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Synthesis

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's quite simple. Don't do anything. Either things will work out cooperatively out of mutual interest or synthetics will be destroyed.

Why this outcome?

. It's what seems to happen if the Reapers don't show up.

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

It's what seems to happen if the Reapers don't show up.

But without the Reapers, there's nothing to prevent the synthetics becoming a superintelligence.  Once they're more intelligent than us it seems that we're more likely to be destroyed than them, right?

[Wayning_Star]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It always existed, but it was bum-rushed and very badly written into being the main theme/conflict of the trilogy when it was secondary theme that was resolved (one way or another) at Rannoch.

Peace with synthetics is possible without synthesis. Peace with synthetics is possible without the Reapers. Peace with synthetics is possible without controlling the Reapers to enforce peace.

In the universe, the Catalysts' very existence is flawed. He is a synthetic who annihilated his organic creators to enforce his solution. To this perfect machine intelligence that is created by an imperfect creator, it's a logical and acceptable conclusion (to the Catalyst). But as I said, he was created by imperfect beings who postulated an imperfect assignment with an imperfect explanation.
He follows it to the letter, and acknowledges what he does as more or less in line with what his creators wanted: He kills organic races before they have a chance to create synthetics that would kill them, and preserves them as Reapers. He leaves the younger, less advanced species alone. Thus, he preserves life without letting synthetics destroy organics.

As you can see, there is the fallacy in there that he does not acknowledge, at least, not without synthesis which is his perfect solution.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Catalyst truly believes in what he's talking about.

But I don't. I see that his whole existence is flawed and that really, he's doing anything but preserving organic races. It's his logical machine intelligence that makes him think it's right.
It's not right, and neither are his Reapers. I destroy them.

Out of universe, I wrote my own ending. The themes behind the ending are friendship and camaraderie, self-determination, galactic unity, and order vs. chaos.

bold italics underlined= Catalyst

[Iakus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

There won't be a solution once the synthetics evolve past our capabilities to threaten them.  (Or more correctly, there will be a solution, just not one our descendants will like.)

Speculation, both that this would ever happen and that conflict would result if it did, and not htat the synthetics qould simply leave..

iakus wrote...
Figuring it out once it happens will be too late, because by definition once it happens we lose our ability to control the outcome.  We can only take preemptive action.

Or we can simply stay on friendly terms with the synthetics.

Sorry, I need a better reason than "it has circuits" to kill someone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wayning_Star wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Out of universe, I wrote my own ending. The themes behind the ending are friendship and camaraderie, self-determination, galactic unity, and order vs. chaos.

bold italics underlined= Catalyst

Allow me to stipulate my meaning

Galactic Unity = Unity of all civilizations against a common enemy: the Reapers. They all unite together in the face of galactic annihilation.

Order vs Chaos = The Reapers machinated order and erfection, combined with the arrogance and narcissism of Leviathan, against the unregimented chaos of the galaxy, the imperfection, choice, and freewill of non-Reapers.

[Wayning_Star]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Out of universe, I wrote my own ending. The themes behind the ending are friendship and camaraderie, self-determination, galactic unity, and order vs. chaos.

bold italics underlined= Catalyst

Allow me to stipulate my meaning

Galactic Unity = Unity of all civilizations against a common enemy: the Reapers. They all unite together in the face of galactic annihilation.

Order vs Chaos = The Reapers machinated order and erfection, combined with the arrogance and narcissism of Leviathan, against the unregimented chaos of the galaxy, the imperfection, choice, and freewill of non-Reapers.

you mean the Catalyst, not reaperships? They merely do like they're told. (and a bit too good at it, using organic intellect, no less. Generally speaking, machine minds cannot technically be deceptive, as that is 'illogical'...)

[The Night Mammoth]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's what seems to happen if the Reapers don't show up.

But without the Reapers, there's nothing to prevent the synthetics becoming a superintelligence.  

Except being blown up by organics, which was what was going to happen. 

Once they're more intelligent than us it seems that we're more likely to be destroyed than them, right?

Why? Intelligence has never been a measure of power or intention. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 avril 2013 - 01:56 .

