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[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They were going to do this earlier with Xen's cut quest on the Citadel. Even if you'd made peace with the Geth, Xen had actually managed to hack some of the Geth and gain control over some, and this was putting the Geth alliance on shaky ground. She had taken some Geth platforms to the Citadel and was using them to find reaper AI nodes. Shepard's job was to arrest her or kill her. Had her project been successful she would have discovered the intelligence. There was no option to side with her. That would have really screwed up the starbrat ending.

So they decided to retroactively explain the existence of the intelligence with Leviathan.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
"We are each a nation.  Independant.  Free of all weakness" 

Of course a Reaper would think this, just like TIM and Saren thought they were independent. Reapers also think they are the perfect evolution. Turns out Sovereign and Harbinger have a much higher opinion of themselves than the Intelligence does. Your Vendetta quote actually DOES suggest there is a master whose presence is inferred. It's not merely a speculation on the cyclical nature of the pattern. 

Or simply got the ball rolling.

Prior to ME3, the Reapers reminded me of the Berserkers.  Ancient war machines gone screwy and now operate on directives no longer relevant.

I'd argue that this is in fact what the story is as it stands. Except maybe make "machines" singular. 

It eliminates the laughably circulr logic.

This has already been eliminated by being acknowledged in the Leviathan DLC. The Catalyst's logic is circular because its conclusion was a basic premise programmed into it. It would not be able to deal with evidence that disproved its basic premise. Thus it represents the worst case of confirmation bias the galaxy has ever seen, and after the reworked EC dialogue and Leviathan this is actually the intended interpretation.

It elimiated the appeal to authority fallacy concerning its conclusions.

There is no such fallacy in the current story, because you are clearly meant to disagree with the Catalyst, except if you choose Synthesis of course.

It eliminates the arbitrary tragedies tacked on to the use of the Crucible.  It eliminates Shepard having to compromise his.her values to defeat the reapers.  

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, but this discussion began because I was suggesting keeping the Catalyst as the final antagonist while still removing the choices and arbitrary consequences for MEHEM. There is therefore no such compromise of values in an ending that acknowledges the Catalyst's backstory while still only destroying the Reapers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 12:45 .

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
There can be red herrings, there can be filler, there can be irrelevent speculation from characters. Plotting everything that tight so everything has meaning makes things feel too artificial.

This wouldn't be a red herring unless the true backstory was revealed to be different. It wouldn't be filler, either. And the Vendetta convo doesn't take the form of irrelevant speculation.

Well, I disagree with having to tie it up but beyond that the Catalyst is still a pointless, annoying character who cheapens the Reapers and doesn't actually tell us anything useful.

The backstory of the Leviathan/Intelligence completely reframes the Reaper mythology, which means the Catalyst is far from a pointless character.

As for whether it's bad backstory or not, I actually really like the ideas behind it. The Reapers were created because a race of beings, thinking themselves perfect gods, inadvertently brought about their own demise and created a race of machines that think of themselves in much the same way. I find that to be intellectually stimulating, even though I feel the ending dialogue features too much organic/synthetic conflict rhetoric instead of focusing on this angle which I find more compelling.

Is a really badly tied up plot point always worse than a loose one?

If you are talking about beginning to reveal the genesis of the entire conflict, and then just dropping it? As opposed to a disappointing origin story? I'll take disappointment over a broken narrative anyday.

[UniqueName001]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, but this discussion began because I was suggesting keeping the Catalyst as the final antagonist while still removing the choices and arbitrary consequences for MEHEM. There is therefore no such compromise of values in an ending that acknowledges the Catalyst's backstory while still only destroying the Reapers.

I personally, though, feel that the game is much better without the official backstory.  The official backstory cheapens the entire trilogy.  Suddenly, the Reapers are actually the "good guys", they are "only following orders", they are "slaves to their programming".  After fighting them as the enemy for three games, this was very disappointing to me.

For that matter, I don't consider the Catalyst to be the final antagonist, in that I don't consider it to be an antagonist at all.  In the final minutes, it becomes the protagonist of the game; it provides the choices, it provides the outcomes, it is in charge, instead of Shepard, who is relegated to choosing door number one, two, or three.

