148 réponses à ce sujet

[SiriusXI]

Treat Synthetic life as a valid form of life next to organic life. Cooperate.

[Astartes Marine]

Auld Wulf wrote...
@Astartes Marine
Not everyone wants ethics. That doesn't mean that the necessity of it wouldn't benefit the many. A psychopathic killer eschews ethics. A sociopathic manipulator eschews ethics. So, yes, I'll stand by my opinion.

So...because I don't want it handed to me on a silver platter by those who just a few hours before were trying to exterminate me and everyone around me...I don't want ethics?  And I am apparently a sociopath?

What the **** is wrong with you? 

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 03 avril 2013 - 11:52 .

[KennyAshes]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...
@Astartes Marine
Not everyone wants ethics. That doesn't mean that the necessity of it wouldn't benefit the many. A psychopathic killer eschews ethics. A sociopathic manipulator eschews ethics. So, yes, I'll stand by my opinion.

So...because I don't want it handed to me on a silver platter by those who just a few hours before were trying to exterminate me and everyone around me...I don't want ethics?  And I am apparently a sociopath?

What the **** is wrong with you? 

I don't think he was pointing at you. He was point at ethics etc.
Sometimes ethics are completely besides the point. Sometimes you need evil to fight evil how horrible it might sound. If you always want to fight evil with forgiveness, patience and understanding you will get your skull cracked in.
And while teachings from parents might steer the children in the right way there is no guarantee that the kid will not become the greatest mass murderer in history. Even if its from 'power corrupts', drugs of any kind, mental unstability, trauma...
Making ethics a universal constant is also very wrong. Ethics are defined by every person himself for himself and bound by law.

[LTKerr]

Organic/synthetic conflict is just the same as racism. The solution is simple: comprehension, respect... common sense.

[MattFini]

I don't believe there is one.

I believe there MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE at one time, in one cycle.

We don't have any evidence that proves that this has happened time and time again. And no, I'm not calling the StarChild a liar. He thinks there is a problem and has been tasked with solving it. But that's not the same as there actually being a problem.

[Nerevar-as]

Don´t build Ais. And if you do, be nice to them. Starbrat aside, all other conflicts in ME seem to be the result of creating self-aware slave workers, whether intentionally or not.

[knightnblu]

I disagree with your main point. What the Catalyst sought to do was to impose order on a disordered system defying the laws of nature. In essence, he sought to order chaos. As such, he was doomed to failure because there is no way that he could maintain the stasis he had created in the galaxy and I would also submit that his solution brought far more horror to the galaxy than merely allowing nature to run its course. If anything illustrates that the Catalyst is insane it is his point of view.

The laws of nature are inviolate because they have to be. Oh sure, you can do some damage to the environment, you can burn forests, and you can strip mine until the cows come home, but none of these things are permanent. In fact, nothing an organism does to their environment is permanent. If it were then the laws of nature would be subservient to the organisms which they created and that is a Non sequitur. Therefore, if the organism is subservient to nature then how can it create something that is superior to nature and therefore is able to abridge it's laws? The short answer is that it cannot be. As such, the perfection of the machine is a myth and something that should be reserved for the concept of Deity.

To our eyes the Reapers look impressive, but if one were to consider them in geologic time the shine wears off quickly. The same could be said of Leviathan because they too were created by nature and are therefore subservient to nature's laws. Again, it was not seeking the peace of the grave for organics and synthetics, but seeking to control and define chaos by harnessing nature that was the Reapers objective and that is why they were doomed to failure from the very beginning.

So my solution is to destroy the Catalyst and allow nature to reassert herself in the galaxy restoring the natural order.

[CaptainZaysh]

iakus wrote...

There will be conflict. There will be solutions. 

There won't be a solution once the synthetics evolve past our capabilities to threaten them.  (Or more correctly, there will be a solution, just not one our descendants will like.)

iakus wrote...
Just like the conflicts between other nations and species. There is no one solution because there is no one factor that touches off conflicts. Just gotta figure it out when you get there and try to keep the peace in the meantime. Just like we do today.

Figuring it out once it happens will be too late, because by definition once it happens we lose our ability to control the outcome.  We can only take preemptive action.

[CaptainZaysh]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Don´t build Ais. 

The trouble with this is that you'll eventually get replaced by an enemy army that did build AIs.  During the Luna mission in ME1, Hackett admits that the Alliance army couldn't function without extensive VI support.

