194 réponses à ce sujet

[happy_daiz]

How about a mixture of a few things?

Assassin's Creed - for the hidden blade and rope darts.
Dragon's Dogma - for the magick bows (that's right, Prince, no bow strings on those!)
Kingdoms of Amalur - Chakrams.

And I seem to prefer rogue types...

[Rawgrim]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

DA][ Combat for the mages.

Slightly sped up DA:O for Warriors.

Dragon's Dogma for Rogues.

This. Minus the Dragon`s Dogma bit. Too "anime-hero".

[wsandista]

Project Eternity. Or a revised version of the DAO rules, preferably with an emphasis on formation and tactics rather than ability spamming.

[Rawgrim]

wsandista wrote...

Project Eternity. Or a revised version of the DAO rules, preferably with an emphasis on formation and tactics rather than ability spamming.

This.

[Wulfram]

If imported wholesale, probably BG2.

Though DA2's basic system really isn't too bad. Needs better encounter design (not waves everywhere), enemies that are more similar to the PC with talents and stuff and sensible friendly fire.

[lil yonce]

relhart wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Combat in Dragon's Dogma is pretty sweet. I love clambering on enemies.

The advanced hybrid vocations are amazing. I hope Bioware is taking a look at them.

I've not quite got that far, I got the game recently and am trying to max out Strider before I move on to Assassin.

Hybridization of classes is neat, but not my top priority. I'll be happy as long as the starting classes remain fairly distinct from each other. My biggest gripe with DA:O was how shortchanged the Rogue was compared to the other classes.

I Min/Max the stat growths for certain builds. At lvl 9 I switched to an advanced vocation from Strider. Assassin offered specialized stat growths, greater weapon versatility, special augments, and cooler skills IMO. The basic vocations share some skills with the advanced vocations but they do have quite a few unique skills and augments of their own. They are absolutely solid vocations. I think the Strider vocation is better than the DA:O Rogue because you can be effective and have with both daggers and bows. Orgins encourages you to focus on one or the other. But I'm drawn in by the customization factor of the advanced vocations. Mystic Knight and Magick Archer FTW.

Mystic Knight and Magick archer were my two favorites as well, I was also partial to my dagger+shield assassin though.

That's a good a example of the vocation versatility. The Assassin vocation can daggers and bows but they can also use a shield and longsword or a shield and dagger. The Fighter vocation uses a shield and longsword but the Assassin uses different, very assassin-y skills like powder charge and enhanced response.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rawgrim wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Project Eternity. Or a revised version of the DAO rules, preferably with an emphasis on formation and tactics rather than ability spamming.

This.

Word. 

[Sol Downer]

Devil May Cry 4!

"Trick-Sword-Trick-Sword-Guard-Dark-Gun-Trick-Sword!" 999 hit combos through the roof.

[Battlebloodmage]

Somewhere between Kingdom Hearts and Dragon's Dogma.

[Ziegrif]

Kingdom Hearts.

I love that gameplay style.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 05 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[Enigmatick]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Project Eternity. Or a revised version of the DAO rules, preferably with an emphasis on formation and tactics rather than ability spamming.

This.

Word. 

I'd usually agree but we haven't actually seen any Project Eternity combat. 

[Rawgrim]

Enigmatick wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Project Eternity. Or a revised version of the DAO rules, preferably with an emphasis on formation and tactics rather than ability spamming.

This.

Word. 

I'd usually agree but we haven't actually seen any Project Eternity combat. 

True. But they have said its going to be almost identical to the combat in the infinity engine games.

[Enigmatick]

^Not to go off on a tangent here, but is what's the reason why haven't seen any gameplay again? I like seeing them play Arcanum as much as the next guy but come on.

[Rawgrim]

Enigmatick wrote...

^Not to go off on a tangent here, but is what's the reason why haven't seen any gameplay again? I like seeing them play Arcanum as much as the next guy but come on.

They have only just started working on the game. Last I heard they were working on the lore and the gameworld alot. Its just way too early to show any gameplay, I guess.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Temple of Elemental Evil

or, based on the gameplay video, Wasteland 2.

If we must stick with real-time-with-pause, then I'd say use the NWN system. I loved the dance of death animations.

[imbs]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd disagree. The WoW-ification of RPG combat over the past five years has been the single worst thing for RPGs to ever have occured.

Let's review:

All spells/skills are on a (short) cooldown - This leads to every RPG game in existence now to having your most powerful offensive spells spammable throughout combat. This is exactly DA2's biggest fallacy, especially with mages - unleash your nukes, then kite while waiting for a cooldown. It is really weak encounter design and it also leads to always using your most powerful skills all the time. Compare that to even a more streamlined RPG like Final Fantasy, where most of the game you use standard attacks and only use your more powerful ones during boss battles or extremely difficult fights. Using the most powerful skills at every opportunity means you use the exact same tactics, all the time, in every fight. It leads to stale combat.

class Balancing - every class has to be equally effective in combat, otherwise no one will play them in an MMO. This means that a tank must be a tank but not a tank that is any more utilitarian than the healer is in the healer role. No one class playing can be any more powerful or helpful in combat than any other one... which is silly. A warrior class should be dominant in combat. A mage class should have the potential to be much more destructive or much more beneficial through the use of buffs, but also be a limited reserve situation, where mana constraints or Vancian casting prevents the mage from unleashing hell in the form of Firestorm and have it do about as much damage as a warriors pommel strike.

