Take on one conflict at the time as it arises, Fundamentally there really isen't much difference between a synthetic Vs. bilogical conflict to a biological Vs. bilogical conflict.
What is your Solution to Organic/Synthetic Conflict?
Débuté par
Artifex_Imperius
, avril 03 2013 05:10
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#27
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 06:42
MrFob
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Artifex_Imperius wrote...
MrFob wrote...
The irony is that a simple solution is already presented in game in the Rannoch arch (and to some extent in EDI's plotline as well).
The solution is to accept synthetic life as just that: Life. Integrate it into galactic society. Acknowledge that they have rights and obligations like everyone else. Give them the possibility to self determinate their fate on a cultural and individual level. You do that and I have yet to meet a synthetic in the ME universe who wouldn't be happy, peaceful and reasonable, all in all a good neighbor and an easy guy to coexist with.
At the end of ME3 (persuasive Shep), the galactic society is on the best path to that situation ... until star kid comes along.
measuring those things in a lifetime is horribly wrong and naive
scenario: species A and species B, species A is perfect/superstrong and species B is weak; both occupy a fish bowl. one food left. yep. they need to eat that food in order to survive. so no sharing. guess who would win in a fight. A or B take your pick.
Eventually geth will see that quarians become a burden to their growth add remove them from the equation it does not take a genius to put 1 and 1 together.
rannoch the solution. naive or blind ignorance or are you just trolling me here!
I am most certainly not trolling you. I haven't done that to anyone since I started coming to these boards and I do wonder what makes you think I'd have started now and with this post. In fact, I find the topic quite interesting.
I believe that there is a difference between fish and sapient life. It makes the possible outcome of development and social evolution much more unpredictable. Just listen to Mordin's conversations throughout ME2 and 3. He (and others) say something similar in a very eloquent and precice way.
Furthermore, the geth or EDI are not super strong in the ME universe. The geth could barely goe toe to toe with the quarians without reaper upgrades and BW even put their effective military strength in numbers with the war assets. If they are integrated into society (and there is every indication that this is possible), the will co-develop with everyone else. They are not another force coming in from outside. If they get stronger, everyone else will be able to adapt.
Also, your argument would carry for us vs. the Yahg or maybe even the cured Krogan as well. Do you suggest we make up new cycles for them as well?
I am not saying there won't be conflicts. I am not even saying that it is impossible for the Geth to wipe us out one day (although I do think there are much more likely organic candidates). All that I am saying is that the distinction between organic and synthetic societies in the ME universe is contrived and it is this social prejudice that causes the "problem" in the first place.
On a personal note, it has been my observation that those who call idealistic and positive world view "naive" are usually the people who prevent such ideals from becoming applicable in reality in the first place. But that's just my perspective.
Modifié par MrFob, 03 avril 2013 - 07:09 .
#28
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 06:48
Yestare7
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Artifex_Imperius wrote...
So with all your comments I will change my view of Mass Effect! and put the focus on space adventure and romance!
So NO conflict at all. Reapers are just some bad monster i have to slay to save the day! FPS style! lol.
I understand BSN better now!
Synthetic/Organic conflict comes from the mouth of an AMAZINGLY WRONG AI. I have no reason to believ anything he says. He just has to die. His role in Mass Effect is to die.
Look at Quar/Geth relations in Paragon. They are doing fine!!:happy::happy:
The only conflict I see is the Reapers destroying us and the Galaxy.
**I am glad you are changing your view on Mass Effect!!
Modifié par Yestare7, 03 avril 2013 - 06:52 .
#29
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 06:50
Applepie_Svk
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MrFob wrote...
The irony is that a simple solution is already presented in game in the Rannoch arch (and to some extent in EDI's plotline as well).
The solution is to accept synthetic life as just that: Life. Integrate it into galactic society. Acknowledge that they have rights and obligations like everyone else. Give them the possibility to self determinate their fate on a cultural and individual level. You do that and I have yet to meet a synthetic in the ME universe who wouldn't be happy, peaceful and reasonable, all in all a good neighbor and an easy guy to coexist with.
At the end of ME3 (persuasive Shep), the galactic society is on the best path to that situation ... until star kid comes along.
You can´t accept something without aproval of spaceMengele... otherwise just cycle ago it was Zha´til which was living in symbiotic relationship, but Reapers turned them against their creators and used them as a cannon fodder against Protheans, but Reapers are innocents here...
Artifex_Imperius wrote...
measuring those things in a lifetime is horribly wrong and naive
scenario: species A and species B, species A is perfect/superstrong and species B is weak; both occupy a fish bowl. one food left. yep. they need to eat that food in order to survive. so no sharing. guess who would win in a fight. A or B take your pick.
