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[Shampoohorn]

TightestThong has a nice melee build as well. Thread.


A number of posters have mentioned his poor power synergy, and I agree a bit.  But the flaws I see are a bit different.

1) He suffers in comparison to the Havoc and Ghost.  Stim packs are boss (OP, etc) and really those two kits shine as weapon platforms.  Additionally Havoc Strike is nicely complemented by cryoblast and by stim packs, and Cloak pretty much synergizes with every power it's paired with.  The closest the saboteur gets to this is Sabotage + Homing Grenade, which gives him a nice tech burst combo but is slow and dodgeable.

2) Each of his powers are inferior to similar powers.  Homing Grenades are arguably the worst grenades.  His pet is possibly better than the decoy.  \\  And sabotage is great but doesn't have as clear cut benefits as ED or Overload.  Most kits have at least one power that's really strong.  The saboteur doesn't.

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 05 avril 2013 - 12:01 .

[ThatOddGuy]

Cyonan wrote...

ThatOddGuy wrote...

Also, I'll mention here for those who are to lazy to click my link:

Sabotage -> M-11 Suppressor

How does that make the Saboteur excellent though?

Would that setup not also work with Reave, Energy Drain, Overload, or any hitscan power that does force for stagger?

In theory, the suppressor is amazing. In practice, they go hand in hand.

I'll note that my Drell Adept is pull-less and spec'd for weapon damage, but still uses Reave-Cluster for mopping up crowds and burst damage to bosses. Moving on: I tried a Suppressor on him with Cranial, Mag Size, Warp Ammo, Pistol Amp... it was thoroughly disturbing how insanely bad I embarrased my team on that run.

Reave and Incinerate are both very good stagger powers, but the enemy doesn't stand perfectly still like with Sabotage. The only reason this matters is because I'm a console scrub, and I'm too cheap to use Thermal Packs.

Energy Drain and Overload I don't like as much for headshot-specific applications because of the unpredictable reactions. Sabotage's first stun is always the same. It's the backfire that does what Energy Drain does (hunch forward or lean back).


With the Saboteur, it really becomes a playstyle thing. That Armiger dodge (for those who are used to it) is so insanely perfect with this build/playstyle.

And I use a Hurricane beside my Suppressor for bosses.

[lightswitch]

I've never really understood the 'no synergy' thing either.

To me the thing about the Saboteur is he's the only Turian who doesn't have a way to increase weapon damage. If only Tech Vulnerability worked on ammo power damage or something.

He's fine against mooks, he's got good CC and all, but I feel really underwhelmed when he's got three brutes coming at him. If the turret automatically targeted whatever I'm shooting at I might feel better about it.

Btw, back when I was using the Rocket turret I'm also pretty sure it was detonating Tech Bursts for me.

[Cyonan]

ThatOddGuy wrote...
In theory, the suppressor is amazing. In practice, they go hand in hand.

I'll note that my Drell Adept is pull-less and spec'd for weapon damage, but still uses Reave-Cluster for mopping up crowds and burst damage to bosses. Moving on: I tried a Suppressor on him with Cranial, Mag Size, Warp Ammo, Pistol Amp... it was thoroughly disturbing how insanely bad I embarrased my team on that run.

Reave and Incinerate are both very good stagger powers, but the enemy doesn't stand perfectly still like with Sabotage. The only reason this matters is because I'm a console scrub, and I'm too cheap to use Thermal Packs.

Energy Drain and Overload I don't like as much for headshot-specific applications because of the unpredictable reactions. Sabotage's first stun is always the same. It's the backfire that does what Energy Drain does (hunch forward or lean back).


With the Saboteur, it really becomes a playstyle thing. That Armiger dodge (for those who are used to it) is so insanely perfect with this build/playstyle.

And I use a Hurricane beside my Suppressor for bosses.

but if you played the Drell like that a lot you could get as good as you are on the Saboteur, and you'd have better grenades.

Yes, it comes down to personal preference, but I don't know that we should be breaking out the claims of excellence when so many other kits can do the stagger -> headshot trick, and the FQI can use the exact same ability while boosting damage with Tactical Cloak.

My personal experience with Sabotage is that it lacks force for the initial stagger on a lot of the Gold level mobs without the added force/damage from Tactical Cloak that the FQI gives it.

[Invisible Juggernaut]

ThatOddGuy wrote...

Also, I'll mention here for those who are to lazy to click my link:

Sabotage -> M-11 Suppressor

I am now willing to try this character because of that one statement. 

[lightswitch]

Also, are people really having problems with Homing Grenades being dodged? In my experience this happens very rarely. The double stun from Sabotage should be keeping targets locked in place. Despite what everyone says HGs don't have more than a couple seconds travel time except at the longest ranges, and I've always thought they were less likely to be dodged than normal projectiles powers because they can turn more quickly.

