779 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

All that bluster and he posts his headcannon. Good grief!

I offered an alternate interpretation. It is as valid, if not moreso, than your own. Thus your idea, which is as much headcanon as mine, is not the only way to see things. Yours insists brainwashing, while mine follows a logical chain of reactions to the same eventual conclusion.
This game of yours has been a dull, repetitive exercise in frustration. And I'm done playing. Have a pleasent day.

[daaaav]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

All that bluster and he posts his headcannon. Good grief!

I offered an alternate interpretation. It is as valid, if not moreso, than your own. Thus your idea, which is as much headcanon as mine, is not the only way to see things. Yours insists brainwashing, while mine follows a logical chain of reactions to the same eventual conclusion.
This game of yours has been a dull, repetitive exercise in frustration. And I'm done playing. Have a pleasent day.

You may need to explain your first premise stating that the Reapers cease hostilities immediately after the beam. Why do they do this? Because everyone is now green? You maintain that synthesis does nothing to change the nature of folk without explaining why the cycle ends.



 

[Riot86]

Auintus wrote...

I never said anything about afterwards. Neither of us have enough data for that.

So...you're saying that once these great machines of death are pacified and helpful, everyone would try to attack them in revenge? Considering that they were getting seriouly whipped before the Synthesis wave? Do you have any idea how idiotic of an idea that would be? I'm not saying they'd be friends. Nobody is seen directly interacting with a Reaper, so their personal feeling are unknown. However, nobody is going to restart that war for the sake of revenge.

No evidence. You are extrapolating from their initial personality without taking into account vast changes in the situation. Normally not a bad idea, but I think I've addressed the issue.

I never said that "everyone" would try to attack the Reapers. But to assume that everyone would just accept the Reapers presence afterwards is naive. Some people are stupid, some are racist, some have violent tendencies and some just cannot accept being at the Reapers mercy who could still wipe out all organics if they decided to. And seeing your loved ones getting murdered and the perpetrator get away with it might make some of them do (as you called them) "idiotic "things. Which could in fact could very likely lead to a civil war between Anti-Reaper factions which are willing to die for their cause and the Reaper. But we don't see that. So, why is that?

What we get to see in the epilogue is that everybody seems to be fine and everything is peaceful. Which is completely unrealistic and contradicts the characterization we have gotten from the likes of Jack, Wreav, Javik, EDI, Hackett and the like. That is solid evidence that something has changed in the way those people are thinking.

...and yes that IS in-game evidence. We can only debate over the things that are in the game itself, not those that might happen afterwards. And just saying "no evidence" over and over again, doesn't change that and simply makes you look like someone who is unable to have a serious discussion once he is out of good arguments himself. If you'd like to headcanon the ending the way you like, that's perfectly fine. But headcanon is not any sort of evidence.

(I'm off to bed now, I'll answer tomorrow if you should respond)

Modifié par Riot86, 03 avril 2013 - 01:41 .

[Auintus]

daaaav wrote...

You may need to explain your first premise stating that the Reapers cease hostilities immediately after the beam. Why do they do this? Because everyone is now green? You maintain that synthesis does nothing to change the nature of folk without explaining why the cycle ends.

I assume the Reapers can tell. The wave is said to affect synthetics mentally and organics physically. Since the Reapers are a mix of both, I assume they have some way of knowing the importance of what has happened.

[daaaav]

Auintus wrote...

daaaav wrote...

You may need to explain your first premise stating that the Reapers cease hostilities immediately after the beam. Why do they do this? Because everyone is now green? You maintain that synthesis does nothing to change the nature of folk without explaining why the cycle ends.

I assume the Reapers can tell. The wave is said to affect synthetics mentally and organics physically. Since the Reapers are a mix of both, I assume they have some way of knowing the importance of what has happened.

The Reapers can tell what? What has happened? 

And now I'm really confused since you believe that the beam does affects organics physically. We are physical constructs so how can physical changes NOT affect our nature? Isn't that what the whole cyberpunk genre is about?

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Take that horseh*t headcannon of yours to fan creations Auintus - people are trying to discuss the game. Thanks in advance.

