323 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Obadiah wrote...

Well, if the Crucible was designed to work with the Catalyst AI, then obviously the designers or re-designers knew of the existence of the Catalyst AI.

Except they didn't, the Catalyst is refered to as the Citadel, the station/central relay not some AI no one's even mentioned at that point.

[Kitaen]

I only have one comment, and Optimus Prime said it best:

"...Until all are One..."

[Obadiah]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Well, if the Crucible was designed to work with the Catalyst AI, then obviously the designers or re-designers knew of the existence of the Catalyst AI.

Except they didn't, the Catalyst is refered to as the Citadel, the station/central relay not some AI no one's even mentioned at that point.

No, the Protheans didn't know what the Catalyst was, Vendetta thought the Catalyst was the Citadel. The designers of the Crucible may in fact have known about the Catalyst AI.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Obadiah wrote...
No, the Protheans didn't know what the Catalyst was, Vendetta thought the Catalyst was the Citadel. The designers of the Crucible may in fact have known about the Catalyst AI.

Considering everything else that was passed down about the Crucible one would think they'd pass down that little tidbit as well considering it won't fire at all without the kid's go ahead. Shepard is the first organic to reach him, he tells you as much.

[Obadiah]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
No, the Protheans didn't know what the Catalyst was, Vendetta thought the Catalyst was the Citadel. The designers of the Crucible may in fact have known about the Catalyst AI.

Considering everything else that was passed down about the Crucible one would think they'd pass down that little tidbit as well considering it won't fire at all without the kid's go ahead. Shepard is the first organic to reach him, he tells you as much.

Well, that deduction may have convinced some, but I see no reason to discount the idea that the Protheans got partial plans, or the plans were intentionally obscured. It is entirely possible that the plans the Protheans got showed the Catalyst within the Citadel, and they thought the two were the same, when in fact the designers knew otherwise.

[GreyLycanTrope]

It's crucial information about the Crucible's design, if synthesis was indeed part of the intended design they're neglecting to tell anyone that someone needs to jump into the beam, making the entire plan useless since the device won't fire otherwise.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 avril 2013 - 12:10 .

[Postman778]

Seival wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

not to mention "final evolution" makes no sense, evolution does not work that way, and is not as conformed and generalized as synthesis, as said above, evolution is natural, synthesis is anything but.

"Natural" and "unnatural" are just subjective terms. They only show someone's attitude towards something.

If a doctor takes of someones arms and legs and attach them on someone elses torso to call that one the next step of evolution, is that really evolution?

[Obadiah]

- Protheans think the Catalyst is the Citadel.
- Catalyst AI calls itself the Catalyst and says the Citadel is part of it.

One explanation is that the Protheans got the "Catalyst" wrong and the Crucible was built to use the Catalyst AI. What's the other explanation for the discrepancy?

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 avril 2013 - 12:36 .

[Yestare7]

Jadebaby wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

This has probably already been said, but I'll repeat it if so.

There is no such thing as a "final evolution." Evolution isn't about reaching a final destination, but about adapting to environments to aid in the survival of a species.

There is no end goal to evolution - therefore the statement that "Synthesis is the final evolution of life" is nonsensical.

Picasso's art was nonsense too, and look at him...

LMAO!!   Because a few critics like the Nonsense, does not matter. It's STILL nonsense.

Picasso  hahahahaha:lol::lol:

Modifié par Yestare7, 06 avril 2013 - 12:44 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Obadiah wrote...

- Protheans think the Catalyst is the Citadel.
- Catalyst AI calls itself the Catalyst and says the Citadel is part of it.

One explanation is that the Protheans got the "Catalyst" wrong and the Crucible was built to use the Catalyst AI. What's the other explanation for the discrepancy?

The Catalyst uses the Crucible to modify the Citadel towards his own end.  We know this is possible because of the following:
- We've seen that the Citadel is about to reconfigure itself before the Crucible is even docked (when Shepard and Anderson enter via the conduit)
- The Catalyst says he's tried solutions similar to synthesis in the past but couldn't get them to work. He also says the Crucible is adaptive in it's design, hence we can surmise that he's adapted it to create synthesis as a solution to the problem he's been trying to solve
- We see that the Catalyst is capable of shutting down the Crucible entirely in the Refuse option, further showing that he has control over the device.

