359 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
I fail to see how having a single character providing a large amount of exposition is a sign of bad planning, there's absolutly no connection here.

For one thing, it's better to exposit major plot points in slices so the player has time to digest each point. For another thing, it's a prime example of telling and not showing, which is fundamentally less compelling for the person experiencing the story.

A relevant comparison is movies that have plot twists at the end; some throw in a recap of the whole movie so you can work out how it fits in, while others don't need it because they'd added the relevant plot points and foreshadowing earlier in the story for everything to automatically click. Guess which version screenwriters, critics, and directors praise?

This is done throughout the game.  The bulk of important information that Vigil has cannot be peppered throughout the galaxy, as the Reapers would have found Ilos.  When some of what Vigil tells us occurs, the Reapers have already gone back to dark space.  There was no where else to put stuff to be found.  It's not like we flew around blind for the entire game, just part of it.  We learn quite a bit on each of the main plot worlds as we progress.  Each major stop fills in pieces of the puzzle.  You can literally skip 3/4 of what Vigil has to say, and get everything you didn't already piece together.  So I don't think it's excessive.

[KingZayd]

robertthebard wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
I fail to see how having a single character providing a large amount of exposition is a sign of bad planning, there's absolutly no connection here.

For one thing, it's better to exposit major plot points in slices so the player has time to digest each point. For another thing, it's a prime example of telling and not showing, which is fundamentally less compelling for the person experiencing the story.

A relevant comparison is movies that have plot twists at the end; some throw in a recap of the whole movie so you can work out how it fits in, while others don't need it because they'd added the relevant plot points and foreshadowing earlier in the story for everything to automatically click. Guess which version screenwriters, critics, and directors praise?

This is done throughout the game.  The bulk of important information that Vigil has cannot be peppered throughout the galaxy, as the Reapers would have found Ilos.  When some of what Vigil tells us occurs, the Reapers have already gone back to dark space.  There was no where else to put stuff to be found.  It's not like we flew around blind for the entire game, just part of it.  We learn quite a bit on each of the main plot worlds as we progress.  Each major stop fills in pieces of the puzzle.  You can literally skip 3/4 of what Vigil has to say, and get everything you didn't already piece together.  So I don't think it's excessive.

If you skipping any of the Vigil conversation you're playing it wrong
That along with the Sovereign conversation are some of the best moments in the game(s)

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

robertthebard wrote...
We learn quite a bit on each of the main plot worlds as we progress.

We just have really different ideas about how ME1's plot progressed, then. To me it was like watching a snail crawl as this "detective" story played out. Of course, having only played it twice I don't proclaim myself an "expert" on ME1's story. The confrontation with Saren should have come earlier in the game, leading to you finding out about Sovereign being a Reaper earlier, which opens the door to moving some of the Vigil conversation to earlier in the game as well via Prothean beacon.

[robertthebard]

CronoDragoon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
We learn quite a bit on each of the main plot worlds as we progress.

We just have really different ideas about how ME1's plot progressed, then. To me it was like watching a snail crawl as this "detective" story played out. Of course, having only played it twice I don't proclaim myself an "expert" on ME1's story. The confrontation with Saren should have come earlier in the game, leading to you finding out about Sovereign being a Reaper earlier, which opens the door to moving some of the Vigil conversation to earlier in the game as well via Prothean beacon.

The thing you're forgetting here is that Vigil was an isolated VI.  The information we glean from him, most of it we already have, was stored after they went dark, which means they weren't communicating with the rest of the galaxy.  The rest of what he has to tell us happened after the war, barring having to triage power for essential personnel.  The scientists that survived went to the Citadel, sabotaged the Keepers, and then...  I'm not sure what comes next, but there was no tech left anywhere for them to use to go anywhere, side effect of the Reapers Harvesting everyone, so they either used the Conduit in reverse and died on Ilos, or died on the Citadel.  What information could be distributed throughout the galaxy had already been distributed.

[KingZayd]

CronoDragoon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
We learn quite a bit on each of the main plot worlds as we progress.

We just have really different ideas about how ME1's plot progressed, then. To me it was like watching a snail crawl as this "detective" story played out. Of course, having only played it twice I don't proclaim myself an "expert" on ME1's story. The confrontation with Saren should have come earlier in the game, leading to you finding out about Sovereign being a Reaper earlier, which opens the door to moving some of the Vigil conversation to earlier in the game as well via Prothean beacon.

Why? At the beginning it was all about finding and stopping Saren. ME1's plot was great.

[CronoDragoon]

KingZayd wrote...

Why? At the beginning it was all about finding and stopping Saren. ME1's plot was great.