On second thought, you might be able to settle a bet here.

You: Everyone must be brainwashed because they stopped fighting. (No direct evidence, Assumption based on distrust of Synthesis/Catalyst/Crucible)
Me: The Reapers stopped fighting and organics followed suit due to confusion/not wanting to restart a losing battle. (No direct evidence, Assumption based on logical human behavior)

My theory is headcanon that should be taken to the fan creation forums while yours is indisputable fact that can be kept in a thread discussing various interpretations of the ending. Did I get that right?

[Auintus]

daaaav wrote...

The Reapers can tell what? What has happened? 

And now I'm really confused since you believe that the beam does affects organics physically. We are physical constructs so how can physical changes NOT affect our nature? Isn't that what the whole cyberpunk genre is about?

There is a fundamental physical difference in organic structure following Synthesis, yes? And there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought following Synthesis, right? The Reapers are some combination of the two. They would be affected by the wave and would be able to perceive that something important had changed. They may not even know what. Hell, maybe the Catalyst piggybacked a ceasefire signal on that wave, but I think my other theory holds more water.

Modifié par Auintus, 03 avril 2013 - 02:07 .

[Wayning_Star]

the synth wave is apparently the most powerful, as it requires the use of that massive central beam. The others are merely computer patches... after thoughts.

[Auld Wulf]

The anger continues to amaze me. Look at the people arguing with Auintus -- censor-dodging cussing, insults, and general nastiness. I pose the question again: What's wrong with some of you people? I'm surprised he has the patience to be as nice as he's being. :I

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The anger continues to amaze me. Look at the people arguing with Auintus -- censor-dodging cussing, insults, and general nastiness. I pose the question again: What's wrong with some of you people? I'm surprised he has the patience to be as nice as he's being. :I

peer review?

really it's just another part of the game Auld. Mostly wrought of boredom and orneriness.

edit: bioware was exceptionally careful to make the game so's that nobody could, verbatim, disprove one another's choice.

This OP is generally interesting, because of that bioware logo attached to the person involved with that decision. I've only found ONE response from that person in this thread. They didn't budge at all.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 03 avril 2013 - 02:20 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

Bull****...
It's ****ing deplorable...
David Gaider should be ashamed of himself...

It's the most evil ****ing thing I've seen in fiction...
My DNA is not your toy...

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

daaaav wrote...

The Reapers can tell what? What has happened? 

And now I'm really confused since you believe that the beam does affects organics physically. We are physical constructs so how can physical changes NOT affect our nature? Isn't that what the whole cyberpunk genre is about?

There is a fundamental physical difference in organic structure following Synthesis, yes? And there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought following Synthesis, right? The Reapers are some combination of the two. They would be affected by the wave and would be able to perceive that something important had changed. They may not even know what. Hell, maybe the Catalyst piggybacked a ceasefire signal on that wave, but I think my other theory holds more water.

Why do you accept that there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought process, but not in organic thought process? You further state that organic structure is fundamentally changed, but apperantly not for synthetics, even though the game itself shows even they have changed.

You've just shot yourself in the foot.

Modifié par Zavox, 03 avril 2013 - 02:20 .

[essarr71]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The anger continues to amaze me. Look at the people arguing with Auintus -- censor-dodging cussing, insults, and general nastiness. I pose the question again: What's wrong with some of you people? I'm surprised he has the patience to be as nice as he's being. :I

How did that "Destroyers are like Hitler" thread you made go?

[Wayning_Star]

What came first? The genetic code, or molecule?

[Wayning_Star]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Bull****...
It's ****ing deplorable...
David Gaider should be ashamed of himself...

It's the most evil ****ing thing I've seen in fiction...
My DNA is not your toy...

very serious..probably tooo serious..for a VG.

[Auintus]

Riot86 wrote...

I never said that "everyone" would try to attack the Reapers. But to assume that everyone would just accept the Reapers presence afterwards is naive. Some people are stupid, some are racist, some have violent tendencies and some just cannot accept being at the Reapers mercy who could still wipe out all organics if they decided to. And seeing your loved ones getting murdered and the perpetrator get away with it might make some of them do (as you called them) "idiotic "things. Which could in fact could very likely lead to a civil war between Anti-Reaper factions which are willing to die for their cause and the Reaper. But we don't see that. So, why is that?

