323 réponses à ce sujet

[jacob taylor416]

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, then try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 03 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[Seival]

ghost9191 wrote...

just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Just because you suppose that evolution is limitless doesn't make it limitless.

[ghost9191]

Seival wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Just because you suppose that evolution is limitless doesn't make it limitless.

never said it was. but i do not know for sure. point is made


as long as you need to adapt , you will evolve. most of the time . but synthesis seems to take away the need to evovle. if you can just upgrade yourself when needed... guess i didn't put that ? anyways just guess it is the end of it considering you don't need to anymore

yay ... but i doubt it is the final evolution... maybe by taking that pill it is but doubt it is what would have been achieved without it . if that makes sense lol

just never know

but in the end we don't know sh*t about the universe



if that is the case than well yay for a slow death i suppose. no where to go from there you jsut stop going ...

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 09:22 .

[Seival]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.

[The Night Mammoth]

Unless you're implying that there will come a time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

I don't really understand though. What is the 'end' of evolution as you see it? What does that mean? What is life once is reaches the end? What happens after? 

Your point is sort of hollow. Synthesis is the final evolution of life and that is good. Why? What is the final evolution? Why is this desirable?

Take the lion, for example. It's perfectly adapted to survive on the plains of Africa. What is a lion when it reaches its 'final evolution'? I don't understand why never evolving again is a good thing. As soon as a species' environment changes to the point where it's no longer suited to it, what happens? Does it just continue living though unknown and artificial means? Or does it just die off? The very idea of a final evolution of life doesn't make any sense considering the idea of evolution as we know it, and I'd rather kill off the geth than see the whole galaxy slowly die off because nothing can adapt.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 avril 2013 - 09:32 .

[ghost9191]

somehow that seems better worded than what i put mammoth . oh well

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Unless you're implying that there will come at time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

Evolution end doesn't mean universe freezes. Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Modifié par Seival, 03 avril 2013 - 09:32 .

[Froswald]

The Catalyst was created by something that can be killed, I'll think about the philosophical ramifications of its discussion after I hit the 'Kill Me' button for the entire Reaper race

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Unless you're implying that there will come at time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

Evolution end doesn't mean universe freezes. Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Except, that doesn't make any sense. A species doesn't slowly gain a long list of attributes which allow it to survive all the environments it has lived in throughout the ages, it's not progressive, it's change, it's not a process striving toward a pre-determined point.

Take life now. Once, hundreds of millions of years ago, all life was stricktly aquatic. It couldn't survive on land. Now though, there are millions of species on land. The ancestors of the dog used to be fish. Would a dog survive for long if you threw it the ocean now? Of course not, same with humans, mammals, insects, reptiles, birds...

Evolution wont stop unless the factors which cause and drive it stop. Random mutations, reproduction, and environmental change. To stop evolution, Synthesis would have to stop these things, reproduction most importantly. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 avril 2013 - 09:41 .

[Eterna]

Final evolution of all life could mean a lot of things. Doesn't have to be an ending.

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Unless you're implying that there will come at time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

Evolution end doesn't mean universe freezes. Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Except, that doesn't make any sense. A species doesn't slowly gain a long list of attributes which allow it to survive all the environments it has lived in throughout the ages, it's not progressive, it's change, it's not a process striving toward a pre-determined point.

Take life now. Once, hundreds of millions of years ago, all life was stricktly aquatic. It couldn't survive on land. Now though, there are millions of species on land. The ancestors of the dog used to be fish. Would a dog survive for long if you threw it the ocean now? Of course not, same with humans, mammals, insects, reptiles, birds...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

[adayaday]

Eterna5 wrote...

Final evolution of all life could mean a lot of things. Doesn't have to be an ending.

fi·nal
Adjective-Coming at the end of a series.

Noun-The last game in a sports tournament or other competition, which decides the winner of the tournament.

Synonyms-adjective.  ultimate - last - definitive - terminal - conclusivenoun.  finale - end

Modifié par adayaday, 03 avril 2013 - 09:46 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Unless you're implying that there will come at time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

Evolution end doesn't mean universe freezes. Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Except, that doesn't make any sense. A species doesn't slowly gain a long list of attributes which allow it to survive all the environments it has lived in throughout the ages, it's not progressive, it's change, it's not a process striving toward a pre-determined point.