[Happy Shepard]

lightswitch wrote...

Also, are people really having problems with Homing Grenades being dodged? In my experience this happens very rarely. The double stun from Sabotage should be keeping targets locked in place. Despite what everyone says HGs don't have more than a couple seconds travel time except at the longest ranges, and I've always thought they were less likely to be dodged than normal projectiles powers because they can turn more quickly.

They're slower than most projectile powers but i've rarely seen enemies dodge HGs. The only problem is that Phantoms and Banshees usually put up their hand/bubble of denial due to the slow travel time.

Modifié par Happy Shepard, 05 avril 2013 - 12:28 .

[DullahansXMark]

Happy Shepard wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Also, are people really having problems with Homing Grenades being dodged? In my experience this happens very rarely. The double stun from Sabotage should be keeping targets locked in place. Despite what everyone says HGs don't have more than a couple seconds travel time except at the longest ranges, and I've always thought they were less likely to be dodged than normal projectiles powers because they can turn more quickly.

They're slower than most projectile powers but i've rarely seen enemies dodge HGs. The only problem is that Phantoms and Banshees usually put up their hand/bubble of denial due to the slow travel time. 

Which can actually come in handy for Phantoms. The split grenade has a chance of flying off and hitting something else, and the Bubble of Doom gives her a bigger hitbox. Next step is to unleash hell on her via the Argus.

Win-win. (You can also use the Turret for this, but it's less reliable)

[lightswitch]

Wait...Tech Vulnerability debuffs Fire Explosions too, right?

[kipac]

I like him too.
He's much fun to use than TGI and Havoc to me.
Sabotage also does AOE damage I believe. Kinda like a submission net's electric field, the shock moves on to the next target.

[DullahansXMark]

lightswitch wrote...

Wait...Tech Vulnerability debuffs Fire Explosions too, right?

It'd be weird if it didn't. Then again, they don't debuff for Homing Grenades, either.

[Happy Shepard]

DullahansXMark wrote...

Happy Shepard wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Also, are people really having problems with Homing Grenades being dodged? In my experience this happens very rarely. The double stun from Sabotage should be keeping targets locked in place. Despite what everyone says HGs don't have more than a couple seconds travel time except at the longest ranges, and I've always thought they were less likely to be dodged than normal projectiles powers because they can turn more quickly.

They're slower than most projectile powers but i've rarely seen enemies dodge HGs. The only problem is that Phantoms and Banshees usually put up their hand/bubble of denial due to the slow travel time. 

Which can actually come in handy for Phantoms. The split grenade has a chance of flying off and hitting something else, and the Bubble of Doom gives her a bigger hitbox. Next step is to unleash hell on her via the Argus.

Win-win. (You can also use the Turret for this, but it's less reliable)

I might give this tactic a try. I usually do TBs on nearby enemies for AoE damage with the TB and the split grenade and then do another TB on her while she's dancing. Also, she doesn't always put up her barrier if you fire the grenade into the ground or wall close to her (a bit unreliable though).

[lightswitch]

DullahansXMark wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Wait...Tech Vulnerability debuffs Fire Explosions too, right?

It'd be weird if it didn't. Then again, they don't debuff for Homing Grenades, either.

If that's the case...his ammo primed explosions are stronger than regular 6+6 explosions. I think.

hmm.

[DullahansXMark]

Happy Shepard wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Happy Shepard wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Also, are people really having problems with Homing Grenades being dodged? In my experience this happens very rarely. The double stun from Sabotage should be keeping targets locked in place. Despite what everyone says HGs don't have more than a couple seconds travel time except at the longest ranges, and I've always thought they were less likely to be dodged than normal projectiles powers because they can turn more quickly.

They're slower than most projectile powers but i've rarely seen enemies dodge HGs. The only problem is that Phantoms and Banshees usually put up their hand/bubble of denial due to the slow travel time. 

Which can actually come in handy for Phantoms. The split grenade has a chance of flying off and hitting something else, and the Bubble of Doom gives her a bigger hitbox. Next step is to unleash hell on her via the Argus.

Win-win. (You can also use the Turret for this, but it's less reliable)

I might give this tactic a try. I usually do TBs on nearby enemies for AoE damage with the TB and the split grenade and then do another TB on her while she's dancing. Also, she doesn't always put up her barrier if you fire the grenade into the ground or wall close to her (a bit unreliable though).

If I remember correctly, I think another thing you can do is aim into the air (not too high) with Homing Grenades and then fire. Because of how target tracking for Split Grenades works, if done right at least one of the grenades (both if only the Phantom is nearby) should sail right into her and still harm her.

