148 réponses à ce sujet

[CaIIisto]

shodiswe wrote...
What if organics become a threat to us? Like the Krogan or Salarians or Yagh? or Rachni? Or Turians?

To play devil's advocate - the Krogan and the Rachni did become a threat, and both were dealt with.....

Just saying.....

[Zazzerka]

If technological singularities are possible, then it's something something that we will have to deal with in the future, and seeing as we probably won't be able to use synthesis, we're either f*cked regardless, or it's a surmountable problem.

Does that freak out anyone else?

[CaptainZaysh]

iakus wrote...

And so it remains speculation, as teh structure was blown apart despite having all those geth networked.

Which brings me back to my original point.  You advocate dealing with the superior intelligence after it establishes itself: I believe that's too late to act as we've lost our ability to control the outcome.

iakus wrote...
"If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas"

You're assuming EDI would have any interest in building an EDI 2.0  You're assuming that one would want to built a 3.0 model, and so on.  You're assuming that such "descendants" would quickly reach a point where they'd greatly outstrip organics (they don't hit a technological brick wall).  You're assuming they'd end up hostile at some point, and you're assuming that they'd gain the resources to pose a credible threat.

Yeah, it's called threat analysis!  It's impossible to have a conversation about the topic if the party warning of a future threat isn't allowed to make if/then predictions.

iakus wrote...
Conflict could result, yes.  But I'd rather befriend a potential ally than destroy a potential enemy.

Me too, but is it really responsible to risk the survival of the entire species based on what we'd personally rather do?

iakus wrote...
If conflict results anyway, we deal with it.  With the allies we do have.  Potentially including other synthetic ones.

You keep presenting this as an option, but there is little chance that we would be able to deal with (i.e. defeat militarily) a superintelligent alien enemy.

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

We don't need to.  We only need to step in if synthetics become a threat to us.

But realistically how do we police every AI lab and robot factory in the galaxy to ensure that the synthetic threat is always nipped in the bud before they become a threat?  I think that in terms of logistics and intelligence this is a much grander task than you're imagining, with plenty of blind spots.

[Iakus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Which brings me back to my original point.  You advocate dealing with the superior intelligence after it establishes itself: I believe that's too late to act as we've lost our ability to control the outcome.

I advocate dealing with threats after once they establish themselves.  I do not advocate preemptive attacks based purely on "what ifs"

iakus wrote...
Yeah, it's called threat analysis!  It's impossible to have a conversation about the topic if the party warning of a future threat isn't allowed to make if/then predictions.

If/then predictions are fine as long as they're simply planning for contingencies.  It's when the analyses come to the conclusion of "kill them all now"  that things get....problematic.

iakus wrote...
Me too, but is it really responsible to risk the survival of the entire species based on what we'd personally rather do?

So we should, what, not cure the genophage?

iakus wrote...
You keep presenting this as an option, but there is little chance that we would be able to deal with (i.e. defeat militarily) a superintelligent alien enemy.

Everything has a weakness

Modifié par iakus, 04 avril 2013 - 03:22 .

[fr33stylez]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

You keep presenting this as an option, but there is little chance that we would be able to deal with (i.e. defeat militarily) a superintelligent alien enemy.

See Reapers.

[Linkenski]

Well, assuming i am Shepard standing wounded, bleeding out at the crucible dock, i'd tell the starchild that he's wrong by proving it with arguments. I'd tell him that the synthetics of this cycle have been in conflict, but only because of his solution, and that the synthetics weren't rebelling, but protecting themselves from slaughter. To end that argument i would say that in the end the conflict was resolved peacefully, so that is why the Reapers are unnecessary.

After that i would await the Starchild's approval or disbelief and if he disagreed or couldn't "compute" it i would start looking to the Starchild's solutions, because it would be the only way out.

[CaptainZaysh]

iakus wrote...

I advocate dealing with threats after once they establish themselves.  I do not advocate preemptive attacks based purely on "what ifs"

But this is a special situation, because after this threat is established we can no longer oppose it.  The emergence of the threat itself is the point of no return.  So do we prevent the threat emerging (my current position) or hope they choose not to exterminate us (your current position)?  I think the question it raises is fascinating, because without a Reaper-type solution it really does seem to me like the galaxy's future is likely to be synthetic.

iakus wrote...
If/then predictions are fine as long as they're simply planning for contingencies.  It's when the analyses come to the conclusion of "kill them all now"  that things get....problematic.

Yeah, but what's the alternative?  If a man had a tiny chance of exploding and destroying the planet every day he was alive, isn't there at least an arguable case for killing him?

iakus wrote...
So we should, what, not cure the genophage?