Not everyone will be, of course, but I am much happier without this "twist" ending.  I'd rather not know the Reaper's motiviations if they are going to ruin them as an antagonist for the series.

I intentionally didn't get Leviathan for this very reason; I don't want more added to an explaination that already doesn't work for me.  For that matter, I don't think there should be DLC required to make sense of the original ending.

So I'm OK with not meeting the inferred controller of the Reapers, in the same way that I am OK with not ever finding out what was going on at Haestrom.  My second playthrough, someday, is going to be ME3 + EC + MEHEM + Citidel.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Of course a Reaper would think this, just like TIM and Saren thought they were independent. Reapers also think they are the perfect evolution. Turns out Sovereign and Harbinger have a much higher opinion of themselves than the Intelligence does. Your Vendetta quote actually DOES suggest there is a master whose presence is inferred. It's not merely a speculation on the cyclical nature of the pattern.

And without the Catalyst, Sovereign's claim to be "independant" now becomes true.  Or, at least "more accurate"

As to the Vendetta quote, let me highlight the relevant passage:

Shepard:  Like the Reaper attacks
Vendetta: And beyond.  The same peaks of evolution.  The same valleys of dissolution.  The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a differnt manner.  the repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance.


Vendetta is referring to more than the Reapers.  It's talking about evolution and conflict.  Far more involved than simple cullings every fifty thousand years.  If Vendetta knew about the Intelligence, I'd think it would say that even that is serving a higher power.

Prior to ME3, the Reapers reminded me of the Berserkers.  Ancient war machines gone screwy and now operate on directives no longer relevant.

I'd argue that this is in fact what the story is as it stands. Except maybe make "machines" singular.

And in the case of the Berserkers, they are not driven by a singular intelligence. Just a singular purpose.  

This has already been eliminated by being acknowledged in the Leviathan DLC. The Catalyst's logic is circular because its conclusion was a basic premise programmed into it. It would not be able to deal with evidence that disproved its basic premise. Thus it represents the worst case of confirmation bias the galaxy has ever seen, and after the reworked EC dialogue and Leviathan this is actually the intended interpretation.

The intelligence was given a directive.  It came to its conclusion on its own, by studying the life forms of the galaxy.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, but this discussion began because I was suggesting keeping the Catalyst as the final antagonist while still removing the choices and arbitrary consequences for MEHEM. There is therefore no such compromise of values in an ending that acknowledges the Catalyst's backstory while still only destroying the Reapers.

That would be better.  But still painfully stupid.

[CronoDragoon]

UniqueName001 wrote...
I personally, though, feel that the game is much better without the official backstory.  The official backstory cheapens the entire trilogy.  Suddenly, the Reapers are actually the "good guys", they are "only following orders", they are "slaves to their programming".  After fighting them as the enemy for three games, this was very disappointing to me.

Well, I suppose if modders could also remove those few Vendetta lines while the player skipped Leviathan, then removing the Catalyst entirely could work. It's obviously seriously changing the story into something completely different at that point, but that's probably not bothering anyone using MEHEM to begin with. 

[ruggly]

So essentially, what you would like to see is something like: The catalyst and its options remain, but you get the (more refined if possible) cutscenes of the crew rescuing Shepard.

As for any mention of the catalyst, if I drink enough while playing, I'm able to ignore it. If I don't, then I can mishmash the two things in my head to make it reasonable enough for me.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
And without the Catalyst, Sovereign's claim to be "independant" now becomes true.  Or, at least "more accurate"

As to the Vendetta quote, let me highlight the relevant passage:

Shepard:  Like the Reaper attacks
Vendetta: And beyond.  The same peaks of evolution.  The same valleys of dissolution.  The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a differnt manner.  the repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance.


Vendetta is referring to more than the Reapers.  It's talking about evolution and conflict.  Far more involved than simple cullings every fifty thousand years.  If Vendetta knew about the Intelligence, I'd think it would say that even that is serving a higher power.

Yes, and the next few lines specifically are dealing with the idea of someone controlling the Reapers. That is what Vendetta is speculating about in those final lines, not the overall pattern.

And in the case of the Berserkers, they are not driven by a singular intelligence. Just a singular purpose.