Nerevar-as wrote...
And if you do, be nice to them. Starbrat aside, all other conflicts in ME seem to be the result of creating self-aware slave workers, whether intentionally or not.

"Diplomacy is great when it works, but difficult when everyone already perceives you as a threat."

[robertthebard]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I reject the idea that there is one.

But if there were, hypothetically, I'd need more information. All we know is that. supposedly, organics always make synthetics, and for some reason, these synthetics always destroy their creators, and that inevitably, they will wipe out all organic life, without intervention.

There must be a whole lot more to it than that moronically simple and asinine explanation.

denial again! where going some where here! So if the reaper directive was to extinguish all life and they'd deny you the crucible fight you conventionally glass every last planet in orbit. no harvesting and no mercy. how'd that feel? how'd me verse feel if shepard never ever wins and fight a losing. battle how bout that.

scenario BAM destroy earth NO LANDING just nuke the planet from orbit. BAM destroy palaven destroy thessia.
ANd retreate to darkspace bam detonante every last relay to destroy every goddamn living thing in the galaxy. howd that feel. for no solution.

It actually feels pretty good.  I die in London a lot, nuked by Harbinger.  I have already suffered one DeM in the ME series, or I wouldn't have played ME 2.  Why force myself into another one?

That said, I purchased Leviathan, and have to laugh at the irony of synthetics are wiping out organics, so, as an organic, I'm going to create a synthetic to solve the problem, which then turns on me, and destroys me.

[CaptainZaysh]

LTKerr wrote...

Organic/synthetic conflict is just the same as racism.

Left unchecked, synthetics can evolve to a point where their intelligence is greater than ours and continually improving, which would make them impossible to defeat in a war.  Concern about that eventuality is nothing like racism.

[Auld Wulf]

Raise and treat synthetics decently and you won't have any problems.

EDI is a fine example of that.

[CaptainZaysh]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Raise and treat synthetics decently and you won't have any problems.

EDI is a fine example of that.

It's lucky you know exactly how an alien superintelligence will think and react, because the consequences of you being wrong could be quite disastrous.

[Wayning_Star]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Raise and treat synthetics decently and you won't have any problems.

EDI is a fine example of that.

It's lucky you know exactly how an alien superintelligence will think and react, because the consequences of you being wrong could be quite disastrous.

Spastic cat chasing laser  

[Reorte]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

Organic/synthetic conflict is just the same as racism.

Left unchecked, synthetics can evolve to a point where their intelligence is greater than ours and continually improving, which would make them impossible to defeat in a war.  Concern about that eventuality is nothing like racism.

The same is true of some groups of humans. Too bad that the less technologically advanced parts of the world didn't kill the more advanced one before they got too advanced, because the advanced ones are going to go on a rampage and kill them all for no reason at all.

Anyway, if the synthetics end up being fundamentally part of the same society then there's even less of an issue (try reading Iain Banks' Culture novels).

Do you have any idea how unpleasant and paranoid "It's different to us. It might get more advanced than us. KILL IT!" looks?

Modifié par Reorte, 04 avril 2013 - 12:35 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Reorte wrote...

The same is true of some groups of humans. Too bad that the less technologically advanced parts of the world didn't kill the more advanced one before they got too advanced, because the advanced ones are going to go on a rampage and kill them all for no reason at all.

It's not the same.  Comparing two groups of humans is different from comparing humans to a continually-advancing alien superintelligence for reasons too obvious to point out.

The parallel that is worth examining is how impossible it is for the less powerful group to defy the will of the more powerful group.  If the USA decided to commit wholeheartedly to ridding the world of Falkland Islanders, for instance, there is very little anybody could do to prevent it.

Reorte wrote...

Anyway, if the synthetics end up being fundamentally part of the same society then there's even less of an issue

And if they don't?

Reorte wrote...
Do you have any idea how unpleasant and paranoid "It's different to us. It might get more advanced than us. KILL IT!" looks?

I was a soldier, I'm okay with doing things polite society would find extremely unpleasant.

[Reorte]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Reorte wrote...

The same is true of some groups of humans. Too bad that the less technologically advanced parts of the world didn't kill the more advanced one before they got too advanced, because the advanced ones are going to go on a rampage and kill them all for no reason at all.

It's not the same.  Comparing two groups of humans is different from comparing humans to a continually-advancing alien superintelligence for reasons too obvious to point out.

It's simply about one group being more advanced than another. That should be too obvious to need pointing out.