The alternate explination relies on too much happenstance to be feastable, ie someone being in the Citadel chamber to jump into the beam, the Crucible being able to rewrite an AI who's design is unknown to the creators of the Crucible, (even if they knew about his existance there's no way they knew his construct), a race technologically less sophisticated than the Reapers designing a technology which surpasses their own tech effectivly does exactly what the Reapers wanted etc.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 avril 2013 - 02:46 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

wow this ridiculous thread is still going

[SkullStrife]

wrong, evolution is not lineal, nor is history... there is not a lineal path for every civilization... The Roman Empire developed science and then Europe had centuries of dark age...repression of sciene, crusades, feudal system,... totally different to the slavery in Rome.. yer probably renaissance would have happened if not for the dark age...

America was developing in a different way with different kinds of religion until the europeans came and slaughtered all the civilizations there

History could be different, technology,knowledge could have been developed differently, culture too... Antropology has already studied that and came to this conclusion....

if in ME3 it was more lineal , it was because the reapers were there creating paths for all of the races and providing their technology... as Legion said in ME2 (he was much better written in ME2 than ME3...) they were fighting for the right of creating their own future (that´s why he agrees with my Shepard when I destroyed the collector base... then suddenly in ME3 he takes the reaper code...) .... there is no such thing as "final evolution of life" there are many paths and many possible destinations for evolution... that´s one more of the many reasons why the catalyst is WRONG... accepting that there is only ONE evolution of life is accepting the colonization, the vision of the conquerors over the conquered, domination... that´s why control is wrong and so is synthesis

[Ice Cold J]

 ...but, since Shepard is not God, it's not his/her call to make.

Don't pick Synthesis for that reason.

[Wayning_Star]

SkullStrife wrote...

wrong, evolution is not lineal, nor is history... there is not a lineal path for every civilization... The Roman Empire developed science and then Europe had centuries of dark age...repression of sciene, crusades, feudal system,... totally different to the slavery in Rome.. yer probably renaissance would have happened if not for the dark age...

America was developing in a different way with different kinds of religion until the europeans came and slaughtered all the civilizations there

History could be different, technology,knowledge could have been developed differently, culture too... Antropology has already studied that and came to this conclusion....

if in ME3 it was more lineal , it was because the reapers were there creating paths for all of the races and providing their technology... as Legion said in ME2 (he was much better written in ME2 than ME3...) they were fighting for the right of creating their own future (that´s why he agrees with my Shepard when I destroyed the collector base... then suddenly in ME3 he takes the reaper code...) .... there is no such thing as "final evolution of life" there are many paths and many possible destinations for evolution... that´s one more of the many reasons why the catalyst is WRONG... accepting that there is only ONE evolution of life is accepting the colonization, the vision of the conquerors over the conquered, domination... that´s why control is wrong and so is synthesis

Many seem to think that technology is directly related to organic/human evolution. It's not. Tech is merely a by product of the learning curve, as if 'evolution' IS that learning curve. It's not.

The OP seems to infer that both are the same in the way the MEU is fashioned BY technology, as if the mergence of both is an APEX of evolution. The story infers that, but only in respect to how both intertwine, not actually "merge", that is the byproduct of intellect and it's wear on the nature of evolution. Two different Catalysts...pun intended.

The idea of any 'ultimate' evolutionary progression, is a 'question' posed as an answer to the riddle of the MEU and it's technological apex. Mixing of synthetic intellect with organic intellect. No sure fire answer, but an interesting conundrum. Maybe that IS the answer: There isn't gonna be one?

