323 réponses à ce sujet

[jacob taylor416]

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Seival wrote...

To everyone who think that evolution is limitless I want to ask a question:

Can you show me a limitless entity? ...And before you start linking pictures of circles and other looped paths, please think if that would be wise first.

Does a circled path actually represent something limitless? No, it has beginning, and is has the end. The beginning is where you started your path. The end is where you reached the beginning after a trip through the entire circle was over. You can continue moving, but you will just repeat your trip. Again, and again, and again. Moreover, to move through the cycled path you have to bind yourself to it. You can't leave the circle, and this is... yes, one more limit.

The beginning, the end, the path's borders. More than enough limits for a "limitless entity", don't you think so?

Go ahead, try to prove me that evolution is limitless. But remember, that you have to show me a truly limitless entity, which is impossible. How can you show that something has no limits? Take pen and paper, paint a spiral till it reaches a border of the paper and tell me there are no limits behind the paper borders? Don't be silly, you can't show limitless things, you have no way to prove evolution is limitless, while I just gave you quite a valid example of path endless and limited at the same time - path which evolution really is.

Okay, than try to explain what the final evolution is?  Because it isn't synthesis, they even state that when EDI says "one day we will evolve to a point I can't even imagine, transcending death itself" or something like that.

I think that "final evolution of life" has quite obvious meaning.

By "final evolution of life" Catalyst meant the "last state in which evolution of life in this galaxy will come to the end". One last hill to take after the point of no return - master the post-Synthesis power, and reach the limits to keep going through the circled path of life being already adapted to all possible obstacles as if you already gone through them before and have all needed experience.

So you are stating that there will be no more conflict, that life is stagnate.  Let's say that  life gets to a point where we are all software in a server, there is no contact with the physical world (ideal Synthesis).  This so called "final point of evolution", the Geth were near this point, but they were always looking to find a better sever that allowed them to understand more.  We would be at the same point, we need more, more everything in order to grow.  Try to think of the best computer possible, you can't because there is no such thing, there can always be a better one; faster, smarter, stronger all it needs is time and space, it is only natural.  Much like trying to name the largest number, you'd say  1,000,000 and I'd reply 1,000,001, even though how insignificant it may seem, there is always
a small improvement to make.

If we don't grow, than we are not alive, we are a dead species at that point; what would we do?  Educate children?  we can't have children that would be growing and evolving.  Go to work? to do what, get more money, that would be growing.  We would simply be existing, not more. 

Not at all.

Actually, I stated that once evolution reached its limits evolved creatures became able to overcome any obstacle life can possibly raise on their way. That doesn't mean there will be no conflicts or obstacles. That means evolved creatures will be ready to any possible conflicts and obstacles as if they already had proper experience in the past. Conflicts and obstacles will just repeat themselves while the cycled path of life moves on.

...And you have very strange idea of "ideal Synthesis". Synthesis doesn't remove your connection to the real world. Synthesis is not a delusion like "Matrix".

I am starting to think we have different definitions of evolution.   When I think of evolution, I  think of a civilization or species adapting in any way in order to survive and thrive in an environment.  So to me we are never fully evolved because things can always get better (like a logarithmic graph, with an asymptote at 1; we can never be perfect and reach one but we can get really close to it like 0.999999999999999 and still get better because it continues forever).  

I believe to you evolution is a more drastic change, where we do not need to become entire new life forms in-order to adapt to new environments, synthetics do it for us.  In my mind that is still evolution, indeed a very small one (a 0.000000000000001) but it is still a change and an evolution, no matter how minute.  

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 04 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[Reorte]

Are there any Synthesis supporters who aren't woefully ignorant about evolution?

[Boneyaards]

jacob taylor416 wrote...

Boneyaards wrote...

Oh and just to end this idea of "species' going extinct because they reach the pinnacle of evolution" -- species only become stagnant and die because they fail to evolve. When I say pinnacle of evolution, it's to be taken with a grain of salt because evolution truly sees no end. By saying "pinnacle of evolution" I'm talking about a point in human evolution that is beyond our comprehesion. It's a point in life where humans have began to walk the path of transcending death itself. When Synthesis occurs, we will not "BECOME STAGNANT AND DIE!!!11!!one!!" because even though we have become the most evolved society of creatures in the galaxy (as far as we know), that does not mean we have stopped entirely -- it just means that the path is unclear from that point. It's about as unclear as our perception on what humans will look like 300 years from now. Synthesis is like cheating the system and instead of waiting 2,000,000 years to evolve biologically, we take a giant leap forward by integrating our bodies with technology.

"The possibilites are endless, unfortunately, not for mankind." 