[CaptainZaysh]

iakus wrote...

Speculation, both that this would ever happen

The geth were actively working towards it, until the quarians blew their Dyson Bubble out of orbit.

Think of it this way - EDI has the capacity to achieve intellectual superiority over her creator.  Theoretically she could create a better EDI than Cerberus did, which could in turn create a better EDI than EDI did, and so on.  In a fairly short time you have an EDI far more intelligent than any human, turian, asari or salarian.

Better hope its friendly, right?

iakus wrote...
and that conflict would result if it did, and not htat the synthetics qould simply leave..

It's more accepting that conflict could result.  If our only viable defensive strategy in the situation is "hoping they will leave" then sleepwalking into that situation is the height of stupidity and neglect.

iakus wrote...
Or we can simply stay on friendly terms with the synthetics.

But it takes two to be friends.  What if they decide they'd rather eliminate us?  We just sleepwalked to our doom.

iakus wrote...
Sorry, I need a better reason than "it has circuits" to kill someone.

Me too, obviously.

[cerberus1701]

If there is a conflict, it exists almost solely because the Bratalyst cultivates it cycle after cycle.

In ME1 Sovereign says flat out that they leave the tech to herd the races into developing as they choose. He has tweaked the Rachni to trigger a war.

He does what he has to do to justify his solution.

[AresKeith]

stay friendly and not try to make them slaves

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's what seems to happen if the Reapers don't show up.

But without the Reapers, there's nothing to prevent the synthetics becoming a superintelligence.  Once they're more intelligent than us it seems that we're more likely to be destroyed than them, right?

. Not of we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  Or find a way to exist cooperatively

[CaptainZaysh]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Except being blown up by organics, which was what was going to happen.

But we can't expect that to always happen.

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Why? Intelligence has never been a measure of power or intention. 

You don't believe that a more intelligent species has an advantage over a less intelligent one?

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

Not if we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  

Great, but how do we do that?  How do we stop a whole galaxy of scientists and engineers advancing in the field of AI technology?

Steelcan wrote...
Or find a way to exist cooperatively

Cooperation is only something we can offer.  There's no guarantee it would be accepted, and when we're talking about the survival of our entire species we want as many guarantees as possible.

[KennyAshes]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's what seems to happen if the Reapers don't show up.

But without the Reapers, there's nothing to prevent the synthetics becoming a superintelligence.  Once they're more intelligent than us it seems that we're more likely to be destroyed than them, right?

The programming of the synthetics is of influence. If we leave our computers for a while they didn't do anything. A computer basically only reacts to given input,processes it and then gives output in a chosen way. No mather the processingpower behind it it will not act on its own. Even a "selfteaching"program basically is nothing more than an expanding database.
For synthetics to act with violance it will have to be programmed in the code it runs. And that still varies a lot when it comes to selfpreservation. e.g. move itself by way of hacking, only defend itself, or react offensively, etc...
Even artificial intelligence is like this it is bound by the limitations of its coding. It must be a complete idiot that would program an AI to act or react offensively at certain treshholds. It even would be stupid to let your computer act instead of react.In all honesty, I don't even know if it is possible to let something you have to program act instead of react. And in the situation given the AI basically acts out of its own will. Even Skynet is just react out of selfpreservation. But technologically there is a lot wrong with that. Like, how did skynet gain access to atomicbombcontrol? Via the network or even internet ? Smart move from like every country with nuclearweapons to hang launchcontrol on the network ... (even if not on the same network with some experimental VI)

[Stalker]

There is no solution to conflict. It will happen as long as there are different world views.

Only acceptable choice in the situation of Shepard is eliminating those who force a way of life on you and that are the Reapers.

[The Night Mammoth]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Except being blown up by organics, which was what was going to happen.

But we can't expect that to always happen.

Why not? It has about as much basis as expecting the alternative to always happen. 

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Why? Intelligence has never been a measure of power or intention. 

You don't believe that a more intelligent species has an advantage over a less intelligent one?

Yes actually, but being more intelligent isn't a measure of power or intent. 

[CaptainZaysh]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why not? It has about as much basis as expecting the alternative to always happen.

