364 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

There's another thing. Treating the Catalyst and the Reaper motives as one and the same.

They aren't.

The Reapers need a motive and that's really the end of it.

Needing a motive and revealing that motive are two diffrent things.

[CronoDragoon]

Mr.House wrote...
Needing a motive and revealing that motive are two diffrent things. 

Actually the exact same thing storytelling-wise.

[David7204]

If the audience doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist.

[ruggly]

I actually like crono's idea. Leviathans decided that in order to become even greater than they already thought themselves, they created Harbinger. Harbinger then goes all screwy and starts creating more reapers in its image after destroying the Leviathans. You'd probably have to get rid of the catalyst, replace the ending conversation with Harbinger. I don't know how the ending choices would fit into that, though, other than destroy. But that would have been a lot more interesting than we're here to protect you. It comes off as a bit more of a standard ending, and obviously Leviathan would have to be in the vanilla game, but it seems a lot more workable than what we got.

[Mr.House]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Needing a motive and revealing that motive are two diffrent things. 

Actually the exact same thing storytelling-wise.

Not really,  there could have been many ideas the characters in the series come up with about the Reapers and let the player decide for themselves. You do not need to always reveal the motive, more so when it turns out to be so idiotic and spewed by a new character in the last ten minutes. I'll take no reveal of the motive and leaving it to me then having one of the worse motives I have ever heard.

Modifié par Mr.House, 08 avril 2013 - 02:13 .

[CronoDragoon]

ruggly wrote...

I actually like crono's idea. Leviathans decided that in order to become even greater than they already thought themselves, they created Harbinger. Harbinger then goes all screwy and starts creating more reapers in its image after destroying the Leviathans. You'd probably have to get rid of the catalyst, replace the ending conversation with Harbinger. I don't know how the ending choices would fit into that, though, other than destroy. But that would have been a lot more interesting than we're here to protect you. It comes off as a bit more of a standard ending, and obviously Leviathan would have to be in the vanilla game, but it seems a lot more workable than what we got.

I actually love this idea, because of how well it's represented in Harbinger's words, and the general attitude of both Sovereign and Harbinger.

After all, all we really knew about the Reapers pre ME3 was that they considered themselves ascended lifeforms. This could tie in well with the Leviathans who already considered themselves as such.

[David7204]

I have an idea I kinda like.

[MrFob]

The thing is (and I was trying to make this point before), writing out a new ending is great. There are tons of fantastic ideas out there. It all depends on the restrictions you are working with. My goal was always that I wanted my new endings to work within the game, to be "playable" and to be achievable in a rather limited amount of time (I know that if I'd start a modding project that takes longer than 3-6 months, I'd never get it done).
Changing the catalyst conversation is something I actually did as well (not to Harbinger though). I still consider that one a more fitting ending than MEHEM myself but it's still not exactly the kind of ending I'd really consider fitting perfectly for the story because I still had to compromise on the modding restrictions. In the end, with mods, you can achieve endless variety but you need to have the time and people to put them together and you'll probably never get your "dream ending" together just the way you imagined it. It's a question of approximation.

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2013 - 02:21 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

In that case, you're misreading the dialogue. Immediately after Vendetta observes patterns that go above the Reapers, Liara says that they assumed the Reapers were responsible for the cyclical nature of events. Vendetta says he believes the Reapers are servants of the pattern, not its master. Who is the master - Shepard asks. Vendetta responds that its presence is inferred.

Any pattern discussed in that dialogue does not control the Catalyst, it controls the Reapers, and the Catalyst controls the patterns.

That may have been the intention.  But the way it is descibed makes it very easy for me to think it's describing more than the Reaper cycles.  Thus I can think "sequel bait" and move on.

But you needed an explanation for why the science project went screwy. Now, I've already said that the ending dwells a little too much on organic/synthetic conflict for my taste, but if you're going to keep the Catalyst then you do need to keep its reason for existing.

Actually, I didn't need the explanatioon.  Sure it's nice to have.  But since ME1 I've been operating on the assumption that the reapers are unfathomable to human minds.  they are so ancient, so alien, that they are operating from a perspective we simply can't understand.

And unless the developers had a purpose they were just waiting fro the right moment to reveal, they should have kept it that way.