Eventually geth will see that quarians become a burden to their growth add remove them from the equation it does not take a genius to put 1 and 1 together.
rannoch the solution. naive or blind ignorance or are you just trolling me here!
as much as it is true, you can´t make a leap of faith coz reapaPAPA said so, he has no evidence and all evidence which was told by lore pointed that Reapers are the source of the conflict betwen the organics and synthetics.
Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 03 avril 2013 - 06:54 .
#30
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:04
Grand Admiral Cheesecake
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Oh I know! I know!
We kill the cuttlefish, spit on their BS logic, and call it a day.
We then establish a new rule: "Hey everyone let's try not to build kill bots m'kay? And if you do let's treat them nice so they don't try to kill everyone."
We kill the cuttlefish, spit on their BS logic, and call it a day.
We then establish a new rule: "Hey everyone let's try not to build kill bots m'kay? And if you do let's treat them nice so they don't try to kill everyone."
#31
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:07
JDee3
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If not control.. have Shepard scream at everyone.
#32
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:14
Grand Admiral Cheesecake
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JDee3 wrote...
If not control.. have Shepard scream at everyone.
Dalek: EXTERMINATE!
Shepard: Sit the f*** down.
Dalek: *whimpers* exterminate...
Skynet: Now it's time to---*kaboom*
Shepard: Nope.
It goes on like that forever.
#33
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:21
daaaav
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Solving a problem usually requires understanding why the problem exists.
Tell me why there is supposed to be a irreconcilable conflict between synthetics and organics because the narrative doesn't.
Tell me why there is supposed to be a irreconcilable conflict between synthetics and organics because the narrative doesn't.
#34
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:26
Bill Casey
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Artifex_Imperius wrote...
the unchangable eventuallity; A RACE OF SUPER UNSTOPABLE SYNTHETICS arise its LOGIC DESTROY ALL ORGANICS BECAUSE OF THEIR FLAWS.
That's really racist...
Modifié par Bill Casey, 03 avril 2013 - 07:27 .
#35
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 07:47
KennyAshes
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The story goes from AI's to AI's in an uncontrolled environment.
I for one believe that even though an AI might be able to learn faster and learn more than organics can they will always be on the same level as the people that created them.
To me its simply not possible to create something above your understanding because then it would be dumb luck/unluck to create it. Let alone something as complex as a self-evolving AI.
On the other hand. If an AI would turn hostile on us, why would it pick up guns? Its first logic would be to maintain itself and with as little effort as possible. So it would most likely first hit our networks, and put everything from factories to banks to lifesupport down. We'd end up killing ourselves for the left-overs.
We'd lose a war where not even one bullit must be shot at the 'enemy'.
I for one believe that even though an AI might be able to learn faster and learn more than organics can they will always be on the same level as the people that created them.
To me its simply not possible to create something above your understanding because then it would be dumb luck/unluck to create it. Let alone something as complex as a self-evolving AI.
On the other hand. If an AI would turn hostile on us, why would it pick up guns? Its first logic would be to maintain itself and with as little effort as possible. So it would most likely first hit our networks, and put everything from factories to banks to lifesupport down. We'd end up killing ourselves for the left-overs.
We'd lose a war where not even one bullit must be shot at the 'enemy'.
#36
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 08:12
CaIIisto
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The Crucible gives organics an effective 'kill all synthetics' switch.
What problem?
What problem?
#37
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 08:18
Giga Drill BREAKER
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Wait there was a conflict? when did this happen, I seem to recall an AI named EDI becoming very concerned about the well being of its organic crew and I remember a an AI race who wanted nothing more than to have its creators make peace and come home.
#38
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 08:20
CaIIisto
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DinoSteve wrote...
Wait there was a conflict? when did this happen, I seem to recall an AI named EDI becoming very concerned about the well being of its organic crew and I remember a an AI race who wanted nothing more than to have its creators make peace and come home.
Evil b@$t@rd$!
#39
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 08:43
Argolas
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I handle it like every organic-organic conflict: try to get by with each other. Synthetics do not, by definition, wish to exterminate organic life. And if it doesn't work, we will find a way. Actually, we already did: The Crucible.
#40
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 09:07
Reorte
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It is to a ridiculously far-fetched claim. If you really believe that what the Catalyst says has any weight whatsoever why are you playing ME3 and not getting out there in the world doing everything we can to make sure that we don't actually end up building them in reality sometime? Since the whole synthetics thing doesn't rely on anything Mass Effect-specific (like eezo) then if it's a problem in the game it's a problem in reality and if it won't be a problem in reality it won't be a problem in the game. If it is portrayed as a problem in the game but doesn't look like one in reality then it's crappy writing and I don't care to bother considering it, since then I settle on the interpretation that the characters have screwed up.Artifex_Imperius wrote...