You probably won't be shocked to learn that I sabotaged the cure.

iakus wrote...
Everything has a weakness

They're not always exploitable.

[CaptainZaysh]

fr33stylez wrote...

See Reapers.

The Reapers don't seem to be superintelligences, though.  We don't actually see any evidence that they're much smarter than us.  I think they're frozen in their development, locked at a tech level slightly above our own.

[shodiswe]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

If technological singularities are possible, then it's something something that we will have to deal with in the future, and seeing as we probably won't be able to use synthesis, we're either f*cked regardless, or it's a surmountable problem.

Does that freak out anyone else?

I dont' see Synthesis happening least not in the way it was done in ME3. Though, cybernetic implants, genetic manipulation, it's kind of synthesis and it will likely happen. In that case a technological singularity wouldn't be a problem sice you would be part of it, it wouldn't be an outside force that left you behind in development.

[CaIIisto]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

See Reapers.

The Reapers don't seem to be superintelligences, though.  We don't actually see any evidence that they're much smarter than us.  I think they're frozen in their development, locked at a tech level slightly above our own.

In which case all's we need to do is slightly up our tech level. Given that the Reapers never got usurped by a superintelligence in over a billion years......

[shodiswe]

Bester76 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
What if organics become a threat to us? Like the Krogan or Salarians or Yagh? or Rachni? Or Turians?

To play devil's advocate - the Krogan and the Rachni did become a threat, and both were dealt with.....

Just saying.....

Yes, they were. After they proved that they needed to be dealt with. (Edit: This is the post I was waiting for  thanks for indulging me)

There is a difference between dealing with a problem that's kicking in your door and trying to kill you and killing someoen for being different and you fearing that they could bea problem some time in the future, then you are the probem that's kicking in someone elses door. In essence, you become the Krogan or Rachni.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 03:44 .

[fr33stylez]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

See Reapers.

The Reapers don't seem to be superintelligences, though.  We don't actually see any evidence that they're much smarter than us.  I think they're frozen in their development, locked at a tech level slightly above our own.

They were able to create a system of methodically wiping out organic civilizations for billions of years, uninterrupted, by leaving their advanced technology behind, technology that to date, no one in the ME universe can ever explain/comprehend. On top of this. they're able to alter the minds of any organic it meets, simply as a means to its end.

They seemed pretty superintelligent to me.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 04 avril 2013 - 03:49 .

[shodiswe]

fr33stylez wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

See Reapers.

The Reapers don't seem to be superintelligences, though.  We don't actually see any evidence that they're much smarter than us.  I think they're frozen in their development, locked at a tech level slightly above our own.

They were able to create a system of methodically wiping out organic civilizations for billions of years, uninterrupted, by leaving their advanced technology behind, technology that to date, no one in the ME universe can ever explain/comprehend. On top of this. they're able to alter the minds of any organic it meets, simply as a means to its end.

They seemed pretty superintelligent to me.

Even so the Leviathans seems to be even more advanced and they are Organic. They seem to have advanced their technology faster than the reapers during the last billion years.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 03:53 .

[The Night Mammoth]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why not? It has about as much basis as expecting the alternative to always happen.

Sure, but that's not my position.  My position is that each conflict has the potential to result either in synthetic or organic victory.  You and Steelcan seem to think that conflict can only result in organic victory.  Why?

I expected the result of the geth/quarian conflict to result in a victory for the quarians, but no, I don't expect it to occur the same in every potential instance. 

I still reject the idea that synthetic life will always be created, will always then rebel, and will always then attempt to wipe out all organic life, and will inevitably succeed. 

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Yes actually, but being more intelligent isn't a measure of power or intent. 

I'm not saying it is, simply that should a more intelligent alien species decide to wage war on us, we're kind of f**ked.  It seems to me we should do all we can to avoid getting into that situation.

It's a far cry from inevitible extinction though. 

[Iakus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

But this is a special situation, because after this threat is established we can no longer oppose it.  The emergence of the threat itself is the point of no return.  So do we prevent the threat emerging (my current position) or hope they choose not to exterminate us (your current position)?  I think the question it raises is fascinating, because without a Reaper-type solution it really does seem to me like the galaxy's future is likely to be synthetic.

Yeah, every situation is 'special'  That's how it starts...

iakus wrote...
Yeah, but what's the alternative?  If a man had a tiny chance of exploding and destroying the planet every day he was alive, isn't there at least an arguable case for killing him?

How do you know he will explode?

You probably won't be shocked to learn that I sabotaged the cure.

Somehow I'm not.

iakus wrote...
Everything has a weakness

They're not always exploitable.

They have been so far.

