323 réponses à ce sujet

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

[Seival]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.

So you are stating that there will be no more conflict, that life is stagnate.  Let's say that  life gets to a point where we are all software in a server, there is no contact with the physical world (ideal Synthesis).  This so called "final point of evolution", the Geth were near this point, but they were always looking to find a better sever that allowed them to understand more.  We would be at the same point, we need more, more everything in order to grow.  Try to think of the best computer possible, you can't because there is no such thing, there can always be a better one; faster, smarter, stronger all it needs is time and space, it is only natural.  Much like trying to name the largest number, you'd say  1,000,000 and I'd reply 1,000,001, even though how insignificant it may seem, there is always
a small improvement to make.

If we don't grow, than we are not alive, we are a dead species at that point; what would we do?  Educate children?  we can't have children that would be growing and evolving.  Go to work? to do what, get more money, that would be growing.  We would simply be existing, not more. 

Not at all.

Actually, I stated that once evolution reached its limits evolved creatures became able to overcome any obstacle life can possibly raise on their way. That doesn't mean there will be no conflicts or obstacles. That means evolved creatures will be ready to any possible conflicts and obstacles as if they already had proper experience in the past. Conflicts and obstacles will just repeat themselves while the cycled path of life moves on.

...And you have very strange idea of "ideal Synthesis". Synthesis doesn't remove your connection to the real world. Synthesis is not a delusion like "Matrix".

I am starting to think we have different definitions of evolution.   When I think of evolution, I  think of a civilization or species adapting in any way in order to survive and thrive in an environment.  So to me we are never fully evolved because things can always get better (like a logarithmic graph, with an asymptote at 1; we can never be perfect and reach one but we can get really close to it like 0.999999999999999 and still get better because it continues forever).  

I believe to you evolution is a more drastic change, where we do not need to become entire new life forms in-order to adapt to new environments, synthetics do it for us.  In my mind that is still evolution, indeed a very small one (a 0.000000000000001) but it is still a change and an evolution, no matter how minute.

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

Modifié par Seival, 04 avril 2013 - 08:12 .

[Applepie_Svk]

DinoSteve wrote...

-snip-

....to the staaaaaaaaaaaars....

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.[/quote]
Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

[/quote]

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.[/quote]
So you are stating that there will be no more conflict, that life is stagnate.  Let's say that  life gets to a point where we are all software in a server, there is no contact with the physical world (ideal Synthesis).  This so called "final point of evolution", the Geth were near this point, but they were always looking to find a better sever that allowed them to understand more.  We would be at the same point, we need more, more everything in order to grow.  Try to think of the best computer possible, you can't because there is no such thing, there can always be a better one; faster, smarter, stronger all it needs is time and space, it is only natural.  Much like trying to name the largest number, you'd say  1,000,000 and I'd reply 1,000,001, even though how insignificant it may seem, there is always
a small improvement to make.

If we don't grow, than we are not alive, we are a dead species at that point; what would we do?  Educate children?  we can't have children that would be growing and evolving.  Go to work? to do what, get more money, that would be growing.  We would simply be existing, not more. 


[/quote]

Not at all.

Actually, I stated that once evolution reached its limits evolved creatures became able to overcome any obstacle life can possibly raise on their way. That doesn't mean there will be no conflicts or obstacles. That means evolved creatures will be ready to any possible conflicts and obstacles as if they already had proper experience in the past. Conflicts and obstacles will just repeat themselves while the cycled path of life moves on.

...And you have very strange idea of "ideal Synthesis". Synthesis doesn't remove your connection to the real world. Synthesis is not a delusion like "Matrix".[/quote]
I am starting to think we have different definitions of evolution.   When I think of evolution, I  think of a civilization or species adapting in any way in order to survive and thrive in an environment.  So to me we are never fully evolved because things can always get better (like a logarithmic graph, with an asymptote at 1; we can never be perfect and reach one but we can get really close to it like 0.999999999999999 and still get better because it continues forever).  

I believe to you evolution is a more drastic change, where we do not need to become entire new life forms in-order to adapt to new environments, synthetics do it for us.  In my mind that is still evolution, indeed a very small one (a 0.000000000000001) but it is still a change and an evolution, no matter how minute.[/quote]

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.[/quote]

space, inner and outer are, for all practical purposes, infinite. (see:Infinite space  then qualify the term: Universe )

My only grief with synthesis being 'final' is that it only incorporates synthetic bonding with organics of nature. Actually, I don't take it as evolution at all, other than organics, seemingly natural, impulse to create (as well as destroy).

edit: apparently nature has a bad habit of destroy, mostly beyond current knowledge, even theory, on the conceptual inferences of a Black hole . The math there goes off the scale, as gravity upends, or appends given states.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 04 avril 2013 - 09:07 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

Well no, you think evolution is limited because you have no idea what evolution really is or how it works, or what Synthesis is or how it works, so you're just saying things to make Synthesis appear grand and complicated, and things which you think might sound vaguely insightful with enough nonsense jargon. 