Won't work with regular Homing Grenades though. They track whatever you're aiming at.

[Grun7mas7er]

Argus, Dullahan? what r u some kinda hipster?
lol. I'll give it a go.

[lightswitch]

Also, just occured to me the armor damage mitigation in evo 6a on HGs might help out the AP turret? Just a thought

[DullahansXMark]

lightswitch wrote...

Also, just occured to me the armor damage mitigation in evo 6a on HGs might help out the AP turret? Just a thought

I never thought about that!

Cyonan, you have a job. Get to it

Grun7mas7er wrote...

Argus, Dullahan? what r u some kinda hipster?
lol. I'll give it a go.

A little The Argus actually surprised me, though. I remember that it was a bad gun once. But apparently the buffs it got really helped, because it really packs a punch now. A very pleasant surprise, to say the least.

Plus, it helps keep you in proper fighting distance because of its accuracy. In a way, it's actually the perfect gun for him.

Modifié par DullahansXMark, 05 avril 2013 - 12:58 .

[Steppdaddy2]

This sounds like an awesome way to play this character.

Kudos!

[Cyonan]

DullahansXMark wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Also, just occured to me the armor damage mitigation in evo 6a on HGs might help out the AP turret? Just a thought

I never thought about that!

Cyonan, you have a job. Get to it

Armour sundering does help the Sentry Turret's main attack.

It wont help the AP round however since that already ignores armour, but it will help the other shot that is affected by armour.

[Miniditka77]

DullahansXMark wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

What if I told you he's one of my best classes? I can play him much better than a GI, than an AIU (yeah, I went there), than a Havoc... the list goes on.

He's not a "just4fun" class for me, he's actually one of my go-to "I'm gonna kick some ass" classes. He happens to be one of the most fun of those classes, too.

So yes, to me he is an excellent class. Just like the FQE is an excellent class for M1A2 Abrams Tank (which I'll never understand, but I don't have to. I've seen him roll.)

I would say you are either lying, or you haven't practiced enough with the GI or the AIU (probably the latter).

But what about the Havoc? He's one of my favorite classes to use, and I still use this one better.

The Havoc is a better class than the Saboteur.  I wouldn't put him in the top tier, but he's still better.  And if you are better with the Saboteur, it means you haven't practiced enough with the Havoc.

I am awesome with the Justicar.  It's one of my favorite classes to use, and I am good at it because I have used it a ton.  I know that if I used the GI as much as I used the Justicar, I'd do much better with the GI though.

I've played 400 Waves with the Havoc. I've only recently reached 200 with the Saboteur

The Havoc is a little bit harder to use than simply Sabotage-headshot-repeat, maybe with a couple of Homing Grenades mixed in.  Plus, as I said, the Havoc isn't one of the better classes on the game.

All you're establishing is that you are good at using the Saboteur, not that the Saboteur is a good class.

[Miniditka77]

Cyonan wrote...

My personal experience with Sabotage is that it lacks force for the initial stagger on a lot of the Gold level mobs without the added force/damage from Tactical Cloak that the FQI gives it.

Sabotage doesn't really "stagger" like other staggering powers do.  It just causes the enemy to freeze in place for a fraction of a second.  That fraction of a second is plenty enough to get a good headshot (or several) in though.  And I think it's actually better than the stagger animation that most staggering powers have.  Overload in particular - all of its stagger animations move the enemy's head and make it more difficult to hit.

[Cyonan]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

My personal experience with Sabotage is that it lacks force for the initial stagger on a lot of the Gold level mobs without the added force/damage from Tactical Cloak that the FQI gives it.

Sabotage doesn't really "stagger" like other staggering powers do.  It just causes the enemy to freeze in place for a fraction of a second.  That fraction of a second is plenty enough to get a good headshot (or several) in though.  And I think it's actually better than the stagger animation that most staggering powers have.  Overload in particular - all of its stagger animations move the enemy's head and make it more difficult to hit.

My experience is it doesn't even do that.

[TwinWolf954]

I fully specced into fitness for health and shields (I don't get Cyclonic Mods on a regular basis), and skipped Sentry Turret.

Full passives set for weapon damage (I think I took 5a for power damage, though), w/ extra tech damage and Homing Grenades that split and deal damage over time. Tech Bursts on demand.

He's not my favorite, but I do enjoy bringing him out from time to time.

[Titus Thongger]

try the venom shotgun with him. it's like a super falcon for applying tech bursts. stick an omni blade on it for melee madness

[DullahansXMark]

Titus Thongger wrote...

try the venom shotgun with him. it's like a super falcon for applying tech bursts. stick an omni blade on it for melee madness

I wish I could. I don't have a Venom though.