[Subject M]

The solution to conflict between synthetics and organics would of course follow the same pattern as peaceful co-existence in any other case: Symbiotic cooperation, mutual understanding and respect through interaction and some form of voluntary intermingling by parts of both groups ("synthesis or cybernetics), bridging the divide. Organics must learn not to act out of fear of what is different, and synthetics must understand why organics act like they do sometimes. Both groups need to have their need for resources satisfied, but this is not much of a problem since synthetics and organics does not need the same environments to survive.

[shodiswe]

Subject M wrote...

The solution to conflict between synthetics and organics would of course follow the same pattern as peaceful co-existence in any other case: Symbiotic cooperation, mutual understanding and respect through interaction and some form of voluntary intermingling by parts of both groups ("synthesis or cybernetics), bridging the divide. Organics must learn not to act out of fear of what is different, and synthetics must understand why organics act like they do sometimes. Both groups need to have their need for resources satisfied, but this is not much of a problem since synthetics and organics does not need the same environments to survive.

Sounds like wise words.

[CaIIisto]

shodiswe wrote...
Even so the Leviathans seems to be even more advanced and they are Organic. They seem to have advanced their technology faster than the reapers during the last billion years.

The vast majority of that time the Reapers have been hibernating in dark space. Plus they have no real incentive to actually develop their technology. The know almost exactly how each cycle will progress because the Citadel trap determines it. The only fly in the ointment this time around was that they managed to miss the remaining Protheans on Ilos in the previous cycle, who then sabotaged the trap. Had that not happened then this cycle would have gone pretty much exactly as the previous cycles had, with the relay to dark space being opened, the Reapers pouring through into Citadel space, the council being obliterated and the Reapers in complete control of the relay network within hours. After that, it's a matter of time until game over. The cycle ends with galactic civilization being reset to the stone age and the Reapers going back into dark space. 

During all of which the last few Leviathans remain cowering at the bottom of the ocean on some backwater world.....

Modifié par Bester76, 04 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Bester76 wrote...

In which case all's we need to do is slightly up our tech level. Given that the Reapers never got usurped by a superintelligence in over a billion years......

That's because they stopped each cycle before they achieved Reaper tech.  That was the whole point of their plan.

[CaptainZaysh]

fr33stylez wrote...

They were able to create a system of methodically wiping out organic civilizations for billions of years, uninterrupted, by leaving their advanced technology behind, technology that to date, no one in the ME universe can ever explain/comprehend. On top of this. they're able to alter the minds of any organic it meets, simply as a means to its end.

They seemed pretty superintelligent to me.

That's not what a superintelligence looks like.

Imagine: we create an AI that is smarter than us.  It AI creates an AI smarter than itself.  That AI in turn creates an AI smarter than itself.

And so on, with each generation widening the intelligence gap between synthetics and organics.  Instead of waiting millions of years to evolve through random mutation and natural selection, these things evolve by design as fast as a factory can produce them.

A superintelligence will be smarter than you and me in the same way you and I are smarter than worms.  And it will keep developing all the time.  And this is the enemy that some people are blithely assuring us will be friendly and, if it isn't, we'll just hit its weakness.  It's madness.

[CaIIisto]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
That's because they stopped each cycle before they achieved Reaper tech.  That was the whole point of their plan.

A plan that worked for over a billion years, ie. from a goal-achieving perspective, if not a moral one, an intelligent plan.

[dreamgazer]

An acoustic guitar and an uplifting chorus of "Puff the Magic Cyber-Dragon" should do it.

[CaptainZaysh]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I still reject the idea that synthetic life will always be created, will always then rebel, and will always then attempt to wipe out all organic life, and will inevitably succeed.

Given an infinite timescale that is in fact certain to happen.  Now a galactic timescale isn't an infinite one, but it's still an extremely high number.  None of the things you describe need to be more than infinitisemal possibilities to end up looking like certainties over a long enough time period.

The Night Mammoth wrote...
It's a far cry from inevitible extinction though. 

Again it is if you look at it over a long enough timescale.

[Iakus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I still reject the idea that synthetic life will always be created, will always then rebel, and will always then attempt to wipe out all organic life, and will inevitably succeed.

Given an infinite timescale that is in fact certain to happen.  Now a galactic timescale isn't an infinite one, but it's still an extremely high number.  None of the things you describe need to be more than infinitisemal possibilities to end up looking like certainties over a long enough time period.

I am not going to let monkeys at typewriters determine the destiny of the galaxy.

We've only seen one synthetic life form even try to create a "superintelligence":  namely the geth.  And they were determined to isolate themselves from organics, rather than attack them.  Even then their attempt failed spectacularly.