151 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You don't need to copy Skyrim exactly to recognize that there are aspects of it that can be useful in a different game. Skyrim was also an absurdly huge success, so it's a great example of "RPG gamers voting with your dollars." So we will look at it and go "This game seemed to resonate with a lot of fans (including a lot of staff). Are there aspects of it that could work for a BioWare game?"

I actually don't consider The Witcher 2 to be a very open game world, personally. The area around Flotsam is decently open, but I don't feel there's many areas that differ significantly from, say, the Korcari Wilds.

That said, we do look at The Witcher 2 (I know the QA team itself has had sessions in our theater where we looked at both Skyrim and The Witcher 2).

Oblivion and Fallout 3 were also hugely successful. I still think the reason behind Bethesda's continued success has little to do with their games being open world (or some other mechanic), and more to do with them making the games they themselves want to play. They have a vision and they know what they want to do going forward with each new game.

What I noticed right away after playing the ME and DA games was a lack of vision and a number of continuity problems in both gameplay and story. I think you guys just make it all up as you go along and that's why you run into trouble more often than not. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[David7204]

Skyrim doesn't have continuity problems because Skyrim doesn't have a plot. There are no meaningful or satisfying themes at all. That fact that players are so upset over Mass Effect's story is indicative that, the players, at least, had incredible vision for what they wanted and expected. Which wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a deserving story.

Modifié par David7204, 06 avril 2013 - 02:50 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David7204 wrote...

Skyrim doesn't have continuity problems because Skyrim doesn't have a plot. There are no meaningful or satisfying themes at all. That fact that people are so upset of Mass Effect's story is indicative that, the players, at least, had incredible vision for what they wanted and expected.

Skyrim does have a plot. You not being satisfied with it doesn't change that.

[XX-Pyro]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Skyrim doesn't have continuity problems because Skyrim doesn't have a plot. There are no meaningful or satisfying themes at all. That fact that people are so upset of Mass Effect's story is indicative that, the players, at least, had incredible vision for what they wanted and expected.

Skyrim does have a plot. You not being satisfied with it doesn't change that.

Agree very much so with this. TES and DA share plot strings in that they are both about the world, not each individual PC (though they are important as well). The difference is, Bethesda has built a more incredible world with their lore and learning more about it in each instillment of the game is the continuation of the plot. 

[David7204]

Skyrim's story just had utterly nothing redeeming about it. Not a single character worth caring about. Not a single interesting plot thread. As I said, no meaningful or satisfying themes. Things were poorly explained, poorly expanded on. Half the time I had no idea why I was doing the things I was doing while on the main questline. I just didn't care. I didn't care what happened to this world and these people. I still don't.

I remember how excited I was to hear Max von Sydow give that jaw dropping soliloquy in one of the previews he released, thinking he was going to be a great mentor character or something. And it turns out his only role is to constantly whine that the end of the world is coming.

The decision you make between the Blades and Greybeards is a textbook example of everything that's wrong with grey-grey choices in games.

A couple of quests I really hated, that you couldn't complete without doing something stupid. The quests in Markarth come to mind. Many of the others were just lame.

Modifié par David7204, 06 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[XX-Pyro]

David7204 wrote...

Skyrim's story just had utterly nothing redeeming about it. Not a single character worth caring about. Not a single interesting plot thread. As I said, no meaningful or satisfying themes. Things were poorly explained, poorly expanded on. Half the time I had no idea why I was doing the things I was doing while on the main questline.

I remember how excited I was to hear Max von Sydox give that great soliloquy in one of the previews he released, thinking he was going to be a great mentor character or something. And it turns out his only purpose role is to constantly whine that the end of the world is coming.

The decision you make between the Blades and Greybeards is a textbook example of everything that's wrong with grey-grey choices in games.

A couple of quests I really hated, that you couldn't complete without doing something stupid. The quests in Markarth come to mind.

I thought that while the Blades and Greybeards dilemma cold have been expanded upon, it was still better that neither side was inherently "right". It's the same thing as the mage-templar issue in DA, albeit a different issue at hand.

As for quests you can't complete without doing things that go against character, those are always the best ones in my opinion. In real life things don't always go your way, and I think forcing "good people" to do "bad things" is something that happens all too little.

[David7204]

I think it happens all too often. What's worse is that there's nearly always a smarter alternative that the player isn't allowed to do. Thankfully, Mass Effect does an outstanding job of averting that.