Social history isn't about evolution at all, that'd be as if intellect can control it's evolution. Nature is, apparently, in charge of that, doesn't seem to matter if the given intellect is aware of the changes or not. Doesn't mean they won't try to skirt the issues, time will, eventually evolve them. Technology notwithstanding. (cheat threat, disease, death,etc) Apparently, nature it's self governs those predilections, selective qualities. Maybe, if those are completely removed, some how, then some sort of evolutionary 'apex' or 'final' evolution be realized. Synthesis 'seems' to do that, as if it's possible, but the story infers that such a feat is only a possibility, and probably not for organic species, as Edi proclaims it, but She's synthetic, mostly. What part defines her as an intellect? What part defines 'being'? But, in the end, it all seems to just be another 'part' of some non existent 'grand scheme' of nature. How to 'deal' with that and what is the 'answer' to the MEU.

Good luck with that, eh?

(maybe that's where some folks gets the idea(intellectually) that death is a signatory of some final evolution/godhead?)

[Wayning_Star]

Ice Cold J wrote...

 ...but, since Shepard is not God, it's not his/her call to make.

Don't pick Synthesis for that reason.

OK...lol

[Obadiah]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

- Protheans think the Catalyst is the Citadel.
- Catalyst AI calls itself the Catalyst and says the Citadel is part of it.

One explanation is that the Protheans got the "Catalyst" wrong and the Crucible was built to use the Catalyst AI. What's the other explanation for the discrepancy?

The Catalyst uses the Crucible to modify the Citadel towards his own end.  We know this is possible because of the following:
- We've seen that the Citadel is about to reconfigure itself before the Crucible is even docked (when Shepard and Anderson enter via the conduit)
- The Catalyst says he's tried solutions similar to synthesis in the past but couldn't get them to work. He also says the Crucible is adaptive in it's design, hence we can surmise that he's adapted it to create synthesis as a solution to the problem he's been trying to solve
- We see that the Catalyst is capable of shutting down the Crucible entirely in the Refuse option, further showing that he has control over the device.

The alternate explination relies on too much happenstance to be feastable, ie someone being in the Citadel chamber to jump into the beam, the Crucible being able to rewrite an AI who's design is unknown to the creators of the Crucible, (even if they knew about his existance there's no way they knew his construct), a race technologically less sophisticated than the Reapers designing a technology which surpasses their own tech effectivly does exactly what the Reapers wanted etc.

I think you're discussing something else. What you're describing is a an argument that the Crucible was built to create Synthesis, that's not my assertion.

There was an assertion earler that the Crucible was built to interact with the Catalyst AI , and not just the Citadel. I don't see why that is conclusively a false assertion.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Obadiah wrote...
I think you're discussing something else. What you're describing is a an argument that the Crucible was built to create Synthesis, that's not my assertion.

There was an assertion earler that the Crucible was built to interact with the Catalyst AI , and not just the Citadel. I don't see why that is conclusively a false assertion.

What I've been explaining is why that assertion doesn't work given the context we're given and why I belive it's actually the opposite (The crucible was designed solely to interact with the Citadel, the Catalyst however has adapted the Crucible's less advanced towards his own ends). To be built to specifically interact with the AI, the designers would require knowledge of the AI's design and an understanding of arguebale the most sophisticated AI ever built if they wanted this thing to actually work, which would be difficult if not outright impossible given the designers level of technology. The Reapers make a point of targeting civilizations less advanced than their own and can't quite get a handle on their own less advanced AIs.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[MegaSovereign]

It's very likely that the Leviathans helped shape the Crucible's design. But I'm just


Speculating.

[Obadiah]

@Greylycantrope
If the Crucible was designed to interact with the Citadel, then the Crucible plans would just say "use Crucible with Citadel", instead of "use Crucible with Catalyst," "Catalyst" being the term the AI uses to describe itself.

I wouldn't assume anything about the previous cycles, or what the Catalyst did in those cycles. It is entirely possible that the Catalyst once revealed itself to another cycle to find a solution, or another cycle discovered it, just not in the Control/Decision Chamber.

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 avril 2013 - 04:15 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Obadiah wrote...

@Greylycantrope
If the Crucible was designed to interact with the Citadel, then the Crucible plans would just say "use Crucible with Citadel", instead of "use Crucible with Catalyst," "Catalyst" being the term the AI uses to describe itself.