The parallel that is worth examining is how impossible it is for the less powerful group to defy the will of the more powerful group.  If the USA decided to commit wholeheartedly to ridding the world of Falkland Islanders, for instance, there is very little anybody could do to prevent it.

And yet for some reason the USA doesn't appear to be doing that.

Reorte wrote...

Anyway, if the synthetics end up being fundamentally part of the same society then there's even less of an issue

And if they don't?

Then there might be conflict until there's no overlap, most likely.

Reorte wrote...
Do you have any idea how unpleasant and paranoid "It's different to us. It might get more advanced than us. KILL IT!" looks?

I was a soldier, I'm okay with doing things polite society would find extremely unpleasant.

Which is why some soldiers need people above them to keep them under control.

edit messed-up quoting, is there some preview button here that I've always managed to miss?

Modifié par Reorte, 04 avril 2013 - 12:56 .

[Steelcan]

It's quite simple. Don't do anything. Either things will work out cooperatively out of mutual interest or synthetics will be destroyed.

It's really simple actually.

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

It's quite simple. Don't do anything. Either things will work out cooperatively out of mutual interest or synthetics will be destroyed.

It's really simple actually.

chaos is never simple, generally..lol

[CaptainZaysh]

Reorte wrote...

It's simply about one group being more advanced than another. That should be too obvious to need pointing out.

That's such a shallow comparison, though.  When you look into the details the two situations are very different.  It's like a poster saying earlier "this issue is the same as racism".  Yeah, if you don't actually investigate it beyond what's on the surface.

Reorte wrote...
And yet for some reason the USA doesn't appear to be doing that.

We can predict and model the behaviour of the USA with a lot more confidence than we can predict and model the behaviour of an inorganic alien superintelligence.

Reorte wrote...
Then there might be conflict until there's no overlap, most likely.

That's kind of what I'm worried about.

Reorte wrote...
Which is why some soldiers need people above them to keep them under control.

Yeah, I completely agree.  My point, though, is that just because my viewpoint is unpleasant doesn't mean it's not correct.

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

It's quite simple. Don't do anything. Either things will work out cooperatively out of mutual interest or synthetics will be destroyed.

Why this outcome?

[Wayning_Star]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Reorte wrote...

It's simply about one group being more advanced than another. That should be too obvious to need pointing out.

That's such a shallow comparison, though.  When you look into the details the two situations are very different.  It's like a poster saying earlier "this issue is the same as racism".  Yeah, if you don't actually investigate it beyond what's on the surface.

Reorte wrote...
And yet for some reason the USA doesn't appear to be doing that.

We can predict and model the behaviour of the USA with a lot more confidence than we can predict and model the behaviour of an inorganic alien superintelligence.

Reorte wrote...
Then there might be conflict until there's no overlap, most likely.

That's kind of what I'm worried about.

Reorte wrote...
Which is why some soldiers need people above them to keep them under control.

Yeah, I completely agree.  My point, though, is that just because my viewpoint is unpleasant doesn't mean it's not correct.

 

[CaptainZaysh]

Wayning_Star wrote...

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It always existed, but it was bum-rushed and very badly written into being the main theme/conflict of the trilogy when it was secondary theme that was resolved (one way or another) at Rannoch.

Peace with synthetics is possible without synthesis. Peace with synthetics is possible without the Reapers. Peace with synthetics is possible without controlling the Reapers to enforce peace.

In the universe, the Catalysts' very existence is flawed. He is a synthetic who annihilated his organic creators to enforce his solution. To this perfect machine intelligence that is created by an imperfect creator, it's a logical and acceptable conclusion (to the Catalyst). But as I said, he was created by imperfect beings who postulated an imperfect assignment with an imperfect explanation.
He follows it to the letter, and acknowledges what he does as more or less in line with what his creators wanted: He kills organic races before they have a chance to create synthetics that would kill them, and preserves them as Reapers. He leaves the younger, less advanced species alone. Thus, he preserves life without letting synthetics destroy organics.

As you can see, there is the fallacy in there that he does not acknowledge, at least, not without synthesis which is his perfect solution.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Catalyst truly believes in what he's talking about.

But I don't. I see that his whole existence is flawed and that really, he's doing anything but preserving organic races. It's his logical machine intelligence that makes him think it's right.
It's not right, and neither are his Reapers. I destroy them.

Out of universe, I wrote my own ending. The themes behind the ending are friendship and camaraderie, self-determination, galactic unity, and order vs. chaos.