What we get to see in the epilogue is that everybody seems to be fine and everything is peaceful. Which is completely unrealistic and contradicts the characterization we have gotten from the likes of Jack, Wreav, Javik, EDI, Hackett and the like. That is solid evidence that something has changed in the way those people are thinking.

...and yes that IS in-game evidence. We can only debate over the things that are in the game itself, not those that might happen afterwards. And just saying "no evidence" over and over again, doesn't change that and simply makes you look like someone who is unable to have a serious discussion once he is out of good arguments himself. If you'd like to headcanon the ending the way you like, that's perfectly fine. But headcanon is not any sort of evidence.

(I'm off to bed now, I'll answer tomorrow if you should respond)

Even if someone would willingly reignite a war that they almost lost, who would support them? Following WWI an appeasement policy was taken with Germany for fear of another war. Nobody wants conflict directly following conflict. And considering the incredible amount of damage a Reaper can sustain, how would a single individual, or even a small group of individuals, get ahold of these weapons and manage to strike at a Reaper with enough force to do more than ruffle its feathers? Maybe some people do try something, but it wouldn't be relevent. I just think that by the time the war would have faded enough that someone would be willing to consider something that drastic, it would have faded enough that their wouldn't be enough support for the idea.

I don't know much about Wreav. From what I could tell, he seemed more concerned with threatening war to make gains than actually starting a war. Again, I haven't played much when Wrex dies, so I'm not sure. Hackett seemed more concerned with ending the war than actually killing the Reapers. I know he says, "Dead Reapers are how we win this." but that was after the (definitely insane) Illusive Man suggested Control. Additionally, we knew nothing of the Reaper's motives. While I doubt anyone would call it acceptable, I also doubt that that would be used to reignite a war. Considering UNC: The Negotiation, I doubt that Hackett is very black-and-white. All and all, I don't think any individual could pull the amount of sway needed to reignite the Reaper war.

I don't think it's headcanon. Not anymore than any other "after the war" theory, anyway. There is no evidence that they would remain hostile in face of what they just survived, and if they did, they wouldn't survive it much longer. I like to think that my squadmates aren't that stupid.
Maybe to be sure, define headcanon for me?

[The Heretic of Time]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Bull****...
It's ****ing deplorable...
David Gaider should be ashamed of himself...

It's the most evil ****ing thing I've seen in fiction...
My DNA is not your toy...

very serious..probably tooo serious..for a VG.

So he's just bat-sh!t insane then? Okay, good to know.

[Wayning_Star]

essarr71 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

The anger continues to amaze me. Look at the people arguing with Auintus -- censor-dodging cussing, insults, and general nastiness. I pose the question again: What's wrong with some of you people? I'm surprised he has the patience to be as nice as he's being. :I

How did that "Destroyers are like Hitler" thread you made go?

two wrongs makes a right?

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

I never said that "everyone" would try to attack the Reapers. But to assume that everyone would just accept the Reapers presence afterwards is naive. Some people are stupid, some are racist, some have violent tendencies and some just cannot accept being at the Reapers mercy who could still wipe out all organics if they decided to. And seeing your loved ones getting murdered and the perpetrator get away with it might make some of them do (as you called them) "idiotic "things. Which could in fact could very likely lead to a civil war between Anti-Reaper factions which are willing to die for their cause and the Reaper. But we don't see that. So, why is that?

What we get to see in the epilogue is that everybody seems to be fine and everything is peaceful. Which is completely unrealistic and contradicts the characterization we have gotten from the likes of Jack, Wreav, Javik, EDI, Hackett and the like. That is solid evidence that something has changed in the way those people are thinking.

...and yes that IS in-game evidence. We can only debate over the things that are in the game itself, not those that might happen afterwards. And just saying "no evidence" over and over again, doesn't change that and simply makes you look like someone who is unable to have a serious discussion once he is out of good arguments himself. If you'd like to headcanon the ending the way you like, that's perfectly fine. But headcanon is not any sort of evidence.

