779 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

Zavox wrote...

Why do you accept that there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought process, but not in organic thought process? You further state that organic structure is fundamentally changed, but apperantly not for synthetics, even though the game itself shows even they have changed.

You've just shot yourself in the foot.

Synthesis is described, by the Catalyst (the only one who knows what the hell is going on at this point), as correcting the issues that bring about the conflict: organics using technology to improve their lives and synthetics attempting to understand organics. Synthesis solves both by modifying organic biological matrix and (somehow) helping synthetics to understand organics.

I am going to try to be a clear as I can, so if it looks like I'm treating you like an idiot, it is intentional, but not meant to be insulting.
Organics are modified physically. This would naturally affect their neurons and thus how they think. I understand this as different than what they think. The "how," in this statement, is in regards to the physical process of thought, not the thoughts themselves. Everyone remains unique and behaves as they do in Control and, for the most part, Destroy. So while I don't believe their personalities or reasoning are different, I will concede that it was wrong of me to say that organics were unaffected mentally.
Synthetics may have been affected physically, but considering their physical forms are superior to our own, that would serve little purpose. The more important change would be on a mental level, where they are able to understand(no one ever said "experience") what it means to be organic.

That's the best I can do, I think.

[ToaOrka]

The very premise behind Synthesis defies
all science and explanation, and Control seems
too easy to be anything more than a Reaper
trap. The fact that the Catalyst tries so hard to
steer you away from Destroy makes it, to me,
the most logical choice. People's choices don't
affect the conclusions that I arrive to unless those
choices are based on logic more accurate than
my own, and even then, in a matter as opinionated
as this, that doesn't necessarily matter either.

[CosmicGnosis]

MegaSovereign wrote...


The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

Yes, I agree. I suspect that Wreav loses support after Synthesis is implemented because the krogan situation begins to improve.

[Wayning_Star]

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, this thread certainly escalated.

fans are shaking the inferences with white knuckled WTF just happened revelation?

I think it is strange that so many 'complicate' the story with 'another' final battle for canon ending to ME3.

The destroy folks, some go after synthesis folks just after the reaperships.. amazing really.

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...


The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

Yes, I agree. I suspect that Wreav loses support after Synthesis is implemented because the krogan situation begins to improve.

Eve would kick him hard anyways..so it's as short as it is long..imo

[CronoDragoon]

Synthesis has pros and cons like every ending. It just happens to have pros that are really weird and kind of boring to me based on how I felt about my Mass Effect journey. Plus. the glow thing is just super creepy.

[Wayning_Star]

ToaOrka wrote...

The very premise behind Synthesis defies
all science and explanation, and Control seems
too easy to be anything more than a Reaper
trap. The fact that the Catalyst tries so hard to
steer you away from Destroy makes it, to me,
the most logical choice. People's choices don't
affect the conclusions that I arrive to unless those
choices are based on logic more accurate than
my own, and even then, in a matter as opinionated
as this, that doesn't necessarily matter either.

I never get that catalyst leading anywhere myself. It seemed disconnected unless you refuse..then it gets all 'funny' on you?

[Zavox]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

If it were just a societal change, why would they instantly stop fighting? For as far as I know the game never implies the changes differ from organic to synthetic, both get changed to form a new 'dna', both get green eyes, thus it also stands to reason that both get changed in their thought process, atleast if you acknowledge that that happens to synthetics.

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Why do you accept that there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought process, but not in organic thought process? You further state that organic structure is fundamentally changed, but apperantly not for synthetics, even though the game itself shows even they have changed.

You've just shot yourself in the foot.

Synthesis is described, by the Catalyst (the only one who knows what the hell is going on at this point), as correcting the issues that bring about the conflict: organics using technology to improve their lives and synthetics attempting to understand organics. Synthesis solves both by modifying organic biological matrix and (somehow) helping synthetics to understand organics.

I am going to try to be a clear as I can, so if it looks like I'm treating you like an idiot, it is intentional, but not meant to be insulting.
Organics are modified physically. This would naturally affect their neurons and thus how they think. I understand this as different than what they think. The "how," in this statement, is in regards to the physical process of thought, not the thoughts themselves. Everyone remains unique and behaves as they do in Control and, for the most part, Destroy. So while I don't believe their personalities or reasoning are different, I will concede that it was wrong of me to say that organics were unaffected mentally.
Synthetics may have been affected physically, but considering their physical forms are superior to our own, that would serve little purpose. The more important change would be on a mental level, where they are able to understand(no one ever said "experience") what it means to be organic.

That's the best I can do, I think.

Well, welcome to our side then. Glad you joined. Now that that is settled, we may just only differ on the amount that may have changed organics, which we may never know for certain.

Also, I don't understand why you had to be condescending as that was a perfectly reasonable extrapolation of your thoughts, which you hadn't done before. I'm therefore dubious as to who is the supposed idiot in this case.