Sure, but that's not my position.  My position is that each conflict has the potential to result either in synthetic or organic victory.  You and Steelcan seem to think that conflict can only result in organic victory.  Why?

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Yes actually, but being more intelligent isn't a measure of power or intent. 

I'm not saying it is, simply that should a more intelligent alien species decide to wage war on us, we're kind of f**ked.  It seems to me we should do all we can to avoid getting into that situation.

[Iakus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The geth were actively working towards it, until the quarians blew their Dyson Bubble out of orbit.

And so it remains speculation, as teh structure was blown apart despite having all those geth networked.

Think of it this way - EDI has the capacity to achieve intellectual superiority over her creator.  Theoretically she could create a better EDI than Cerberus did, which could in turn create a better EDI than EDI did, and so on.  In a fairly short time you have an EDI far more intelligent than any human, turian, asari or salarian.

"If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas"

You're assuming EDI would have any interest in building an EDI 2.0  You're assuming that one would want to built a 3.0 model, and so on.  You're assuming that such "descendants" would quickly reach a point where they'd greatly outstrip organics (they don't hit a technological brick wall).  You're assuming they'd end up hostile at some point, and you're assuming that they'd gain the resources to pose a credible threat.

iakus wrote...
It's more accepting that conflict could result.  If our only viable defensive strategy in the situation is "hoping they will leave" then sleepwalking into that situation is the height of stupidity and neglect.

Conflict could result, yes.  But I'd rather befriend a potential ally than destroy a potential enemy. 

iakus wrote...
But it takes two to be friends.  What if they decide they'd rather eliminate us?  We just sleepwalked to our doom.

If conflict results anyway, we deal with it.  With the allies we do have.  Potentially including other synthetic ones.

[CaIIisto]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

You and Steelcan seem to think that conflict can only result in organic victory.  Why?

Probably because the organics have the "kill all synthetics with one push of a button" machine......

[shodiswe]

It's a problem that would have to be handled in the same way as any other problem. If the Salarians get out of line then you "handle it". If the Turians get out of line then the same thing.

This is what happend to the Rachni and the Krogan, they got out of line and others were forced to take care of it.

Maybe it's the Quarians that needs to be taken care of next, who knows. Generalizations are stupid imo.

From the look of it it seems all life no matter what type can become a problem. The catalyst cares about this specific problem because the "Leviathans" cared.

The Leviathans coudln't enslave synthetics and that meant that even if synthetics populated a world no "tribute" would flow from those worlds because they ignored the Leviathans since the Leviathans coudln't mindcontrol them.

Therefor the Leviathans wanted the Catalyst to stop the problem of "synthetics".

It could be that synthetics could be our best weapon against the Leviathans. Though it's likely the Leviathans first action will be to attack the Geth if they are still around sicne they really hate dissobedient creatures that they can't control.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 03:00 .

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Not if we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  

Great, but how do we do that?  How do we stop a whole galaxy of scientists and engineers advancing in the field of AI technology?

We don't need to.  We only need to step in if synthetics become a threat to us.

[shodiswe]

Steelcan wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Not if we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  

Great, but how do we do that?  How do we stop a whole galaxy of scientists and engineers advancing in the field of AI technology?

We don't need to.  We only need to step in if synthetics become a threat to us.

What if organics become a threat to us? Like the Krogan or Salarians or Yagh? or Rachni? Or Turians?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Not if we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  

Great, but how do we do that?  How do we stop a whole galaxy of scientists and engineers advancing in the field of AI technology?

We don't need to.  We only need to step in if synthetics become a threat to us.

The point where the catalyst is wrong is when he says that conflict will arise when organics are overtaken by synthetics. 

That's the part of the argument that I observe as a falsehood.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shodiswe wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Not if we destroy them before they become. A super intelligence.  

Great, but how do we do that?  How do we stop a whole galaxy of scientists and engineers advancing in the field of AI technology?

We don't need to.  We only need to step in if synthetics become a threat to us.

What if organics become a threat to us? Like the Krogan or Salarians or Yagh? or Rachni? Or Turians?

You're using a red herring argument here. You'd react the same as if the synthetics were uprising.