I wouldn't assume anything about the previous cycles, or what the Catalyst did in those cycles. It is entirely possible that the Catalyst once revealed itself to another cycle to find a solution, or another cycle discovered it, just not in the Control/Decision Chamber.

The only solution the Catalyst has been set on has been the Reapers, anything else it tried was before Harbinger came into existance. Once that happend it kept to the plan until now.

The first thing the previous cycles all lost control of was the Citadel, being hidden until the last minute is the entire point of the Reapers whole Citadel trap policy. The keepers also ensure no one pokes around the station too much for fear of breaking something they don't understand (like the keeper themselves, which explode if you poke around them too much). It's what we're told in game.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 avril 2013 - 04:25 .

[Seival]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...


We just have different views of evolution limits. You think that evolution is limitless because you can't see its limits from where you stand. But I think that evolution is limited, because I have a lot of examples of limited things - even something endless like looped paths have limits.

You even sated it yourself or you agreed with someone who said it, (*example not actual post*) that a living being that breathes oxygen and cyanide is completely poisonous to it, and you place him on a planet that has cyanide as a fundamental part of its atmosphere than he/she needs to adapt to cyanide, whether it is nature or synthetics that is evolution. And whether it's synthetics or natural their lungs will disappear (much like our appendix)  because it is a waste of energy and resources. In terms of an energy source, it is impossible to reach 100%(see last paragraph excluding the edit) but does that mean we, or nature, will stop at 90%, NO! In no area of history have there ever been examples of that.  Evolution is not a progress to a simple point, rather a forever changing system trying to achive an equalibrium with its everchanging environment (the universe).

Going back to the person on the cyanide planet, if you tera-form it and restrain a species from evolving that is not the final form of evolution you're simply trying to kill a puppy because you think that it is cutest as a puppy.   If you truly believe that there is a perfect form of life, a "final stage of evolution" than I am both sympathetic and envious of your innocence and ignorance.  Also may I read your examples. 

I am fairly sure that you would argue that it is possible for a 100% efficiency, than here is a paragraph dedicated to disproving that (don't you feel special paragraph).  For every conversion of energy there is a dispersion of heat and entropy, stated by the first two laws of thermal dynamics, a perpetual motion machine is impossible for this same reason.  Every system releases heat or, unusable energy, in the form of entropy, stated in the first law of thermal dynamics.  A system will always require energy in order to change it into a usable form of energy, shown in this equation  G=H-TS where the amount of usable energy (G) is the amount of total energy (H) minus the temperature give off in Kelvin (T) times the amount of entropy given off (S), therefore the only completely efficient system is at 0 degrees Kelvin, which not only does not exist in nature but at which point nothing happens and nothing can. With that said, the second law of thermal dynamics states that a system not already at a thermal equilibrium (death) spontaneously evolves toward it, and therefore it will naturally try to achieve 100% efficiency even though it is only possible at nonexistence.   What you call the "final state of evolution" is the thermodynamic equilibrium which only exists at nonexistence.   

I don't even remember such argument. And this is not the first time you tell that I said something I didn't actually say.

About the example. It is out of place. Completely. You are trying to compare final evolution to reaching 100% efficiency. Adapting to everything doesn't mean achieving high efficiency. You can be ready to everything even at 10% efficiency. You will "produce a lot of heat while resisting", but you will still overcome an obstacle. Evolution is mostly about developing internal and external readiness. High efficiency is not important nor it's possible.

There are different ways to adapt to agressive environments. An organic being's physical limits allow limited adaptation to such environments through the body improvements. And Synthesis improves the physical limits themselves. But limits will always remain limits. Synthesis will make organic beings perfect and allow them to survive much more things without any outer shell, but will not allow them to survive vacuum for example. To survive vacuum or some other dangerous environment (that even synthetics may not survive), organics have to use devices like environmental suits.

That doesn't change the statement that synthesized creature is ready for any possible obstacles both internally and externally, while regular creature is not. Forever changing system is limited as any looped path. It goes through cycles, and repeat itself.

If I misquoted you, than I'm sorry, I have a lot on my mind. 