Modifié par Zavox, 03 avril 2013 - 02:52 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

From the catalyst's description of synthesis, it sounds like vitalism. Mystic crap.

Life energy? Essence of who you are? Come on.

Final evolution of all life? That's even worse!

Synthesis is space magic.


http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 avril 2013 - 02:50 .

[Eckswhyzed]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

they decided to quit? Because the green beam informed them of other things to do. Reprogrammed them, the reaperships are just ships. The catalyst is their prime mover. They actually stop aggression the second Shepard jumps into the green beam and the catalyst is removed from service. They are 'unplugged'.

Just like in destroy or control, the reaperships either fall over, deactivated, or follow another, as shepard assumes direct control. The given beam merely illustrates the effect. It seems like minutes, but actually, in real time, could of taken hours/day/months for the effects to fully be realized. A cut scene can only go so far as to 'direct' as to be completely instructive to the viewer.

Sorry man, I refuse to accept or indorse random BSN head cannon over and above what the game is actually showing me (and its showing me something very  different).

Well, I guess someone hasn't watched the Synthesis EC.

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Why do you accept that there is a fundamental change in synthetic thought process, but not in organic thought process? You further state that organic structure is fundamentally changed, but apperantly not for synthetics, even though the game itself shows even they have changed.

You've just shot yourself in the foot.

Synthesis is described, by the Catalyst (the only one who knows what the hell is going on at this point), as correcting the issues that bring about the conflict: organics using technology to improve their lives and synthetics attempting to understand organics. Synthesis solves both by modifying organic biological matrix and (somehow) helping synthetics to understand organics.

I am going to try to be a clear as I can, so if it looks like I'm treating you like an idiot, it is intentional, but not meant to be insulting.
Organics are modified physically. This would naturally affect their neurons and thus how they think. I understand this as different than what they think. The "how," in this statement, is in regards to the physical process of thought, not the thoughts themselves. Everyone remains unique and behaves as they do in Control and, for the most part, Destroy. So while I don't believe their personalities or reasoning are different, I will concede that it was wrong of me to say that organics were unaffected mentally.
Synthetics may have been affected physically, but considering their physical forms are superior to our own, that would serve little purpose. The more important change would be on a mental level, where they are able to understand(no one ever said "experience") what it means to be organic.

That's the best I can do, I think.

don't forget the time shift on the sub molecular level. Alter matter on that level you end up going through time to some extent. Have to, to shift the quantum physics. The reaperships and catalyst are quantum computer controlled, their 'essence' as it were, is on a different level, very alien. Traditional matter, such as organic cells and nervous systems are like comparing brain cells to the interconnection of mass and velocity of several parsecs of, say the milky way affecting the spin of Earths moon.

Makes it hard to imagine why the catalyst would be concerned about organics as it is, much less their survival, or even health issues.

[MegaSovereign]

Zavox wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

If it were just a societal change, why would they instantly stop fighting? For as far as I know the game never implies the changes differ from organic to synthetic, both get changed to form a new 'dna', both get green eyes, thus it also stands to reason that both get changed in their thought process, atleast if you acknowledge that that happens to synthetics.

The epilogues are supposed to span hundreds of years according to Bioware. In the first couple slides of Synthesis, you see the Krogan as you would in Destroy/Control if you have Wreav. It may not be as instantaneous as you describe.

[Wayning_Star]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

they decided to quit? Because the green beam informed them of other things to do. Reprogrammed them, the reaperships are just ships. The catalyst is their prime mover. They actually stop aggression the second Shepard jumps into the green beam and the catalyst is removed from service. They are 'unplugged'.

Just like in destroy or control, the reaperships either fall over, deactivated, or follow another, as shepard assumes direct control. The given beam merely illustrates the effect. It seems like minutes, but actually, in real time, could of taken hours/day/months for the effects to fully be realized. A cut scene can only go so far as to 'direct' as to be completely instructive to the viewer.

Sorry man, I refuse to accept or indorse random BSN head cannon over and above what the game is actually showing me (and its showing me something very  different).

and so? Your head canon is not? Read the post again, just to be sure, before becoming so defensive?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 03 avril 2013 - 02:58 .

[Zavox]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Zavox wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

If it were just a societal change, why would they instantly stop fighting? For as far as I know the game never implies the changes differ from organic to synthetic, both get changed to form a new 'dna', both get green eyes, thus it also stands to reason that both get changed in their thought process, atleast if you acknowledge that that happens to synthetics.

The epilogues are supposed to span hundreds of years according to Bioware. In the first couple slides of Synthesis, you see the Krogan as you would in Destroy/Control if you have Wreav. It may not be as instantaneous as you describe.

I'm referring to the instantaneous change that happens before the EC slides even come up. It stands to reason the same happened on Tuchanka.

[ruggly]

Everyone agreeing on synthesis being the best is about as likely as this chameleon being able to grab this water. Never.

[Auintus]

Fandango9641 wrote...