Non-Combat Skills - A rogue must be able to deal the same DPS as a warrioir... otherwise, why play as a rogue? This mentality from MMOs is toxic to the RPG experience. A rogue should be able to do a number of things, such as placing traps, picking locks, using stealth skills, using sleight of hand skills, being able to detect various secret doors or similar constructs. The rogue does not need to have the exact same value in combat as the warrior - becuase there is MUCH MORE TO AN RPG THAN COMBAT. Instead, WoW focuses entirely on combat, to the exclusion of everything else. And this is detrimental to every other RPG out there, who feels they must copy this formula or be labeled as "archaic."

For what it does, WoW does have a good amount of builds, skills and options for combat. But the fact that it is solely, 100%, ENTIRELY all about making a class and build that focuses on combat and the highest DPS possible is absolutely toxic to any sort of comprehensive RPG system. Because now an entire generation of gamers has been raised on the concept that if a mage can't cast their most powerful spell every 20 seconds, then the game is boring, or that a rogue should always be on the front lines doing the highest DPS, instead of hiding in the shadows and performing a backstab maybe only once or twice a fight.

I agree with some of your points m8, although some of your issues are avoidable. In particular the class balance thing - it's not nearly as important to be perfectly balanced in an RPG, even if it has MP elements, and I would argue that'd be a problem regardless of how combat is.

DA2's cooldown system is also not really like wow's. Every single spell has a cooldown iirc in DA2. Mage combat was terrible I agree. You had a bunch of ridiculously strong attacks all on 30 second~ cooldowns. This awful design allowed you to just frontload all of these cooldowns at the start of fights and come out way ahead. Wow's system is pretty different. There are many bread n butter spells that have no cooldown or a very short cooldown. The 40 second cooldown on heal for example would be unthinkable in wow. wow's design is far superior.

If your problem is with the cooldown system itself, I'd agree. But at this point in RPGs the days of more creative spell limitations (like the per day system etc) are over. Cooldowns are easier to understand and are intuitive enough to use for casuals that it won't ever change. The best chance we have of DAI being a good game is that they use a good iteration of the cooldown system. I'd prefer there to be not necessarily weak but plain spells that have no or very little cooldown. For mages spells like heal, winter's grasp could be cooldown-free, whilst more situational spells that can turn a tide of a fight having longer cooldowns. This would probably need some tweaks like say a cast time on winter's grasp to remain non-broken, but yeah.

I would vastly prefer a system whose main limitations are mana, spell usage itself and where cooldowns play a more minor role.

I agree entirely with your non-combat points. They should focus on things like that too; Traps and other out of combat stuff did not cut it in DA2. There are also ways to make rogues useful purely in combat without just giving them the predictable boost in dps too. Utility being the main thing. Smoke bombs, crowd control etc.

I also would like to point out how much I agree with the rogues always on the frontlines dpsing thing. I really hate the aesthetic of that. I would much prefer rogues to be based around burst from stealth/behind and crappy sustained. A wow system doesn't rule that part out though. There have been builds in the past in wow where rogue actually played like that there (in pvp at least)

Modifié par imbs, 05 avril 2013 - 07:54 .

[Twisted Path]

I'd take the combat system from Baldur's Gate 2. No joke.

[sharkboy421]

mosesarose wrote...

 Dragon's Dogma. It has the best combat systems since Shadow of the Colossus. It has a great pace to it and the amount of player involvement is wonderful. If BW integrated this with DA strategic layout , I think it could be really fun. Fighting dragons in Skyrim or any other RPG can't beat how you fight a dragon in DD. Screw hacking at it's feet when you can jump on it's back and beat it in the head.   

Edit: How you really fight a dragon

I'll have to second this.

[Rawgrim]

sharkboy421 wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

 Dragon's Dogma. It has the best combat systems since Shadow of the Colossus. It has a great pace to it and the amount of player involvement is wonderful. If BW integrated this with DA strategic layout , I think it could be really fun. Fighting dragons in Skyrim or any other RPG can't beat how you fight a dragon in DD. Screw hacking at it's feet when you can jump on it's back and beat it in the head.   

Edit: How you really fight a dragon

I'll have to second this.

Wich is kind of how you kill dragons in DA:O, to be honest.

[10K]

Rawgrim wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

 Dragon's Dogma. It has the best combat systems since Shadow of the Colossus. It has a great pace to it and the amount of player involvement is wonderful. If BW integrated this with DA strategic layout , I think it could be really fun. Fighting dragons in Skyrim or any other RPG can't beat how you fight a dragon in DD. Screw hacking at it's feet when you can jump on it's back and beat it in the head.   

Edit: How you really fight a dragon

I'll have to second this.

Wich is kind of how you kill dragons in DA:O, to be honest.

Have to disagree, fighting dragons in Origins is the same as most games. You hack at it's feet and right when it's about to die either the warrior or rogue activate the death blow. You don't get to climb onto the dragon until the final blow. And even then the player isn't doing it, it's a cinematic. Where as in DD the player is in control at all times.

[Madmoe77]

Dragon's Dogma-Magic Archer! All of the hybrid classes were fantastic in that game. Each class felt it's own.

[KainD]

Devil may cry!