It was okay. I liked the Reaper backstory. The initial Saren plotline is littered with contrivances. The Conduit ends up being pretty underwhelming. Indoctrination takes too long to exposit. But like I said, it's still the best plotting of the trilogy.

[PSUHammer]

All three games have their issues with story & plot. But, I think most people can agree they rank near the top in the gaming world for characters/setting/story.

Personally, I loved the story and plotline of ME1 but hated the game mechanics (inventory, animations, combat, etc.).

How many times did people make a fist and slap it into the palm of their other hand in conversation in ME1? It was getting funny by the end of the game as you know that was one of the few animations that the came up with to use when someone was making a stern point.

[Toolbox 24]

PSUHammer wrote...

All three games have their issues with story & plot. But, I think most people can agree they rank near the top in the gaming world for characters/setting/story.

Personally, I loved the story and plotline of ME1 but hated the game mechanics (inventory, animations, combat, etc.).

How many times did people make a fist and slap it into the palm of their other hand in conversation in ME1? It was getting funny by the end of the game as you know that was one of the few animations that the came up with to use when someone was making a stern point.

Either that or to turn their head the left (stage left, screen right) and walk away. Too many times...

[robertthebard]

Toolbox 24 wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

All three games have their issues with story & plot. But, I think most people can agree they rank near the top in the gaming world for characters/setting/story.

Personally, I loved the story and plotline of ME1 but hated the game mechanics (inventory, animations, combat, etc.).

How many times did people make a fist and slap it into the palm of their other hand in conversation in ME1? It was getting funny by the end of the game as you know that was one of the few animations that the came up with to use when someone was making a stern point.

Either that or to turn their head the left (stage left, screen right) and walk away. Too many times...

Yeah, sometimes that animation made me want to shoot 'em.  Natural Born Renegade, what can I say?

[CronoDragoon]

PSUHammer wrote...
How many times did people make a fist and slap it into the palm of their other hand in conversation in ME1? It was getting funny by the end of the game as you know that was one of the few animations that the came up with to use when someone was making a stern point.

Yeah, in ME2 what stands out is the animation where you lean back on one leg, combined with either arms crossed or scratching your face.

[Xilizhra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...
How many times did people make a fist and slap it into the palm of their other hand in conversation in ME1? It was getting funny by the end of the game as you know that was one of the few animations that the came up with to use when someone was making a stern point.

Yeah, in ME2 what stands out is the animation where you lean back on one leg, combined with either arms crossed or scratching your face.

Coming back with a vengeance in ME3. The problem is that it's a rather long and somewhat artificial movement that people in-game do far more often than IRL.

[PSUHammer]

At least by ME2 and, even more so, ME3 they varied up the animations. ME3 was pretty good in terms of game rendered character acting. Lipsyncing issues and exorcist eyeballs, aside.

[CronoDragoon]

One animation I've always found adorable is when people wring their hands when nervous or uncertain. Examples: Tali in her loyalty mission, Liara asking Shepard if the Crucible is worth a shot.

[PSUHammer]

So, Liara's boob job turned out well between ME1 and ME2.  I wonder when she got them done?

Modifié par PSUHammer, 11 avril 2013 - 03:40 .

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sure. Now I'll ask again, what about ME's plot precludes more of the info dump at the end from being shifted to earlier in the game?

Wat? most relevant information has been given by the time we meet Vigil.

CronoDragoon wrote...
The relevance of the show vs. tell dichotomy? One takes actual work and planning and is more rewarding, the other is lazy and results in uneven plots. Even occasionally boredom, though probably not in this case.

Such bias, you've really fallen flat now, if you have some awkard personal standard based on equally awkard rules, then go ahead, but please don't proclaim things to be true when they aren't.

CronoDragoon wrote...
The scale makes sense because the more work the player/reader/viewer does in his/her head connecting the dots, the more involved they are in the story and the more revelatory plot points feel.

This is true, which is exactly what ME1's plot did, be cautious however, that I as the player shouldn't have to headcannon entire segments of the plot in order to get the narrative to make sense.

Modifié par Fixers0, 11 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...
Such bias, you've really fallen flat now, if you have some awkard personal standard based on equally awkard rules, then go ahead, but please don't proclaim things to be true when they aren't.

Bias? For believing in a fundamental rule of storytelling?

Okay, sure, I'm biased. Not sure against what exactly since I proclaimed ME1 to have the best plot of the series. Against info dumps? Sure, I'll wear that bias badge.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 avril 2013 - 04:04 .

[KingZayd]

PSUHammer wrote...