Take life now. Once, hundreds of millions of years ago, all life was stricktly aquatic. It couldn't survive on land. Now though, there are millions of species on land. The ancestors of the dog used to be fish. Would a dog survive for long if you threw it the ocean now? Of course not, same with humans, mammals, insects, reptiles, birds...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

Does this apply to all organic life? 

[Seival]

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

Exactly.

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Unless you're implying that there will come at time when life never reproduces, DNA never mutates, and the environments of all forms of life around the universe never changes, then yes, evolution is limitless.

I'd hope Synthesis doesn't cause any of those things to happen; that would bring about complete stagnation.

Evolution end doesn't mean universe freezes. Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Except, that doesn't make any sense. A species doesn't slowly gain a long list of attributes which allow it to survive all the environments it has lived in throughout the ages, it's not progressive, it's change, it's not a process striving toward a pre-determined point.

Take life now. Once, hundreds of millions of years ago, all life was stricktly aquatic. It couldn't survive on land. Now though, there are millions of species on land. The ancestors of the dog used to be fish. Would a dog survive for long if you threw it the ocean now? Of course not, same with humans, mammals, insects, reptiles, birds...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

Does this apply to all organic life? 

Impossible to know. I'm leaning towards no simply due to the intelligence of lesser organics such as Varren. 

[jacob taylor416]

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.

So you are stating that there will be no more conflict, that life is stagnate.  Let's say that  life gets to a point where we are all software in a server, there is no contact with the physical world (ideal Synthesis).  This so called "final point of evolution", the Geth were near this point, but they were always looking to find a better sever that allowed them to understand more.  We would be at the same point, we need more, more everything in order to grow.  Try to think of the best computer possible, you can't because there is no such thing, there can always be a better one; faster, smarter, stronger all it needs is time and space, it is only natural.  Much like trying to name the largest number, you'd say  1,000,000 and I'd reply 1,000,001, even though how insignificant it may seem, there is always
a small improvement to make.

If we don't grow, than we are not alive, we are a dead species at that point; what would we do?  Educate children?  we can't have children that would be growing and evolving.  Go to work? to do what, get more money, that would be growing.  We would simply be existing, not more. 


 

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 03 avril 2013 - 10:03 .

[jacob taylor416]

double post

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 03 avril 2013 - 10:02 .

[jacob taylor416]

Seival wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

Exactly.

Oh you mean like evolving! 

[ghost9191]

Seival wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis is instant advancement, you can't possibly apply long term change to it. Synthesis is organic mixed with machine, machines can allow us to live in almost any environment, therefore we can assume post synthesis organics have an ability to qickly and easily adapt to any occurence.

Exactly.

lol funny how you didn't agree with me when i said the same thing   must be the paragade tag

but beside that. it would be a end but it is not necessarily the end we would achieve wihtout it. it is a skip ahead ( which that totally works in the ME universe ) to a end. but not the only one ... as bioware said , it isn't the destination that matters but the journey


but that is just something i felt like saying...   

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 10:10 .

[Boneyaards]

Oh and just to end this idea of "species' going extinct because they reach the pinnacle of evolution" -- species only become stagnant and die because they fail to evolve. When I say pinnacle of evolution, it's to be taken with a grain of salt because evolution truly sees no end. By saying "pinnacle of evolution" I'm talking about a point in human evolution that is beyond our comprehesion. It's a point in life where humans have began to walk the path of transcending death itself. When Synthesis occurs, we will not "BECOME STAGNANT AND DIE!!!11!!one!!" because even though we have become the most evolved society of creatures in the galaxy (as far as we know), that does not mean we have stopped entirely -- it just means that the path is unclear from that point. It's about as unclear as our perception on what humans will look like 300 years from now. Synthesis is like cheating the system and instead of waiting 2,000,000 years to evolve biologically, we take a giant leap forward by integrating our bodies with technology.

"The possibilites are endless, unfortunately, not for mankind." 

There will be a point (in real life) where humans must think about integrating ourselves with technology. With pace makers and advanced prosthetics, we are already doing such. It will be a big step for us as a race, but it will be necessary for our survival in the galaxy. 

Plus, I mean, how cool would it be if other alien races were watching over us and went "holy crap! They just skipped 1.3 million years on the evolution scale by synthesizing their bodies with technology! These guys mean business!"