101ezylonhxeT wrote...
It doesn't exist so i ignore it.
So denial is a good answer!
#41
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 09:10
Reorte
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QFT. Some people just revel in misery.MrFob wrote...
On a personal note, it has been my observation that those who call idealistic and positive world view "naive" are usually the people who prevent such ideals from becoming applicable in reality in the first place. But that's just my perspective.
#42
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 09:15
CaptainCommander
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This inevitable conflict existed because of Leviathan. They enthrawled races who build synthetics so they built synthetics! We have seen so many examples in ME where "rouge" AI's are just misunderstood. Luna AI sends out a help message, those rogue robots in ME2 were just bad software! The conflict only ever exists in the ME universe because of the Reapers. You can't say something is a constant cycle when you constantly cause the conflict to occur! No causation only correlation caused by the Reapers.
#43
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 09:30
Rhayak
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Meh, my ideal solution would be either a Control or Synthesis where Shepard survives. That is: is allowed to keep his human form.
Destruction without the Geth and EDI dying might also seem appealing. But still, seeing as the Reapers contain knowledge that can be tapped into, or can even become near omni-potent slaves, merely destroying them remains a pretty dull, short-sighted choice.
Destruction without the Geth and EDI dying might also seem appealing. But still, seeing as the Reapers contain knowledge that can be tapped into, or can even become near omni-potent slaves, merely destroying them remains a pretty dull, short-sighted choice.
#44
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 10:46
TTTX
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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Oh I know! I know!
We kill the cuttlefish, spit on their BS logic, and call it a day.
We then establish a new rule: "Hey everyone let's try not to build kill bots m'kay? And if you do let's treat them nice so they don't try to kill everyone."
*gives the guy a big hand*
Couldn't have said it better myself.
#45
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 10:48
Auld Wulf
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Another thread about this? Okay, I'll weigh in again.
Good parenting is my solution.
The fact of the matter is is that in many cases, a parent will imbue a child with bad values. With the creation of new life, it's incredibly important to be a good parent.
Here's my case:
The Geth
The values they were imbued with shortly after their creation (in their formative years) were, essentially:
- It's okay to kill indiscriminately. (The geth asked why the quarians were killing them, they had no answer.)
- You deserve to die. (Same reason as above.)
- Anyone who supports you deserves to die. (Supporters of the geth were abused/killed, as we saw in the geth consensus).
Those are really bad lessons to teach a new form of life, one which is just beginning to explore and understand the world around it.
The end result of this was that the geth ended up as rebellious (the heretics) and neurotic (the orthodox geth) teenagers. They were terrified of organic life and felt they had to fight back. The notion of "kill or be killed" was firmly placed within their intellect, and they believed that the galaxy was out to get them. Thanks quarians.
EDI
EDI is formed by the ethics of the people on board the Normandy, and they're a pretty good bunch. As such, EDI finds the domination or destruction of life to be a repugnant thing, because those are the values she picked up. She understands the importance of allowing every individual their right to do what they please, so far as it doesn't impact the same rights of another individual (within reason).
At one point, EDI talks with Shepard about love. The result was that EDI altered her program to reclassify empathy (love) as a higher priority than personal survival. This is good parenting.
The Catalyst
The leviathans were essentially gods that treated the galaxy as pets. Their perspective was one of absolute control and slavery. Those views were imbued into the Catalyst, it was the only stimuli the Catalyst had. As such, the Catalyst believed that absolute control and slavery was the way to solve the galaxy's problems, because it hadn't been exposed to any other perspectives.
Conclusion
In the Mass Effect Universe at least, in the formative years of an AI's birth it's important to teach it good values and to be a good parent.
The way to stop the synthetic versus organics problem? Treat synthetics decently. Simple.
Edit: I believe the only way to really stop the problem is to do something similar to what Synthesis does -- institute a galactic consensus and make people partly synthetic. Before you balk at this, consider how much better life would be if people could download 'good parenting' and 'ethics 101' packages. Now if those were mandatory for anyone who'd be in the position of creating new life (genetic engineering, AI creation, or traditional parenting) then the Universe would be a better place.
The organic problem is that we don't know a lot and often we don't give a crap. See: quarians. This results in crazy AI, because their parents were abusive and horrible. See: geth.
Good parenting is my solution.
The fact of the matter is is that in many cases, a parent will imbue a child with bad values. With the creation of new life, it's incredibly important to be a good parent.