The best example in Skyrim is the "House of Horrors" quest. The Molag Bal one. You literally can't complete it in any form without killing an innocent priest for very stupid reasons. Basically, Molag Bal tells you to do it and you have to do it because he's Molag Bal. And there isn't a gun to your head or anything. (or knife to your throat, in this case.) Nevermind that there's an established order of Anti-Daedra preists in the area specifically devoted to that sort of thing.

It's even worse because starting the quest is inevitable. A friendly preist asks you to investigate a house, and no 'good' player is going to say no to that. The player has no idea they're either killing an innocent man for no reason or getting stuck with this quest in their journal for the rest of forever.

Modifié par David7204, 06 avril 2013 - 03:10 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, I am skeptical that we are looking to Skyrim for story reasons (I actually haven't played Skyrim, so I can't actually be certain I suppose).

[Elhanan]

David7204 wrote...

I think it happens all too often. What's worse is that there's nearly always a smarter alternative that the player isn't allowed to do. Thankfully, Mass Effect does an outstanding job of averting that.

The best example in Skyrim is the "House of Horrors" quest. The Molag Bal one. You literally can't complete it without killing an innocent priest for very stupid reasons. Basically, Molag Bal tells you to do it and you have to do it because he's Molag Bal. And there isn't a gun to your head or anything. (or knife to your throat, in this case.) Nevermind that there's an established order of Anti-Daedra preists in the area specifically devoted to that sort of thing. 

Incorrect. One may leave the House and do nothing, or return the priest to be imprisoned but leave with him alive; possibly other ways, too. And one also has the option of not ever entering the house at all. If a quest is presented that goes against the beliefs of the PC or Player, a majority of them can be skipped w/o upsetting the stories.

What I would like to see is more of those beautiful vistas; either like Skyrim or DA:O.

[XX-Pyro]

David7204 wrote...

I think it happens all too often. What's worse is that there's nearly always a smarter alternative that the player isn't allowed to do. Thankfully, Mass Effect does an outstanding job of averting that.

The best example in Skyrim is the "House of Horrors" quest. The Molag Bal one. You literally can't complete it in any form without killing an innocent priest for very stupid reasons. Basically, Molag Bal tells you to do it and you have to do it because he's Molag Bal. And there isn't a gun to your head or anything. (or knife to your throat, in this case.) Nevermind that there's an established order of Anti-Daedra preists in the area specifically devoted to that sort of thing.

It's even worse because starting the quest is inevitable. A friendly preist asks you to investigate a house, and no 'good' player is going to say no to that. The player has no idea they're either killing an innocent man for no reason or getting stuck with this quest in their journal for the rest of forever.

A good character wouldn't complete the whole quest, I don't understand your qualm. Does your PC have OCD where everyone who tells him to do something must be listened to?

and @Allan since I'm too lazy to multiquote I figured you wouldn't be looking at it under a narrative scope, but it's good to hear that you're looking at more open level design.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, I am skeptical that we are looking to Skyrim for story reasons (I actually haven't played Skyrim, so I can't actually be certain I suppose).

Well, I hope the rest of the staff has played it.

[David7204]

My 'qualm' is that it hangs around your journal forever? How difficult would it be to have an option to have the player character say "No, I don't want to do this" and have the quest end with no reward? Forcing the player to take the quest (which the game basically does, since there's no possible way a new player can guess they need to avoid it) and leave it unfinished forever is poor design.

Modifié par David7204, 06 avril 2013 - 03:25 .

[XX-Pyro]

David7204 wrote...

My 'qualm' is that it hangs around your journal forever? How difficult would it be to have an option to have the player character say "No, I don't want to do this" and have the quest end with no reward? Forcing the player to take the quest and leave it unfinished forever is poor design.

You aren't penalized for not doing it so this is a non-issue. It remains in your journal so you know you still have the option of doing it.

E. We'll just have to agree to disagree, as this is pretty off topic.

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 06 avril 2013 - 03:24 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David7204 wrote...

My 'qualm' is that it hangs around your journal forever? How difficult would it be to have an option to have the player character say "No, I don't want to do this" and have the quest end with no reward? Forcing the player (which the game basically does, since there's possibly way a new player can guess they need to avoid it) to take the quest and leave it unfinished forever is poor design.

I don't like having left over entries in my journal either. That is a legitimate criticism.