Cheers!

[jacob taylor416]

Boneyaards wrote...

Oh and just to end this idea of "species' going extinct because they reach the pinnacle of evolution" -- species only become stagnant and die because they fail to evolve. When I say pinnacle of evolution, it's to be taken with a grain of salt because evolution truly sees no end. By saying "pinnacle of evolution" I'm talking about a point in human evolution that is beyond our comprehesion. It's a point in life where humans have began to walk the path of transcending death itself. When Synthesis occurs, we will not "BECOME STAGNANT AND DIE!!!11!!one!!" because even though we have become the most evolved society of creatures in the galaxy (as far as we know), that does not mean we have stopped entirely -- it just means that the path is unclear from that point. It's about as unclear as our perception on what humans will look like 300 years from now. Synthesis is like cheating the system and instead of waiting 2,000,000 years to evolve biologically, we take a giant leap forward by integrating our bodies with technology.

"The possibilites are endless, unfortunately, not for mankind." 

There will be a point (in real life) where humans must think about integrating ourselves with technology. With pace makers and advanced prosthetics, we are already doing such. It will be a big step for us as a race, but it will be necessary for our survival in the galaxy. 

Plus, I mean, how cool would it be if other alien races were watching over us and went "holy crap! They just skipped 1.3 million years on the evolution scale by synthesizing their bodies with technology! These guys mean business!"

Cheers!

Well thank you, I guess, for your explanation but there are a few people stating that all life becomes stagnate after synthesis and it is the FINAL state of evolution. 

[Asharad Hett]

Seival wrote...
Evolution end means you have nothing left to adapt to, because you already adapted to each obstacle life can raise on your way.

Until you eliminate death and reproduction, evolution can not be avoided.

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 03 avril 2013 - 10:35 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

Impossible to know. I'm leaning towards no simply due to the intelligence of lesser organics such as Varren. 

What does intelligence have to do with evolution and Synthesis? 

Let's speculate. 

Say it does. Ignoring the ludcrious side of the argument dealing with how it would work (involving super computers, increasing the frequency of mutations which won't lead anywhere nice, shortening the life-cycle of each organism so the weak are weedled out faster, stupid stuff like that), why would anyone want this? Why does life need this? Life evolves as fast as it needs to, the system is already perfect. If you can't survive, you die, if you can, you live. Making it so every species can swiftly and perfectly adapt to its environment is a pointless thing, it's artificilly meddling with the balance life needs to survive. 

Say it doesn't, and only the advanced species are effected. Synthesis is now completely pointless in this regard. The advanced species of the the galaxy already adapt quickly to any environment, it's not needed. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 avril 2013 - 10:57 .

[Seival]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.

So you are stating that there will be no more conflict, that life is stagnate.  Let's say that  life gets to a point where we are all software in a server, there is no contact with the physical world (ideal Synthesis).  This so called "final point of evolution", the Geth were near this point, but they were always looking to find a better sever that allowed them to understand more.  We would be at the same point, we need more, more everything in order to grow.  Try to think of the best computer possible, you can't because there is no such thing, there can always be a better one; faster, smarter, stronger all it needs is time and space, it is only natural.  Much like trying to name the largest number, you'd say  1,000,000 and I'd reply 1,000,001, even though how insignificant it may seem, there is always
a small improvement to make.

If we don't grow, than we are not alive, we are a dead species at that point; what would we do?  Educate children?  we can't have children that would be growing and evolving.  Go to work? to do what, get more money, that would be growing.  We would simply be existing, not more. 

Not at all.

Actually, I stated that once evolution reached its limits evolved creatures became able to overcome any obstacle life can possibly raise on their way. That doesn't mean there will be no conflicts or obstacles. That means evolved creatures will be ready to any possible conflicts and obstacles as if they already had proper experience in the past. Conflicts and obstacles will just repeat themselves while the cycled path of life moves on.

...And you have very strange idea of "ideal Synthesis". Synthesis doesn't remove your connection to the real world. Synthesis is not a delusion like "Matrix".

Modifié par Seival, 03 avril 2013 - 11:49 .

[mass perfection]

If evolution is adapting to the environment,does that mean in Synthesis,everyone adapts to all environments?