(I'm off to bed now, I'll answer tomorrow if you should respond)

Even if someone would willingly reignite a war that they almost lost, who would support them? Following WWI an appeasement policy was taken with Germany for fear of another war. Nobody wants conflict directly following conflict. And considering the incredible amount of damage a Reaper can sustain, how would a single individual, or even a small group of individuals, get ahold of these weapons and manage to strike at a Reaper with enough force to do more than ruffle its feathers? Maybe some people do try something, but it wouldn't be relevent. I just think that by the time the war would have faded enough that someone would be willing to consider something that drastic, it would have faded enough that their wouldn't be enough support for the idea.

I don't know much about Wreav. From what I could tell, he seemed more concerned with threatening war to make gains than actually starting a war. Again, I haven't played much when Wrex dies, so I'm not sure. Hackett seemed more concerned with ending the war than actually killing the Reapers. I know he says, "Dead Reapers are how we win this." but that was after the (definitely insane) Illusive Man suggested Control. Additionally, we knew nothing of the Reaper's motives. While I doubt anyone would call it acceptable, I also doubt that that would be used to reignite a war. Considering UNC: The Negotiation, I doubt that Hackett is very black-and-white. All and all, I don't think any individual could pull the amount of sway needed to reignite the Reaper war.

I don't think it's headcanon. Not anymore than any other "after the war" theory, anyway. There is no evidence that they would remain hostile in face of what they just survived, and if they did, they wouldn't survive it much longer. I like to think that my squadmates aren't that stupid.
Maybe to be sure, define headcanon for me?

actually, it's not a war at all, it just seems like it.

[MegaSovereign]

Zavox wrote...

Auintus wrote...

daaaav wrote...

The Reapers can tell what? What has happened? 

And now I'm really confused since you believe that the beam does affects organics physically. We are physical constructs so how can physical changes NOT affect our nature? Isn't that what the whole cyberpunk genre is about?

There is a fundamental physical difference in organic structure following Synthesis, yes? And there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought following Synthesis, right? The Reapers are some combination of the two. They would be affected by the wave and would be able to perceive that something important had changed. They may not even know what. Hell, maybe the Catalyst piggybacked a ceasefire signal on that wave, but I think my other theory holds more water.

Why do you accept that there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought process, but not in organic thought process? You further state that organic structure is fundamentally changed, but apperantly not for synthetics, even though the game itself shows even they have changed.

You've just shot yourself in the foot.

The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

[dreamgazer]

Well, this thread certainly escalated.

[Wayning_Star]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Take that horseh*t headcannon of yours to fan creations Auintus - people are trying to discuss the game. Thanks in advance.

On second thought, you might be able to settle a bet here.

You: Everyone must be brainwashed because they stopped fighting. (No direct evidence, Assumption based on distrust of Synthesis/Catalyst/Crucible)
Me: The Reapers stopped fighting and organics followed suit due to confusion/not wanting to restart a losing battle. (No direct evidence, Assumption based on logical human behavior)

My theory is headcanon that should be taken to the fan creation forums while yours is indisputable fact that can be kept in a thread discussing various interpretations of the ending. Did I get that right?

It’s even more straightforward than that. The synthesis ending (you really should watch it) literally shows us that the strange green light prompts an immediate end to hostilities right? That being the case, we have evidence enough to at least claim that synthesis is able to ‘modify’ the behaviour of organics and synthetics right? You claimed that no such evidence exists. Now, if you would be so kind as to retract that ridiculous statement and take your brilliantly creative fan fic to the correct board….

they decided to quit? Because the green beam informed them of other things to do. Reprogrammed them, the reaperships are just ships. The catalyst is their prime mover. They actually stop aggression the second Shepard jumps into the green beam and the catalyst is removed from service. They are 'unplugged'.

Just like in destroy or control, the reaperships either fall over, deactivated, or follow another, as shepard assumes direct control. The given beam merely illustrates the effect. It seems like minutes, but actually, in real time, could of taken hours/day/months for the effects to fully be realized. A cut scene can only go so far as to 'direct' as to be completely instructive to the viewer.