[Enigmatick]

Skyrim is infinitely less complex than previous TES games, it sacrificed everything it had just to get a immersive open world. I seriously don't understand why it is being put up on a pedestal for quest cotent here.

[David7204]

This is not a non-issue. A well written quest that the player has no real choice in starting does not force the player to do to do something completely stupid to finish it. Poor writing is not justifed just because it's optional. 

[XX-Pyro]

David7204 wrote...

This is not a non-issue. A well written quest that the player has no real choice in starting does not force the player to do to do something completely stupid to finish it. Poor writing is not justifed just because it's optional. 

It's also not poor writing because you think it's stupid, but like I said in my edit we'll have to agree to disagree 

[EpicBoot2daFace]

It's a design choice that you agree or disagree with. I would rather have the entry disappear if I decline a quest.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 06 avril 2013 - 03:28 .

[Enigmatick]

XX-Pyro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

This is not a non-issue. A well written quest that the player has no real choice in starting does not force the player to do to do something completely stupid to finish it. Poor writing is not justifed just because it's optional. 

It's also not poor writing because you think it's stupid, but like I said in my edit we'll have to agree to disagree 

It's definitely poor writing when a misguided child gives me a quest to assainate a grumpy old woman and my only two options are "Kill the woman so The Dark Brotherhood questline begins" or "stick your head in the sand and pretend that you never met the brat".

Modifié par Enigmatick, 06 avril 2013 - 03:31 .

[David7204]

Exactly. It would be better (although not great) if the quests were explicitly shown to be 'evil' quests beforehand. Like Oblivion did. Yeah, the Daedric quests are evil, but you'll never run into them unless you go to the shine and ask to commune with the Daedra. In Skyrim, there's bunches of quests that start off perfectly innocent and end up forcing you to kill someone or something for dumb reasons.

[Twisted Path]

There always seems to be a lot of hate for Skyrim on this message board, which I suppose I'll never understand. I think Skyrim's a great game that does exactly what it sets out to do, it's just that what it sets out to do is very different from the sorts of things that Bioware games are known for doing.

I do agree that the opening part of the Dark Brotherhood questline and some of the daedric quests were some of my least favorite parts of the game because there's no really Good (as in moral, upstanding, Neutral-good-goody-two-shoes,) way of doing the quests other than ignoring them. Mods that let you take ignored quests out of your quest book sort of fix that but that's a feature that really should have been in the vanilla game.

A dialogue option to say...flip off the Priestess of Boethia when she told you to bring someone up the shrine and sacrifice them would have also been nice. As is you just have to imagine that your character flipped them off as you walked away and ignored that quest forever.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 06 avril 2013 - 03:48 .

[XX-Pyro]

Enigmatick wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

This is not a non-issue. A well written quest that the player has no real choice in starting does not force the player to do to do something completely stupid to finish it. Poor writing is not justifed just because it's optional. 

It's also not poor writing because you think it's stupid, but like I said in my edit we'll have to agree to disagree 

It's definitely poor writing when a misguided child gives me a quest to assainate a grumpy old woman and my only two options are "Kill the woman so The Dark Brotherhood questline begins" or "stick your head in the sand and pretend that you never met the brat".

If presented with the option in real life (or heck in the game itself,) the logical options would be;

Do as he says.
Ignore him.
Report him to the authorities. <--- This would have made the quest better.

I don't see how it's poor writing not always giving a "good" choice though, I guess some people just like binary situations.

Also, taking quests out of the journal wouldn't have been a bad feature (in fact I'd welcome it), but by no means does it ruin the game or make it bad by not having it.

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 06 avril 2013 - 03:47 .

[Enigmatick]

There's no "choice" within that quest though there is: do the quest, or don't do the quest. You're right though poor writing was a poor choice of words on my part. Although Skyrim has really poor writing in other departments.

[David7204]

Where's the option to convince him it's a bad idea?
Where's the option to pretend to do it to satisfy him?
Where's the option to side with her?

This is what I was talking about earlier.

[Enigmatick]

David7204 wrote...

Where's the option to convince him it's a bad idea?
Where's the option to pretend to do it to satisfy him?
Where's the option to side with her?

This is what I was talking about earlier.

Buddy, there is huge lack of options and GIANT disconnect between story and game mechanics in Skyrim. But that's off-topic, so we should stop.