There will be a point (in real life) where humans must think about integrating ourselves with technology. With pace makers and advanced prosthetics, we are already doing such. It will be a big step for us as a race, but it will be necessary for our survival in the galaxy. 

Plus, I mean, how cool would it be if other alien races were watching over us and went "holy crap! They just skipped 1.3 million years on the evolution scale by synthesizing their bodies with technology! These guys mean business!"

Cheers!

Well thank you, I guess, for your explanation but there are a few people stating that all life becomes stagnate after synthesis and it is the FINAL state of evolution. 

Theoretically, Synthesis could be the final state of evolution. We are not given a whole lot of details regarding Synthesis. As soon as we transcend death and the need to reproduce then we have reached what I would consider the final state of evolution. However, the cutscene after choosing Synthesis tells us that in the future we will be able to transcend death, implying that we are not able to do so immediately after the firing of the crucible. With this, we can assume that while we have skipped many, many steps in evolution, we have not reached the highest point (from our perspective).

However, even when assuming that Synthesis IS the final stage in evolution, that does not necessarily mean that we will become a stagnant species and eventually die out because like I mentioned above, we have transcended death.

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Impossible to know. I'm leaning towards no simply due to the intelligence of lesser organics such as Varren. 

What does intelligence have to do with evolution and Synthesis? 

Let's speculate. 

Say it does. Ignoring the ludcrious side of the argument dealing with how it would work (involving super computers, increasing the frequency of mutations which won't lead anywhere nice, shortening the life-cycle of each organism so the weak are weedled out faster, stupid stuff like that), why would anyone want this? Why does life need this? Life evolves as fast as it needs to, the system is already perfect. If you can't survive, you die, if you can, you live. Making it so every species can swiftly and perfectly adapt to its environment is a pointless thing, it's artificilly meddling with the balance life needs to survive. 

Say it doesn't, and only the advanced species are effected. Synthesis is now completely pointless in this regard. The advanced species of the the galaxy already adapt quickly to any environment, it's not needed. 

The advancement is necessary for organic life to escape the inevitability of the technological singularity. Left to nomral evolution, we'd kill ourselves and potentially all other species with our technology before we could reach a stage as advanced as Synthesis. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 04 avril 2013 - 12:47 .

[Reorte]

Boneyaards wrote...

Theoretically, Synthesis could be the final state of evolution. We are not given a whole lot of details regarding Synthesis. As soon as we transcend death and the need to reproduce then we have reached what I would consider the final state of evolution. However, the cutscene after choosing Synthesis tells us that in the future we will be able to transcend death, implying that we are not able to do so immediately after the firing of the crucible. With this, we can assume that while we have skipped many, many steps in evolution, we have not reached the highest point (from our perspective).

However, even when assuming that Synthesis IS the final stage in evolution, that does not necessarily mean that we will become a stagnant species and eventually die out because like I mentioned above, we have transcended death.

Synthesis also seems to get applied to every other single form of life, a lot of which live by eating each other (directly or indirectly).

Even if we can somehow make it so that we don't die if we keep getting what we need we'll still be able to die if we don't, or get blown up or something.

There are no steps in evolution. There is no highest point.

[Reorte]

Eterna5 wrote...

The advancement is necessary for organic life to escape the inevitability of the technological singularity. Left to nomral evolution, we'd kill ourselves and potentially all other species with our technology before we could reach a stage as advanced as Synthesis.

No evidence to support that rather far-fetched conjecture.

[Red Panda]

Reorte wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The advancement is necessary for organic life to escape the inevitability of the technological singularity. Left to nomral evolution, we'd kill ourselves and potentially all other species with our technology before we could reach a stage as advanced as Synthesis.

No evidence to support that rather far-fetched conjecture.

But there's plenty of catalyst evidence to disprove it not being an issue.

[jacob taylor416]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Impossible to know. I'm leaning towards no simply due to the intelligence of lesser organics such as Varren. 

What does intelligence have to do with evolution and Synthesis? 

Let's speculate. 

Say it does. Ignoring the ludcrious side of the argument dealing with how it would work (involving super computers, increasing the frequency of mutations which won't lead anywhere nice, shortening the life-cycle of each organism so the weak are weedled out faster, stupid stuff like that), why would anyone want this? Why does life need this? Life evolves as fast as it needs to, the system is already perfect. If you can't survive, you die, if you can, you live. Making it so every species can swiftly and perfectly adapt to its environment is a pointless thing, it's artificilly meddling with the balance life needs to survive. 

Say it doesn't, and only the advanced species are effected. Synthesis is now completely pointless in this regard. The advanced species of the the galaxy already adapt quickly to any environment, it's not needed. 

The advancement is necessary for organic life to escape the inevitability of the technological singularity. Left to nomral evolution, we'd kill ourselves and potentially all other species with our technology before we could reach a stage as advanced as Synthesis. 