Yes, evolution is limitless, that's how it works. No, Synthesis does not stop evolution, that would kill off most forms of life in the galaxy eventually, and no, evolution does not have a 'peak', it's not progressive. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 avril 2013 - 10:39 .

[bukkfizzman]

Everyone 

Modifié par bukkfizzman, 04 avril 2013 - 10:52 .

[Darth Malice113]

OP clearly doesn't understand the concept of evolution.

Final evolution is nonsense.

[Bill Casey]

The Reapers said they are the pinnacle of evolution...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 avril 2013 - 11:08 .

[bukkfizzman]

Seival wrote...

...Yes, this is that simple.

While the process isn't over yet, evolution demands changes. Evolution demands saying farewell to old ways.

If you don't wanna be changed, if you don't wanna change others, if you don't have desire to shape the world around you, then you are dead-end and will become extinct eventually. And the ones who always look forward, who's mind is opened to changes and innovations - will prevail.

This is the way the universe works.

 Synthesis is not the final evolution and control is just dictotorship... Infact us as a fanbase have been over this many times.

Modifié par bukkfizzman, 04 avril 2013 - 11:22 .

[CSRB]

I think we all know that the OP has a tendency to bull****. I say leave him be, don't encourage him.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers said they are the pinnacle of evolution...

But we they are!


After all you we puny organics are nothing compared to their perfection, Seival is the only organic who understands our their majesty!

We They are our genetic destiny!

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 05 avril 2013 - 12:05 .

[Reorte]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
n. 

Yes, evolution is limitless, that's how it works. No, Synthesis does not stop evolution, that would kill off most forms of life in the galaxy eventually,

Who's to say that isn't what it does? It's possible (as much as I hate to use that word for such a ridiculous concept) that whatever it's doing to DNA prevents mutation and therefore indeed is the end of evolution, the final form of life. Which will, as you say, ultimately result in everything becoming extinct. Now I seriously doubt that that's what was meant when it was written but that's the danger of writing stuff you don't understand, people who know more will realise just how horrific the consequences are.

[PwrdOff]

But log is an unbounded function....

[Red Panda]

CSRB wrote...

I think we all know that the OP has a tendency to bull****. I say leave him be, don't encourage him.

The OP's argument is sound in my opinion. Seival's one of the best promoters of discussion.

[Makaveli The Don]

Seival wrote...

...Yes, this is that simple.

While the process isn't over yet, evolution demands changes. Evolution demands saying farewell to old ways.

If you don't wanna be changed, if you don't wanna change others, if you don't have desire to shape the world around you, then you are dead-end and will become extinct eventually. And the ones who always look forward, who's mind is opened to changes and innovations - will prevail.

This is the way the universe works.

[Vigilant111]

Seival wrote...
We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

You don't know what you are talking about, seriously. On the path of evolution, species die out, there might come a more adapted species after the previous one dies, or, a species simply becoming extinct when it could no longer adapt and change quick enough to survive... and it is not a looped path because everything is constantly changing, except this change is slow and the extent of change is small

[Boneyaards]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Seival wrote...
We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

You don't know what you are talking about, seriously. On the path of evolution, species die out, there might come a more adapted species after the previous one dies, or, a species simply becoming extinct when it could no longer adapt and change quick enough to survive... and it is not a looped path because everything is constantly changing, except this change is slow and the extent of change is small

OP isn't stating that evolution is a looped path (you should probably read his/her comment again) OP is implying that in her/his perspective, evolution should theoretically have a limit because even things in our universe that seem limitless (like a looped path) do indeed have limits. It's all based on perspective. In my opinion, I believe it is limitless as well, but who are we to say that we are absolutely right? If evolution has an end, you and I certainly will not see it. 

However, I believe that we as humans will create an artificial end to evolution. We will create subjective steps that help us determine how far we are along the path of evolution. So, maybe in millions of years to come humans will have:

> Transcended the aging process and therefore "natural death"
> Colonize space
> Terraform other planets
> Oversee the evolution of rudimentary species
> Transcend the need to reproduce (dependent on factors like overpopulation, but I disgress)

Maybe it is at this time, where we as humans, will believe that we have reached the end.

[Indy_S]

This is still an entertaining thread. One question that hasn't been answered is: How is Control one step before Synthesis? I'm not seeing it, even in all its apparent simplicity.

[jacob taylor416]

Seival wrote...