Although efficiency has everything to do with evolution, it doesn't matter if you can do something but if someone else can do it better than they survive, you die out, that's evolution, survival of the fittest.  Therefore in order to be the "final point of evolution"  you must be the most efficient possible, but reaching 100% is impossible (again I find myself having to go over this).  Taking the experiments of the father of the theory of evolution itself, Darwin's finches, a main land finch could find the correct food source with its current beak, ye it still adapted in order to find and eat it more efficiently.  Same with our evolution from apes, we were perfectly fine swinging with trees, and when the trees started to diminish in Africa, the first monkeys to adapt (Nakalipithecus) could walk on land just and find food just fine, yet they still evolved to (****** Habilis) who use tools. Are tools necessary? no just more efficient.  

And if so that a synthesized creature could overcome any obstacle, they still aren't the most efficient, someone or something could do it better, and therefore they're more fit, and wha-la evolution occurs.  Also you just contradicted yourself, you stated that it would make organics perfect but then stated that they can't survive in a vacuum and therefore not perfect, also synthetics can survive a vacuum.

Also the limits of an organism are not finite, if they were finite, we all would still be fish living in the ocean. They are only finite at a given point in time; a baby cannot lift 300 pounds, it simple can't, but it can, later in life when it's limits expand. 

Evolution has nothing to do with efficiency. Some real life examples:

(1) My own immunity system is not efficient. I become ill very often since my childhood. Over time I used to suffer from all those diseases very often, and my body became always ready for one more disease that I will soon have. In my childhood it was terrible, and everyone told me that I have to improve my immune system. But now I see that not efficient immune system actually has advantages. I know people with very efficient immune system who didn't become ill for many years and were very proud of that. And I knew what happens when those people eventually become ill (immunity is not a 100% defense). They withstand disease very poorly, and have very high risk to gain some dangerous complications. They may die from something that I used to overcome in just few days without even need to stay home to cure myself. I with my not efficient immune system withstand diseases better than people with strong immune system. Why? Because I'm always ready and got used to be ill.

(2) There is a cross-road with very intense traffic. Crushes are quite often here obviously. You can try to improve the cross-road safety measures' efficiency as long as you want. You will reduce the crushes rate, but will never stop crushes from happening. What is the right decision here? The right decision is to forget about cross-road safety's efficiency. Remove the cross-road, dig a tunnel, and build an overpass. There will be no physical possibilities of crushes because of crossed traffic flows. Problem solved. And there is no need in increasing safety efficiency.



There are more examples like human body's "disadvantages" were actually advantages that made us the apex race of this planet. No, evolution is not about efficiency. It's about readiness. And evolution has limits like everything in the universe and the universe itself.

Modifié par Seival, 06 avril 2013 - 05:03 .

[Doctor Uburian]

There is not such a thing called "final evolution of life" Evolution is the gradual development of something, from a simple form to a more complex one, but it is a process that by definition can't end.

You can say that synthesis is one of many ways of evolution, or a part of a chain of evolution, but it is definitelly not the "final evolution", because that would mean death on the long run for any species.

And that very statement defines why the catalyst can't be trusted. It is not because he is evil or cold, it is because he doesn't understand the real scale of the universe. He only has power over one galaxy, he has no knowing of anything beyond that, and thus any plan he design could be completely invalidated out of the milky way. It is simply a matter of scale and probabilities.

This is just my opinion of course

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

This thread is by far the most entertaining read on BSN, maybe even teh interwebz.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 06 avril 2013 - 05:13 .

[Mastone]

I think it is a bit sad that people still try to logically explain any of the endings and headcanon their way around the simple fact that it doesn't make sense whatsoever.

[Seival]

Mastone wrote...

I think it is a bit sad that people still try to logically explain any of the endings and headcanon their way around the simple fact that it doesn't make sense whatsoever.

Those people are explaining their thoughts, because the endings make sense to them.

If they don't make sense to you... Well, it's your own personal problem I suppose. It's not a BioWare fault, and it's not other fans fault.

Modifié par Seival, 06 avril 2013 - 05:27 .