The intelligence has only a singular purpose, so there's no distinction being made here. 

The intelligence was given a directive.  It came to its conclusion on its own, by studying the life forms of the galaxy.

The only conclusion that the Intelligence came to on its own was that the Reaper cycle was necessary to stop organic/synthetic conflict.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Yes, and the next few lines specifically are dealing with the idea of someone controlling the Reapers. That is what Vendetta is speculating about in those final lines, not the overall pattern.

No, the next few lines are about who is controlling the pattern.  Of which the Reapers serve.  And I already pointed out the pattern is far greater than the reaper cycles.  By this logic, the Catalyst is only middle management.  A servant with authority over lesser servants.

The intelligence has only a singular purpose, so there's no distinction being made here.

There is, actually.  A single intelligence operates by itself, using thralls as extensions of itself.  A single purpose can be pursued by many individuals working in concert. 

The only conclusion that the Intelligence came to on its own was that the Reaper cycle was necessary to stop organic/synthetic conflict.

Yes.  And its mandate was to preserve life at any cost.   I don't need any organic/synthetic conflict silliness to get that. i already know they incorporate organic components into themselves.  that can be some kind of whacked-out interpretation of "preserving organic life"

Modifié par iakus, 08 avril 2013 - 01:24 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
No, the next few lines are about who is controlling the pattern.  Of which the Reapers serve.  And I already pointed out the pattern is far greater than the reaper cycles.  By this logic, the Catalyst is only middle management.  A servant with authority over lesser servants.

This is what is being said.

1. The Reapers are servants of a larger pattern.
2. Someone is controlling the larger pattern.

Are you seriously going to argue that this isn't speculation about someone controlling the Reapers, or to put this another way, speculation about a greater antagonist than the Reapers?

There is, actually.  A single intelligence operates by itself, using thralls as extensions of itself.  A single purpose can be pursued by many individuals working in concert.

A single purpose can also be pursued by a single intelligence. Again, what is the relevance of your distinction here? 

Yes.  And its mandate was to preserve life at any cost.  

Correct. What are you in fact pointing out?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 01:28 .

[UniqueName001]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, I suppose if modders could also remove those few Vendetta lines while the player skipped Leviathan, then removing the Catalyst entirely could work. It's obviously seriously changing the story into something completely different at that point, but that's probably not bothering anyone using MEHEM to begin with. 

Heh, that is true.

Still, I would rather the couple of lines from Vendetta, in which he merely speculates on the nature of the Reapers, come to nothing than for all those statements from Sovereign to be wrong.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This is what is being said.

1. The Reapers are servants of a larger pattern.
2. Someone is controlling the larger pattern.

Are you seriously going to argue that this isn't speculation about someone controlling the Reapers, or to put this another way, speculation about a greater antagonist than the Reapers?

That's not what I'm arguing at at all.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  I'm saying Vendetta is suggesting there's something even greater than the Catalyst/Intelligence.  As the greater pattern it is seeing goes beyond anything the reapers have ever involved themselves in.

A single purpose can also be pursued by a single intelligence. Again, what is the relevance of your distinction here?

That the Reapers don't need a single intelligence driving them.  They can be independant, working towards a single goal, working in concert with each other.  No Starchild needed.

Correct. What are you in fact pointing out?

That the nonsense of "the created always turn against their creators" and other such nonsense the Catalyst spews is uneeded and detracts from the story.  All we need is "science project gone screwy"  We've done enough missions like those before.  Often involving Cerberus.

I didn't need to understand the nature of the darkspawn to slay the archdemon.  I don't need to understand the nature of the Reapers to slay them either.

[MrFob]

It's interesting that people get into discussions of finer plot points and narrative structure concerning MEHEM (see posts from e.g. David7204 and CronoDragoon).
No one should ever claim that this substitute is perfect.or even really that good if you put it up to the standard of a real original creation. My personal view is that it can suffice (for those who wanted something like this in the first place). It's a compromise between what's possible (at the moment) and what you'd want to put into the story.
As I said before, my main motivation for making this mod was to see if I could get the memorial as a reunion scene working in game. All the "narrative" in between was quickly put together to make it fit in somehow. Of course it is simplistic, that was even part of the point, to keep it simple so it would work now instead of 3 years from now.
Of course, the ME trilogy had much more potential for a great finale but IMO that went untapped by the original (and EC) endings as well.
I have yet to hear anyone claim that MEHEM is the ultimate ending (nor should anyone because it is not) but the fact that apparently quite a few people enjoy this makeshift attempt over the original is a signal that BW should think about when it comes to future products IMO.

