive you, it may actually benefit him.

Yes, atleast rather than jumping in a pit (dying) or grabbing a rod (dying). Though, I guess by the way you wrote it I would just have to say I would choose refuse then. The catalyst options are too ridiculous to be called rational either way.

[Auintus]

Riot86 wrote...

This is getting ridicoulus...

At first people might be confused, I'll give you that. But afterwards?

So, those Space-monsters who might have brutally slaughtered your little baby brother right before your eyes and turned your girlfriend into a husk without anything you could do about it except hearing her bloodcurdling screams of pain suddently stop fighting. Do you really want to say your reaction would be "Cool, you're helping us rebuild, we should definately drink a beer together some time"?
I doubt it....

However even if you would react that way, it is highly(!) unlikely that everyone in the whole MEU would think that way. I'm pretty sure Joker would kick Reaper butts once he realizes that his sister is dead and Jack would most certainly avenge the death of their students as well. But they don't do that in the epilogue. Why is that?

There is enough evidence in the epilogue that shows that people don't act according to how their character would before being synthesized, thus indicating that they think differently than before. You on the other hand did not present a single piece of in-game evidence that might disprove this claim or support your own - you are just speculating.

I never said anything about afterwards. Neither of us have enough data for that.

So...you're saying that once these great machines of death are pacified and helpful, everyone would try to attack them in revenge? Considering that they were getting seriouly whipped before the Synthesis wave? Do you have any idea how idiotic of an idea that would be? I'm not saying they'd be friends. Nobody is seen directly interacting with a Reaper, so their personal feeling are unknown. However, nobody is going to restart that war for the sake of revenge.

No evidence. You are extrapolating from their initial personality without taking into account vast changes in the situation. Normally not a bad idea, but I think I've addressed the issue.

[Blarg]

IMNOTCRAZYiminsane wrote...

blaaaaaaaaaarg wrote...

chmarr wrote...

*snip*

That might be the best thing I've seen all day.

No your avater is the best thing seen all day

Where is that from ?

Thanks. 

I've been getting that question a lot. It's from the ME2 cinematic trailer. Found the gif on Google images.

[MetioricTest]

I'm disappointed that Gaider wouldn't find Synthesis odd. I've played and loved both Dragon Age games along with reading all 3 of the novels, and the guy seems to have quite a strong attraction to the idea of very different people with very different attitudes coming together for the sake of a common cause whilst still retaining their individuality.

It seems strange to me that he would then choose to make everybody the same because it "removes conflict."... I can't imagine how bad his novels would have been if they had ended with "And then the Elves/Humans, mages/nonmages etc merged into 1 so there was no longer an issue."

Call me paranoid but I can't help but think the guy is just trying to do Bioware a solid by praising the obviously intended super-good ending

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Then why do you insist on making such stupefyingly dense claims for such an uncomplicated proposition?

I mean, are you really saying that the strange green light brought an abrupt end to hostilities because synthetics suddenly understood what had transpired? Assuming you are, please explain to us all exactly what it is about the in game presentation of synthesis that could possibly make you think that it wouldn’t influence organics and synthetics equally. Assuming you aren’t, please stop chatting fart about synthesis not changing organics and synthetics as a matter of mind. 

We'll do this slowly, step by step:
1) Initial wave, Reapers cease hostilities as their mission is complete, races cease hostilities due to confusion/fear of restarting war.
2) Immediate aftereffects: Reapers assist in rebuilding. races understand assistance and would not desire another war. Maybe some fringe individuals would immediately dig through the Reapers' libraries.
3) Reaper war is slowly forgotten. Reapers are seen as allies, treasure troves of knowledge.

Note that most the above is speculation, but at least it is logical speculation.

Synthetics are affected mentally. Their flaw was the inability to understand the organic mind. Organics are affected physically, they sought perfection through the development of technology.