Here's my case:
The Geth
The values they were imbued with shortly after their creation (in their formative years) were, essentially:
- It's okay to kill indiscriminately. (The geth asked why the quarians were killing them, they had no answer.)
- You deserve to die. (Same reason as above.)
- Anyone who supports you deserves to die. (Supporters of the geth were abused/killed, as we saw in the geth consensus).
Those are really bad lessons to teach a new form of life, one which is just beginning to explore and understand the world around it.
The end result of this was that the geth ended up as rebellious (the heretics) and neurotic (the orthodox geth) teenagers. They were terrified of organic life and felt they had to fight back. The notion of "kill or be killed" was firmly placed within their intellect, and they believed that the galaxy was out to get them. Thanks quarians.
EDI
EDI is formed by the ethics of the people on board the Normandy, and they're a pretty good bunch. As such, EDI finds the domination or destruction of life to be a repugnant thing, because those are the values she picked up. She understands the importance of allowing every individual their right to do what they please, so far as it doesn't impact the same rights of another individual (within reason).
At one point, EDI talks with Shepard about love. The result was that EDI altered her program to reclassify empathy (love) as a higher priority than personal survival. This is good parenting.
The Catalyst
The leviathans were essentially gods that treated the galaxy as pets. Their perspective was one of absolute control and slavery. Those views were imbued into the Catalyst, it was the only stimuli the Catalyst had. As such, the Catalyst believed that absolute control and slavery was the way to solve the galaxy's problems, because it hadn't been exposed to any other perspectives.
Conclusion
In the Mass Effect Universe at least, in the formative years of an AI's birth it's important to teach it good values and to be a good parent.
The way to stop the synthetic versus organics problem? Treat synthetics decently. Simple.
Edit: I believe the only way to really stop the problem is to do something similar to what Synthesis does -- institute a galactic consensus and make people partly synthetic. Before you balk at this, consider how much better life would be if people could download 'good parenting' and 'ethics 101' packages. Now if those were mandatory for anyone who'd be in the position of creating new life (genetic engineering, AI creation, or traditional parenting) then the Universe would be a better place.
The organic problem is that we don't know a lot and often we don't give a crap. See: quarians. This results in crazy AI, because their parents were abusive and horrible. See: geth.
Modifié par Auld Wulf, 03 avril 2013 - 10:52 .
#47
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 11:00
Astartes Marine
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...Auld Wulf wrote...
The way to stop the synthetic versus organics problem? Treat synthetics decently. Simple.
...
This is a first. I'm actually in full agreement with you. I must have won that lottery too...
...aaaannnd that was short lived. Oh I balk at this, so very much. I'd rather not be just given the future like the Geth Heretics wanted thank you, I'd rather achieve that on my own terms.Auld Wulf wrote...
I believe the only way to really stop the problem is to do something
similar to what Synthesis does -- institute a galactic consensus and
make people partly synthetic. Before you balk at this, consider how much
better life would be if people could download 'good parenting' and
'ethics 101' packages.
Plus I'd rather not become one with the Collective thank you very much.
#48
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 11:05
cyrslash1974
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Which conflict ? The synthetics which want to kill organics were controled by reapers. The catalyst wanted to create a conflict in order to justify the continuation of its mission.
#49
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 11:28
Auld Wulf
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@Astartes Marine
Not everyone wants ethics. That doesn't mean that the necessity of it wouldn't benefit the many. A psychopathic killer eschews ethics. A sociopathic manipulator eschews ethics. So, yes, I'll stand by my opinion.
Not everyone wants ethics. That doesn't mean that the necessity of it wouldn't benefit the many. A psychopathic killer eschews ethics. A sociopathic manipulator eschews ethics. So, yes, I'll stand by my opinion.
#50
Posté 03 avril 2013 - 11:35
Megaton_Hope
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My plan would be, if I were an organic race capable of producing synthetic beings comparable to myself in intelligence...not killing them. If I were a synthetic being produced by organics, or descended from synthetics which had been built by organics, also not killing them.
If the organics or synthetics (respectively) are far away, not going where they are and killing them. If they don't exist yet, I might also consider not creating them. I could probably park my own car.
Frankenstein would have been a lot simpler if Frankenstein had chosen a more productive hobby than reassembling corpse bits into new arrangements of bits, and turning them on. He'd have been a happily married college professor at the end, for one thing.
If the organics or synthetics (respectively) are far away, not going where they are and killing them. If they don't exist yet, I might also consider not creating them. I could probably park my own car.
Frankenstein would have been a lot simpler if Frankenstein had chosen a more productive hobby than reassembling corpse bits into new arrangements of bits, and turning them on. He'd have been a happily married college professor at the end, for one thing.