Well technically there are many possible outcomes of a technological singularity, no one is quite sure what would happen, destruction of everything is only one of many outcomes.

[The Night Mammoth]

None of what you just said explains how being able to adapt to different environments faster means we'd escape synthetic genocide.

And the notion that a technological singularity will inevitably lead to the death of all life is actually kind of disappointing. Stupid too, since by definition the effects can't be certainly predicted like you're implying, but more disappointing, really. What a narrow minded and overly simplistic way to think on it. So many limitless possibilities involving new forms of life and human interaction with technology, but no, robots gonna kill us all, apparently.

[Tron Mega]

the worst part about all of this is that seival is biowares target audience.

[Boneyaards]

Reorte wrote...

Boneyaards wrote...

Theoretically, Synthesis could be the final state of evolution. We are not given a whole lot of details regarding Synthesis. As soon as we transcend death and the need to reproduce then we have reached what I would consider the final state of evolution. However, the cutscene after choosing Synthesis tells us that in the future we will be able to transcend death, implying that we are not able to do so immediately after the firing of the crucible. With this, we can assume that while we have skipped many, many steps in evolution, we have not reached the highest point (from our perspective).

However, even when assuming that Synthesis IS the final stage in evolution, that does not necessarily mean that we will become a stagnant species and eventually die out because like I mentioned above, we have transcended death.

Synthesis also seems to get applied to every other single form of life, a lot of which live by eating each other (directly or indirectly).

Even if we can somehow make it so that we don't die if we keep getting what we need we'll still be able to die if we don't, or get blown up or something.

There are no steps in evolution. There is no highest point.

Humans have experienced several points of hyper-evolution through-out their development as a species. Going from a barbaric race to a civilized, intelligent race that utilizes technology is a huge "step" in evolution. In fact, the best way for humans to evolve is to utilize technology indefinitely. To extrapolate this, when humans are able to colonize other planets and terraform them, we will have reached a new "step" in evolution. So yes, there are steps in evolution. 

However, you are correct about there being no "highest point" because honestly, evolution never ends. Whenever I say pinnacle, or peak, or highest point, it's all in the perspective of us as humans. It's hard to fathom, but there are steps in evolution that are way beyond our own comprehension. In our eyes, we see a "top" in which we can go no further, but that's only because we are so far away from that point that we fail to see any other further possibilities.

[Eterna]

Reorte wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The advancement is necessary for organic life to escape the inevitability of the technological singularity. Left to nomral evolution, we'd kill ourselves and potentially all other species with our technology before we could reach a stage as advanced as Synthesis.

No evidence to support that rather far-fetched conjecture.

Plenty of evidence. The Reapers themselves are evidence for it which is ironic. 

[Random Geth]

I still laugh my ass off at anyone who SERIOUSLy tries to spread this. "Final evolution of life" is, inherently, an oxymoron. There IS no final form of evolution, it is literally impossible. Evolution is, by definition, adapting to your environment to thrive in it.

[CitizenThom]

Destroy is the only way to defeat the Reapers. If you did not choose Destroy, it's because you were indoctrinated.

p.s. the Catalyst epic-failed his Introduction to Logic class.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 04 avril 2013 - 02:32 .

[Eterna]

CitizenThom wrote...

Destroy is the only way to defeat the Reapers. If you did not choose Destroy, it's because you were indoctrinated.

p.s. the Catalyst epic-failed his Introduction to Logic class.

Not really. As cliche as it sounds, you don't get it. 

[Spartas Husky]

Synthesis is the harbinger of our dumbtruction!!!

[CitizenThom]

Eterna5 wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

Destroy is the only way to defeat the Reapers. If you did not choose Destroy, it's because you were indoctrinated.

p.s. the Catalyst epic-failed his Introduction to Logic class.

Not really. As cliche as it sounds, you don't get it. 

Says an indoctrinated person.


i.e. I raise your 'you don't get it' with my own.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 04 avril 2013 - 03:40 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Rhayak wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Yes! Let's become the next version of husks to be used by the Reapers!

I think lemmings are smarter than this.

Certainly smarter than such repetitive headcanon.

You think the Reapers would order Kasumi to.... be reunited with her lover's memory? Or Zaeed to enjoy beer? Or the Quarians to amiably chat with the Geth?

Because it's alarming if you do.


I'm with Seival and her unyielding positivity.

Never knew Seival was a "she"

[Spartas Husky]

pirate1802 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Yes! Let's become the next version of husks to be used by the Reapers!

I think lemmings are smarter than this.

Certainly smarter than such repetitive headcanon.