We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

You even sated it yourself or you agreed with someone who said it, (*example not actual post*) that a living being that breathes oxygen and cyanide is completely poisonous to it, and you place him on a planet that has cyanide as a fundamental part of its atmosphere than he/she needs to adapt to cyanide, whether it is nature or synthetics that is evolution. And whether it's synthetics or natural their lungs will disappear (much like our appendix)  because it is a waste of energy and resources. In terms of an energy source, it is impossible to reach 100%(see last paragraph excluding the edit) but does that mean we, or nature, will stop at 90%, NO! In no area of history have there ever been examples of that.  Evolution is not a progress to a simple point, rather a forever changing system trying to achive an equalibrium with its everchanging environment (the universe).

Going back to the person on the cyanide planet, if you tera-form it and restrain a species from evolving that is not the final form of evolution you're simply trying to kill a puppy because you think that it is cutest as a puppy.   If you truly believe that there is a perfect form of life, a "final stage of evolution" than I am both sympathetic and envious of your innocence and ignorance.  Also may I read your examples. 

I am fairly sure that you would argue that it is possible for a 100% efficiency, than here is a paragraph dedicated to disproving that (don't you feel special paragraph).  For every conversion of energy there is a dispersion of heat and entropy, stated by the first two laws of thermal dynamics, a perpetual motion machine is impossible for this same reason.  Every system releases heat or, unusable energy, in the form of entropy, stated in the first law of thermal dynamics.  A system will always require energy in order to change it into a usable form of energy, shown in this equation  G=H-TS where the amount of usable energy (G) is the amount of total energy (H) minus the temperature give off in Kelvin (T) times the amount of entropy given off (S), therefore the only completely efficient system is at 0 degrees Kelvin, which not only does not exist in nature but at which point nothing happens and nothing can. With that said, the second law of thermal dynamics states that a system not already at a thermal equilibrium (death) spontaneously evolves toward it, and therefore it will naturally try to achieve 100% efficiency even though it is only possible at nonexistence.   What you call the "final state of evolution" is the thermodynamic equilibrium which only exists at nonexistence.   

Edit: Wayning_Star could you state your opinion in a new post, because I can't tell where mine and Seival's posts ends and your response begins.

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 05 avril 2013 - 05:42 .

[Bill Casey]

Indy_S wrote...

This is still an entertaining thread. One question that hasn't been answered is: How is Control one step before Synthesis? I'm not seeing it, even in all its apparent simplicity.

You don't know?
Seival wants to use Control of the Reapers to perform Synthesis experiments on a smaller scale. That way, he can experiment on people without risking the entire galaxy. People who didn't want to be synthesized would be moved into camps away from the experiments...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 05 avril 2013 - 04:57 .

[jacob taylor416]

BNN999 wrote...

But log is an unbounded function....

It's mainly about what happens as you approach the asymptote, you can get infinitely closer to it without touching it.

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 05 avril 2013 - 05:54 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Seival wrote...

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

No, see, you consider evolution to be progress toward an end goal, when it's really the preservation of diverse patterns of life which were created in response to environmental stimuli and then weren't destroyed or rendered unable to reproduce by other environmental stimuli. You believe that there is a "final evolution" other than death or infertility because you are wrong. A species which has ceased to change in response to its habitat is either extinct, or on the path toward extinction, because the habitat itself, and the resources provided by that environment, and the species competing for those resources will still be changing.

In machine terms, settling on a "final evolution" is like running Windows 95 on a 486 with a Pentium CPU and 4 megabytes of RAM because that was the top-of-the-line business workstation in 1995. People who are aware of Windows 7, Sata 3, multicore processors with fast FSBs, DDR3 and Gigabit ethernet will be computing circles around that thing. It would be merciful to retire it.

That's not to say that a contemporary computer uses objectively better technology than what was available, in every possible sense. Processors are built on a smaller scale, and run cooler for a given level of performance. RAM is faster and comes in higher capacities. NICs communicate faster. But a number of technologies were created which at the point they were created were faster, produced less heat build-up, offered denser storage capacity, or any other metric which might be considered better...in one particular way, which was not prioritized by the marketplace. Those technologies were not competitive and were weeded out by those which were bought in greater numbers, which kept the manufacturers in business.

[Asuukuru]

Seival wrote...

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

Actually no, it really just shows you dont have a strong grasp on the concepts of evolution, you are quite simply wrong. Evolution is a response to outside stresses/ stimuli, since the universe is never constant, always changing, so much evolution constinuously change. The only way to stop evolution is through extinction. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Seival wrote...

We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

Please, for the love of science, go learn biology 101. Your bullcrap doesn't make any sense and it's completely wrong.

[PainCakesx]

This has probably already been said, but I'll repeat it if so.

There is no such thing as a "final evolution." Evolution isn't about reaching a final destination, but about adapting to environments to aid in the survival of a species.

There is no end goal to evolution - therefore the statement that "Synthesis is the final evolution of life" is nonsensical.