[CronoDragoon]

MrFob wrote...
I have yet to hear anyone claim that MEHEM is the ultimate ending (nor should anyone because it is not) but the fact that apparently quite a few people enjoy this makeshift attempt over the original is a signal that BW should think about when it comes to future products IMO.

Sure. I'm just expressing my opinion that a happy ending mod that can still account for the Catalyst while giving you a happy ending is going to be better than one that completely dismisses it.

[MegaSovereign]

Leviathan added context to Vendetta's speculation.

The Catalyst/Intelligence is deliberately manipulating evolution through the cycles in order to "find what it's looking for."

The pattern is a symptom of the cycle, which was mandated by the Catalyst. Therefore, the Catalyst is the "master" of the pattern that Vendetta was inferring.

EDIT:

Many MEHEMers told me that the Intelligence still exists in the MEHEM fanon. You just never confront it at the end.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 08 avril 2013 - 01:51 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Leviathan added context to Vendetta's speculation.

The Catalyst/Intelligence is deliberately manipulating evolution through the cycles in order to "find what it's looking for."

The pattern is a symptom of the cycle, which was mandated by the Catalyst. Therefore, the Catalyst is the "master" of the pattern that Vendetta was inferring.

But they are not manipulating evolution, they are manipulating technological development.  They leave undeveloped life forms alone.  At the most, they are studying them (as they puree them into reaper goo)

Edit:  If any race was responsible for manipulating evolution, it was the Protheans.  Given what they did with the rachnni, the asari, and possibly humanity.

Modifié par iakus, 08 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[Asharad Hett]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Sure. I'm just expressing my opinion that a happy ending mod that can still account for the Catalyst while giving you a happy ending is going to be better than one that completely dismisses it.

IMO, any ending without the Catalyst conversation is better than one with it.  I don't need happy.  I need that illogical conversation to be eliminated.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Leviathan added context to Vendetta's speculation.

The Catalyst/Intelligence is deliberately manipulating evolution through the cycles in order to "find what it's looking for."

The pattern is a symptom of the cycle, which was mandated by the Catalyst. Therefore, the Catalyst is the "master" of the pattern that Vendetta was inferring.

But they are not manipulating evolution, they are manipulating technological development.  They leave undeveloped life forms alone.  At the most, they are studying them (as they puree them into reaper goo)

They're indirectly manipulating evolution by guiding organics so that they use their technology. This is pretty basic ME1 info.

[MrFob]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MrFob wrote...
I have yet to hear anyone claim that MEHEM is the ultimate ending (nor should anyone because it is not) but the fact that apparently quite a few people enjoy this makeshift attempt over the original is a signal that BW should think about when it comes to future products IMO.

Sure. I'm just expressing my opinion that a happy ending mod that can still account for the Catalyst while giving you a happy ending is going to be better than one that completely dismisses it.

There is actually a way to get that out of MEHEM (check out the customisation thread).
However, I disagree. I am not even that fond of the happy ending part per se. I just think the catalyst is the most contrived, illogical and ill-fitting part of the story and encompasses 90% of what's wrong with the ending. Taking it out (or rather changing it) was my motivation to start this whole modding business in the first place.

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2013 - 01:56 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

They're indirectly manipulating evolution by guiding organics so that they use their technology. This is pretty basic ME1 info.

Like I said, that's not evolution.  That's technological development.

Making asari into natural biotics:  evolution

Leaving a mass relay network lying around so the asari can make use of it:: technological development.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

That's not what I'm arguing at at all.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  I'm saying Vendetta is suggesting there's something even greater than the Catalyst/Intelligence.  As the greater pattern it is seeing goes beyond anything the reapers have ever involved themselves in.