You think the Reapers would order Kasumi to.... be reunited with her lover's memory? Or Zaeed to enjoy beer? Or the Quarians to amiably chat with the Geth?

Because it's alarming if you do.


I'm with Seival and her unyielding positivity.

Never knew Seival was a "she"

Does it matter? Seival is the harbinger of our dumbtruction!
We are smart because it allows it, and we will be dumb because it demands it!

[Red Panda]

CitizenThom wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

Destroy is the only way to defeat the Reapers. If you did not choose Destroy, it's because you were indoctrinated.

p.s. the Catalyst epic-failed his Introduction to Logic class.

Not really. As cliche as it sounds, you don't get it. 

Says an indoctrinated person.


i.e. I raise your 'you don't get it' with my own.

No offense, but IT is bad fanfiction.

[3DandBeyond]

Revthejedi wrote...

What in the heck are you talking about?

He has no idea.

Problem is, the all-knowing major brain catalyst kid says synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution.  That means beyond it there is no more to strive for, no reason for people to adapt and to alter their current state.  Evolution stops and in science there is a real belief that part of what defines life is the ability to evolve, in order to adapt. 

This whole notion of synthesis as presented in this game is moronic and not gonna happen as some form of evolution.  Alternate life may be created in a petri dish and scientists have made some inroads in creating metallic DNA, but what is shown in this game is not going to happen by evolution.

Also, here's another thought on the idiocy of the whole thing.  The idea is that synthesis will be the most wonderful super terrific way to keep synthetics from killing all organic life.  What a joke.  The game clearly never shows synthetics being fundamentally changed at all-they are not made into hybridized synthetic/organic mixes as are organic people.  They merely get "understanding" which means nothing.  Understanding doesn't keep them from either intentionally or accidentally killing anyone.  They just can't kill all organic life because it no longer exists FOR NOW.  But what about the future?  What if organic life starts to exist again as purely organic life-will synthetics want to destroy it?  The kid seems to think so. 

And scientists today are extremely close to being able to create rudimentary organic life.  They have taken the products that existed in the primordial ooze and hit it with lightning and created amino acids, the building blocks of life.  So, at some future time organic life may well be created at some primitive level-and if the kid is this all knowing prophet, synthetics will inevitably kill them (stupidest thought ever).  Luckily, the reapers are still alive.

[MegaSovereign]

pirate1802 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Yes! Let's become the next version of husks to be used by the Reapers!

I think lemmings are smarter than this.

Certainly smarter than such repetitive headcanon.

You think the Reapers would order Kasumi to.... be reunited with her lover's memory? Or Zaeed to enjoy beer? Or the Quarians to amiably chat with the Geth?

Because it's alarming if you do.


I'm with Seival and her unyielding positivity.

Never knew Seival was a "she"

The woman she was sacrificed herself for something greater.

[Spartas Husky]

MegaSovereign wrote...



The woman she was sacrificed herself for something greater.

Says the indoctrinated slave.

[MegaSovereign]

Spartas Husky wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...



The woman she was sacrificed herself for something greater.

Says the indoctrinated slave.

You missed my joke.

Not that it matters. IT is a joke in itself.

[3DandBeyond]

Rhayak wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Yes! Let's become the next version of husks to be used by the Reapers!

I think lemmings are smarter than this.

Certainly smarter than such repetitive headcanon.

You think the Reapers would order Kasumi to.... be reunited with her lover's memory? Or Zaeed to enjoy beer? Or the Quarians to amiably chat with the Geth?

Because it's alarming if you do.


I'm with Seival and her unyielding positivity.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  Seival has said such things that are so negative as to be abhorrent.  He has said heroes do not exist (that in fact truly good people do not exist), dictatorships are a good thing, free will is a bad thing, and wanted BW to consider creating DLC that had people kept on concentration camp planets. 

And Seival also told me I had no knowledge of real life (because I dislike the dystopian endings BW created that they then tried to somewhat pass of as utopian).  When I gave him examples of what I do know of real life and it's hardships and tough choices (he claimed I had no idea what a tough choice was though I told him I had to decide to let my mother die), he called me a liar.  This is Mr. Happy Face himself-what a wonderfully positive and good natured sort he is.

In fact, he started along this line of everyone should just act like they're in some drug induced state and agree with everything he says.  And most recently he has taken up this idea that people should just all agree that the endings are the best thing ever invented and nothing will ever top them because he also believes that no one can create anything original any more.  Please tell me when his positivity starts.

And for the record, those slides exist merely to make people think the endings are super terrifically happy now-instead of the galaxy being annihilated as the original endings tended to more than imply, due to exploding relays.  The fact that the game shows no real consequences at the end is laughable.  It's not intellectual, intelligent, philosophical. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 avril 2013 - 04:28 .