So, Liara's boob job turned out well between ME1 and ME2.  I wonder when she got them done?

Isn't she basically going through puberty?

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Bias? For believing in a fundamental rule of storytelling?

It's not.

You proclaim showing inherintly takes work and planning, indicting telling does not, this is fundamentally false.

You proclaim showing inherintly is more rewarding, indicating telling is not, this is fundamentally false.

You proclaim telling is inherintly lazy, indicating that showing can't be, this is fundamentally false.

You proclaim telling inheritnly results in uneven plots, indicating that showing can't do it, this is fundamentally false.

You proclaim showing will always be inherintly better then telling, regardless of other factors, this is fundamentally false.

CronoDragoon wrote...
Okay, sure, I'm biased.

Yes, you quite are.

Modifié par Fixers0, 11 avril 2013 - 04:06 .

[PSUHammer]

Why are you guys arguing over subjective taste in storytelling? Don't have to put each other down because of it!

[CronoDragoon]

PSUHammer wrote...

Why are you guys arguing over subjective taste in storytelling? Don't have to put each other down because of it!

To be fair, it's because I am asserting that it isn't subjective to prefer this one particular style of storytelling over another. If there is a better way to portray information than an info dump, then an info dump shouldn't be used. I believe this applies to ME1's Vigil convo, he doesn't. So it goes.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 avril 2013 - 04:37 .

[PSUHammer]

I understand there is a disagreement, which makes for good discussion. Just don't want to see the points marginalized by personal swipes.

Modifié par PSUHammer, 11 avril 2013 - 04:44 .

[robertthebard]

KingZayd wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

So, Liara's boob job turned out well between ME1 and ME2.  I wonder when she got them done?

Isn't she basically going through puberty?

Not to be overly snarky, but pay attention to Ken and Gabby's conversations.  I'm pretty sure the dialog takes place in 3, but Ken asks Gabby if she thinks that Asari just get more and more ample as they age.  There must be a concrete reason for him to feel this way, and he does list off a few examples.

[robertthebard]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

Why are you guys arguing over subjective taste in storytelling? Don't have to put each other down because of it!

To be fair, it's because I am asserting that it isn't subjective to prefer this one particular style of storytelling over another. If there is a better way to portray information than an info dump, then an info dump shouldn't be used. I believe this applies to ME1's Vigil convo, he doesn't. So it goes.

Look at 3a here.

It actually is subjective, taking my meaning directly from that definition, because it is perceived to be that way.  You perceive it to be better one way, somebody else may perceive it to be better another way, thus, since it is perception that matters, it's subjective.  Nobody's right, and nobody's wrong, you just have different perceptions on what is better/good etc etc.

[PSUHammer]

robertthebard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

So, Liara's boob job turned out well between ME1 and ME2.  I wonder when she got them done?

Isn't she basically going through puberty?

Not to be overly snarky, but pay attention to Ken and Gabby's conversations.  I'm pretty sure the dialog takes place in 3, but Ken asks Gabby if she thinks that Asari just get more and more ample as they age.  There must be a concrete reason for him to feel this way, and he does list off a few examples.

Yes, I remember that conversation.  I read that one of the writers put that in as a responce to the people who pointed out Liara's breast change from ME1 to ME2.  The debate, at the time, was over whether they did it intentionally to sex up the game and increase sales.  It's possible.  It is the same reason ME3 has obvious camera angles specifically focused on Miranda's ass.

Modifié par PSUHammer, 11 avril 2013 - 05:50 .

[Jonata]

PSUHammer wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

So, Liara's boob job turned out well between ME1 and ME2.  I wonder when she got them done?

Isn't she basically going through puberty?

Not to be overly snarky, but pay attention to Ken and Gabby's conversations.  I'm pretty sure the dialog takes place in 3, but Ken asks Gabby if she thinks that Asari just get more and more ample as they age.  There must be a concrete reason for him to feel this way, and he does list off a few examples.

Yes, I remember that conversation.  I read that one of the writers put that in as a responce to the people who pointed out Liara's breast change from ME1 to ME2.  The debate, at the time, was over whether they did it intentionally to sex up the game and increase sales.  It's possible.  It is the same reason ME3 has obvious camera angles specifically focused on Miranda's ass.

Actually Ken makes a perfectly logical assumption based on the fact that both Samara and Benezia are (/were) "elderly" Matriarchs and both had quite huge breasts. There's no mention in Liara's breast growing up and I don't think they were necessairly pointing out that feature. 

(my opinion is the character design and models sculpt evolved towards more dynamic forms from ME1 to ME3 and the 'breast enhancement' is just a side effect of that evolution)