In that case, you're misreading the dialogue. Immediately after Vendetta observes patterns that go above the Reapers, Liara says that they assumed the Reapers were responsible for the cyclical nature of events. Vendetta says he believes the Reapers are servants of the pattern, not its master. Who is the master - Shepard asks. Vendetta responds that its presence is inferred.

Any pattern discussed in that dialogue does not control the Catalyst, it controls the Reapers, and the Catalyst controls the patterns. 

That the Reapers don't need a single intelligence driving them.  They can be independant, working towards a single goal, working in concert with each other.  No Starchild needed.

Of course the Starchild isn't "needed" if we're talking pre-ME3. ME3 could have explained the Reapers in many different ways. But your original statement about machines serving a purpose after the purpose had lost its meaning is applicable to the story of the Catalyst and the Leviathans, and ME in general.

That the nonsense of "the created always turn against their creators" and other such nonsense the Catalyst spews is uneeded and detracts from the story.  All we need is "science project gone screwy"  We've done enough missions like those before.  Often involving Cerberus.

But you needed an explanation for why the science project went screwy. Now, I've already said that the ending dwells a little too much on organic/synthetic conflict for my taste, but if you're going to keep the Catalyst then you do need to keep its reason for existing.

I didn't need to understand the nature of the darkspawn to slay the archdemon.  I don't need to understand the nature of the Reapers to slay them either.

Funny you bring up the Archdemon, because you are in fact told the nature of the Archdemon and it affects the content of the ending greatly. In fact, Origins is by far one of the more contrived endings I've played in a game. The entire nature of the Archdemon's soul was created merely to present a choice to the player at the end. It doesn't rise organically from the story, especially when you consider how much more convoluted Morrigan's exposition of the Dark Ritual makes the entire mess.

[Mr.House]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MrFob wrote...
I have yet to hear anyone claim that MEHEM is the ultimate ending (nor should anyone because it is not) but the fact that apparently quite a few people enjoy this makeshift attempt over the original is a signal that BW should think about when it comes to future products IMO.

Sure. I'm just expressing my opinion that a happy ending mod that can still account for the Catalyst while giving you a happy ending is going to be better than one that completely dismisses it.

No. The biggest reason I love MEHEM is because starbrat is not in the game. If Shepard died in MEHEM I would still prefer it over Biowares ending because Starbrat is gone, the Reapers motives are still left unclear even with the Levi dlc and the Reapers are not turned into good guy slaves.

Cutting Starbrat does not damage at all, it get's rid of damage.

Modifié par Mr.House, 08 avril 2013 - 01:59 .

[David7204]

There's another thing. Treating the Catalyst and the Reaper motives as one and the same.

They aren't.

The Reapers need a motive and that's really the end of it. There needs to be a confrontation with the antagonist and that's really the end of it. Just having the Crucible fire was never an option for BioWare.

Modifié par David7204, 08 avril 2013 - 02:05 .

[CronoDragoon]

MrFob wrote...
However, I disagree. I am not even that fond of the happy ending part per se. I just think the catalyst is the most contrived, illogical and ill-fitting part of the story and encompasses 90% of what's wrong with the ending. Taking it out (or rather changing it) was my motivation to start this whole modding business in the first place.

I would have agreed with you after viewing the original endings. Post-EC and Leviathan I am fine with it, because what Leviathan actually does is refocus the ending theme slightly. It's no longer PURELY a story of organics vs. synthetics; with the Leviathan backstory we can now see that this consideration is secondary to notions of the overflow of power, to the danger of manipulating technology without understanding it, etc.

[MrFob]

@CronoDragoon: I agree that the reapers deserved some kind of explanation. IMO it's one of the downsides of MEHEM that this never happened (although that is a matter of perspective as well).
However, the catalyst produced more problems than it solved, logically and within the narrative.
Sure, it would be better if we didn't have to put so much interpretation into dismissing Vendetta's theories (and even more to cope with the Leviathan's take on things).
However, dealing with the star kid needs even more plugging of holes and imagined plot threads to make it work.
At this point it's a question of the lesser evil IMO.

@David7204> I absolutely agree, at least on the "no confrontation" part. For BioWare it was never an option.

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2013 - 02:08 .