It’s even more straightforward than that. The synthesis ending (you really should watch it) literally shows us that the strange green light prompts an immediate end to hostilities right? That being the case, we have evidence enough to at least claim that synthesis is able to ‘modify’ the behaviour of organics and synthetics right? You claimed that no such evidence exists. Now, if you would be so kind as to retract that ridiculous statement and take your brilliantly creative fan fic to the correct board….

You watch it. See the faces? The body language? It's "what the hell?" not "We're buddies with the Reapers!"
Wave scene: Troopers in cover, Reaper lands, charges, stops. Wave hits. Troopers peek out of cover, and only step out when the Reapers begin to leave.
Husk scene: After the wave, trooper backs away from husk until he realizes that it's more worried about something else. Turns around, surprised to see the Reapers leaving.
Turian scene: Turians in cover, Wave hits, turians clearly perceive some sort of change. Turians stay in cover until Reapers begin to leave.
Also note that every time, the species in question perceives and wonders at their biological changes. If they were brainwashed to accept peace with the Reapers, wouldn't acceptance of the upgrades come with that?

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go cry. I've lost all faith in humanity and fifty bucks along with it.

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

Everyone agreeing on synthesis being the best is about as likely as this chameleon being able to grab this water. Never.

it grabs it, one tiny drop at a time? lol

(of course most posters expect Tarzan action tho..)

edit: major Kudos on those Sloth photos.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 03 avril 2013 - 03:00 .

[ruggly]

Wayning_Star wrote...
it grabs it, one tiny drop at a time? lol

(of course most posters expect Tarzan action tho..)

I don't have any Tarzan at the moment, but there is this

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

don't forget the time shift on the sub molecular level. Alter matter on that level you end up going through time to some extent. Have to, to shift the quantum physics. The reaperships and catalyst are quantum computer controlled, their 'essence' as it were, is on a different level, very alien. Traditional matter, such as organic cells and nervous systems are like comparing brain cells to the interconnection of mass and velocity of several parsecs of, say the milky way affecting the spin of Earths moon.

Makes it hard to imagine why the catalyst would be concerned about organics as it is, much less their survival, or even health issues.

Hell no, I'm not getting into the amount and control of energy you'd need to bring about that kind of change with no one so much as falling unconscious. Not worth the headache. I'm in genetics, not physics.

I think the Catalyst only cares because it was programmed to. For all its bluster, it's still a machine.

[Zavox]

Auintus wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

It’s even more straightforward than that. The synthesis ending (you really should watch it) literally shows us that the strange green light prompts an immediate end to hostilities right? That being the case, we have evidence enough to at least claim that synthesis is able to ‘modify’ the behaviour of organics and synthetics right? You claimed that no such evidence exists. Now, if you would be so kind as to retract that ridiculous statement and take your brilliantly creative fan fic to the correct board….

You watch it. See the faces? The body language? It's "what the hell?" not "We're buddies with the Reapers!"
Wave scene: Troopers in cover, Reaper lands, charges, stops. Wave hits. Troopers peek out of cover, and only step out when the Reapers begin to leave.
Husk scene: After the wave, trooper backs away from husk until he realizes that it's more worried about something else. Turns around, surprised to see the Reapers leaving.
Turian scene: Turians in cover, Wave hits, turians clearly perceive some sort of change. Turians stay in cover until Reapers begin to leave.
Also note that every time, the species in question perceives and wonders at their biological changes. If they were brainwashed to accept peace with the Reapers, wouldn't acceptance of the upgrades come with that?

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go cry. I've lost all faith in humanity and fifty bucks along with it.

Agreed, but for opposite reasons.

[MegaSovereign]

Zavox wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Zavox wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst's vague description of Synthesis mentions that organics gain integration with technology, while synthetics get the "full understanding" of organic life. Based on what the game presents, I doubt organics are being brainwashed.

How I interpret the Wreav thing is that the Krogan decided to abandon their barbaric tradition of constant war. I think it's an indirect change of societal perception introduced through integration with technology rather than an invasive brainwash.

Oh and before anyone gets cute, no I'm not a champion of Synthesis. You won't get a reply out of me if you're condescending.

If it were just a societal change, why would they instantly stop fighting? For as far as I know the game never implies the changes differ from organic to synthetic, both get changed to form a new 'dna', both get green eyes, thus it also stands to reason that both get changed in their thought process, atleast if you acknowledge that that happens to synthetics.

The epilogues are supposed to span hundreds of years according to Bioware. In the first couple slides of Synthesis, you see the Krogan as you would in Destroy/Control if you have Wreav. It may not be as instantaneous as you describe.

I'm referring to the instantaneous change that happens before the EC slides even come up. It stands to reason the same happened on Tuchanka.

What? You mean when they initially get hit with the Green beam?

[Cobalt2113]

ruggly wrote...

Everyone agreeing on synthesis being the best is about as likely as this chameleon being able to grab this water. Never.

But... it is grabbing the water. it has water on its hands....