Funny you bring up the Archdemon, because you are in fact told the nature of the Archdemon and it affects the content of the ending greatly. In fact, Origins is by far one of the more contrived endings I've played in a game. The entire nature of the Archdemon's soul was created merely to present a choice to the player at the end. It doesn't rise organically from the story, especially when you consider how much more convoluted Morrigan's exposition of the Dark Ritual makes the entire mess.

Actully, we know very little about the darkspawn.  Where they came from, what their motivations are, how intelligent they are.  Even how the taint came about.  There's the Chantry legend, but that's about it..  And even that is called into question.  Yeah you know how to slay the archdemon.  But why is killing it different than killing an ogre, or a hurlock?  But all that's for later installments (perhaps).  For now, gotta save Ferelden.  And this is what I need to know.

[ruggly]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I actually like crono's idea. Leviathans decided that in order to become even greater than they already thought themselves, they created Harbinger. Harbinger then goes all screwy and starts creating more reapers in its image after destroying the Leviathans. You'd probably have to get rid of the catalyst, replace the ending conversation with Harbinger. I don't know how the ending choices would fit into that, though, other than destroy. But that would have been a lot more interesting than we're here to protect you. It comes off as a bit more of a standard ending, and obviously Leviathan would have to be in the vanilla game, but it seems a lot more workable than what we got.

I actually love this idea, because of how well it's represented in Harbinger's words, and the general attitude of both Sovereign and Harbinger.

After all, all we really knew about the Reapers pre ME3 was that they considered themselves ascended lifeforms. This could tie in well with the Leviathans who already considered themselves as such.

Exactly.  Harbinger always spouting about how becoming a reaper is our genetic destiny, only those he finds worthy can become a capital ship like him, and the lesser ones become destroyers.  Find me a time machine, and we can go back and suggest this idea!

[David7204]

Honestly, I don't like it much at all. How does creating Harbinger make the Leviathans greater? Why does Harbinger go crazy? How is making other Reapers supposed to make Harbinger better or whaever? If the purpose is to make more Reapers, why do they have to exterminate the entire species? Why not just a few million?

Modifié par David7204, 08 avril 2013 - 02:24 .

[ruggly]

It would definitely need refining, it was only a quick idea.

I'll think about it some more, but now it's bedtime.

Modifié par ruggly, 08 avril 2013 - 02:29 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
 Yeah you know how to slay the archdemon.  But why is killing it different than killing an ogre, or a hurlock?  But all that's for later installments (perhaps).  For now, gotta save Ferelden.  And this is what I need to know.

It's not for later installments; you are told this in Origins before the final battle. The entire discussion about the soul of the Archdemon and the purpose of the Grey Wardens in battling the Archdemon is exposition for the sake of having a contrived choice in the end. You're acting like you just show up to the battle and kill the Archdemon and that's it when in actuality MUCH of the ending is based around a last-minute plot twist that necessitates a final player choice. And in this case the plot twist has to do with the nature of the Archdemon and the process of destroying his soul. It's much more closely aligned to ME3's ending in this respect.

Also, Awakening told you more about the darkspawn, so they didn't exactly leave that up to imagination, either.

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...

Honestly, I don't like it much at all. How does creating Harbinger make the Leviathans greater?

In the same sense that statues make dictators feel greater. Immortality is the life-long obsession of any megalomaniacs. I haven't thought of specifics, but the parallels to me are there.

Why does Harbinger go crazy?

Who says he goes crazy? If the Leviathans make him in their image, then he's simply asserting his dominance by destroying them and/or making them into Reapers that serve him.

How is making other Reapers supposed to make Harbinger better or whaever? If the purpose is to make more Reapers, why do they have to exterminate the entire species? Why not just a few million?

We're back to the ascension part. If Harbinger feels that Reapers are the ultimate trascendence of life, and if all those final forms bend to his will, then why would he leave any organics in their original form?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 02:30 .

[AresKeith]

That's pretty much how I pictured Harbinger to be the main villain for ME3

[David7204]

Right. Well here's my idea.

The Reapers exist to ensure life continues to struggle. To ensure life always has a goal to reach towards.

The Reapers were the first race. The first race to spread across the galaxy. A race that reached its apex, established perfect societies, conquered disease and mortality, built empires across the galaxy... and then was left to wonder what to do next.

What purpose is there for them? No more conflict, no more mystery. No more stories. Nothing to do or gain or see or create. Just existence. Stagnation, as Mordin put it. They've seen all there is to see and know all there is to know. Heroes can't exist in such a world - there's no need for them, no purpose for them.

But...as long as there is a cycle, the stories can continue. Forever. The proof is right in front of us, isn't it? We continually seek stories with new enemies to defeat, new partners to romance, new worlds to explore. We want that. The Reapers decided to begin the cycle to allow that to happen, starting with their own civilization. They allow life to always have a journey ahead of it. To always have possibilities and opportunities lying in wait. 

I like this for a lot of reasons.

#1. First and perhaps most important, I think it's plausible. I genuinely think that this is something a lifeform who has basically attained godhood could be thinking without being insane.

#2. It does a great job of answering a lot of tough questions. Why the Reapers have the cycles, why they extermine the entire species, why they wait until a species reaches a certain stage of development.

#3. It doesn't have any genetic nonsense. No melting down humans into goo, no building Reapers out of organics, no stupid dark energy physics, none of that. All of that can happily be scapped. There would have to be a new motive for the Collectors kidnapping humans, but that shouldn't be terrible difficult.

Of course, the Reapers are still the villains. We have to have Shepard respond to all that somehow. Defy it. I'm thinking Shepard could say something along the lines of 'Stories come from friends, not from technology or the lack of it' or something like that. End the story on a theme of friendship and love trumping technology.

Modifié par David7204, 08 avril 2013 - 03:03 .

[CronoDragoon]

So a complete rewrite of at the least ME2 and 3 then? Well, no DNA goo nonsense is always a plus.

[MrFob]

@David7204: So the reapers are in every galaxy then? They are all over the universe because they discovered and know everything. Defeating them in the Milky Way is only a tiny little step. Well it certainly has potential for sequels.

[David7204]

Err...no. I didn't say anything about them being in multiple galaxies.

I suppose they could be, but I wouldn't address that.

Modifié par David7204, 08 avril 2013 - 02:59 .

[mtmercydave09]

I could see Reapers being in other galaxies too, but I wouldn't think Bioware would go down that path again with new characters in a new galaxy for the next game.

[David7204]

Right, so about the idea? Good? Bad? Questions? Complaints?

[MrFob]

David7204 wrote...

Err...no. I didn't say anything about them being in multiple galaxies.

I suppose they could be, but I wouldn't address that.

It would have to be the case. IMO. The logic here is that they have nothing more to strive for, nothing to discover. If they were confined to the Milky Way, I'd say there is plenty to discover and to to strive for still ahead of them. Actually I was already dampening down the statement I had originally planned, going into cosmology, multiple universes, the "what came before the big bang" question etc. A race that solved all that already would be a rather interesting foe indeed. But I guess that sort of thing was never Mass Effect's style.

To answer your above post: I think it's an interesting idea, if very complicated to pull off. Reminds me of Q in the Star Trek franchise (TNG, not Voyager, most definitely not Voyager).

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2013 - 03:10 .

[David7204]

I'd have to find a good answer to that. As someone who supports conventional victory, I can't have Shepard fighting an enemy that exists throughout the entire universe. It would mean trillions of Reapers instead of thousands.

Maybe just some dialogue indicating that the Reapers were uninterested in other galaxies, since (to someone who understands all of science perfectly) they're nothing but stars and planets and life, all of which they've seen before?

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...

Right, so about the idea? Good? Bad? Questions? Complaints?

Honestly, it reminds me of Greek mythology. You could say the Iliad was just a big case of the gods staging a human play for the lulz.

You may have to be careful though in how it's worded. I think it would be a mistake to trivialize the Reaper cycle as something they do because they are bored. You may also have to consider that if they are strictly machines and not organic hybrids as you say, how is it that synthetics care so much about mystery and stories? Much of ME's synthetics seem to identify their goal as a sort of ultimate understanding, either of their race or the universe. In such a case the Reapers as synthetics would be jubilant in conquering all the mysteries of the galaxy. Thus you may have to explain why these synthetics are different.

[David7204]

They're machines, but they're AIs. Like EDI. I don't think the Reapers being synthetic is an issue, really. There's a pretty big point of organics and synthetics not being fundamentally different.

Also, remember that they're doing it as caretakers. Not for their own amusement, but for the good of life. Remember that Shepard would never have existed if not for them. Shepard is a good thing. And that's why the do it. So good things like Shepard may exist. Basically.

Modifié par David7204, 08 avril 2013 - 03:27 .