364 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

Are you sure nobody's suggesting MEHEM is perfect? Because I've seen a hell of a lot of 'ideal ending' suggestions that are basically just that - The Crucible firing, the Reapers dying, happy ending. Sometimes the Crucible being an EMP or something, and the Reapers being killed by the fleets. But that's really not a big difference at all.

MEHEM captures the spirit of what people wanted as one possibility.  It becomes to many the ideal because it more fully appeals to the feelings they'd hoped they would experience with the ending.

I've been one of those that suggested the Crucible be a sort of EMP or dark energy device (since that was actually stated by Shepard to Conrad to be what it was) and that it fit with the codex on what such a device might do to the mass of objects such as the reapers.  Hint: it would be possible to alter their mass to make them vulnerable.

The barebones desire by a great many of us was to have some situation where (not the only one) Shepard's brain returns to his/her head and s/he doubts the kid, his logic, the whole scenario, and then is able to use the crucible as it was intended and for the purpose that was drummed into our brains throughout the whole game-some type of weapon.  No, I didn't want it to be some big cannon in space.  For the record, I think it was an idiotic plot device anyway, but it could have been used more meaningfully and logically.  The idea that someone created it to act upon the kid (a being no one knew existed-no one the created the crucible as far as we know and the story ain't telling) and that the galaxy of people in every cycle could adapt it and make it work better with the kid, is ridiculous. 

So, no MEHEM can't change any of that, but what it could do is at least provide the framework for my imagination to take over and it let me see my Shepard hug her LI AND live.  And in so doing, I didn't have to decide to kill EDI (and break a good friend's heart that had just found a way to love and something to really live for), I didn't have to kill the geth (the only people in the galaxy that ALWAYS believed the reapers were coming and stood behind Shepard).  It made me feel better after seeing all that.

Perfect, well nothing would ever be perfect and unlike the glow boy, I don't see that as some end state-perfection.  It was a lot of hard work that people did for others in order to make the game feel better and be playable again-it contained the things I wanted to see and removed a lot of stuff I wish I'd never seen.

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

You're projecting your dislike of components of the endings on a character that really has very little do with them. You're looking for something concrete to blame it on.

Are you talking about the kid or something else?  If you mean the kid then it's kind of hard to separate him and the dislike of him from the endings that exist-he's there to give them some exposition except he is THE big flaw.  The choices are part of the whole thing that goes along with him.  First off for me is the fact that yes he is an AI (intelligent my butt), but he's a moron.  He's an idiotic program created by arrogant idiots to solve a moronic problem.  Goody.  There's nothing that any fan could do to make him be OK for me.  And no one could tweak his story enough to make it all then make sense for Shepard to have to make one of those idiotic choices. 

The aim was always to destroy the reapers.  I'd have preferred that real creativity be used to find some great way to make that possible.  The kid needed to be exorcised from my consciousness because he makes no sense.

[David7204]

...That all seems to be reinforcing my point. It sounds to me like you think an ending with the Crucible being an EMP or something and killing the Reapers without the Catalyst would be perfect.

Look at your post. You problem is clearly not with the Catalyst as a character. It's with the Reaper motive and the three options.

Modifié par David7204, 11 avril 2013 - 04:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

...That all seems to be reinforcing my point. It sounds to me like you think an ending with the Crucible being an EMP or something and killing the Reapers without the Catalyst would be perfect.

Look at your post. You problem is clearly not with the Catalyst as a character. It's with the Reaper motive and the three options.

I really don't see your point.  My problem is with the whole thing-I've never said otherwise.  The kid is part and parcel of the ending and cannot be fixed.  His motive was never the reaper motive until he created them.  I've always said I have issues with the three options as they are and as they play out.  There were many ways that I think the alternate endings they created (and more) could have been worked to be much better but I've always objected to the notion of some final idiotic choice.

Clearly, you are not understanding my issues with the endings.   I've never said it was just one thing but the removal of the kid, also removes the rest of it because he is the reason why these endings were created in this way.  The reapers as foes were fine without him and I've never even really needed to understand their motives.  The only thing that makes sense to me is in keeping with how the kid sees them.  Consider them to be like fire-I don't need to know why it's burning and destroying things.  I need to put it out.  A person being eaten by a shark doesn't stop to try and understand its motives.  The kid exists to explain the reapers' motives and is thus, extraneous.  On top of that, he's idiotic.  So, yes I do have a problem with the catalyst-AS PRESENTED.

That does not preclude me disliking the rest of it.  It isn't an either or situation.  A person could even like the kid but really dislike the choices and the ending.  Personally, I've also suggested that they could have done a great many things to make even these endings work in part (with a lot of variation) if the kid had been removed and no one had been controlling the reapers.

I don't even know why you're arguing with me about what I do and do not like about the current endings-I don't like most all of what is contained within them and the kid is a big part.  I think I know my own opinion.


You said people said MEHEM was perfect-that statement is vastly different from what I think would be an ideal and complete (perfect) ending.  And you simplify it so much by saying all I wanted was the crucible to be an EMP and such, when I've stated over and over again to the contrary.  I also have repeatedly said I wanted a happier ending as one possibility.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[David7204]

Okay...let's make this simple. If ME 3 ended with the Crucible being some EMP weapon, the Reapers dying, the whole crew and all the races surviving, and a fair bit of content afterwards with Shepard and her love interest and the crew, would you have considered that a good ending? (Assuming you have a high EMS, of course.) No Catalyst, no three options, no Reaper motive or backstory at all, no surprises. Would you consider that perfect?

And if not, what's the problem?

Modifié par David7204, 11 avril 2013 - 04:58 .

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

Okay...let's make this simple. If ME 3 ended with the Crucible being some EMP weapon, the Reapers dying, the whole crew and all the races surviving, and a fair bit of content afterwards with Shepard and her love interest and the crew, would you have considered that a good ending? (Assuming you have a high EMS, of course.) No Catalyst, no three options, no Reaper motive or backstory at all, no surprises. Would you consider that perfect?

And if not, what's the problem?

I would have considered it a mediocre ending. Not perfect, but I would still be fairly content. At that point, I would have been fine with a mediocre ending as I had so much fun already. I wouldn't consider the Mass Effect universe ruined. I wouldn't understand what synthesis was doing there though, seeing as it would seem completely detached from the Reapers.

One thing that would still be disappointing is the lack of a struggle through the Citadel. I was under the impression that all the fighting on Earth was just a warmup for our storming of the Citadel, with a bunch of Geth and Krogan (as Saren did in ME1, only this time against the Reapers)

[David7204]

You said earlier that you would be "Satisfied" if the Catalyst was gone.

So in this hypothetical ending, not only is the Catalyst gone, but three options are gone, the motive you don't like is gone, you get a nice happy ending with Shepard clearly surviving. So removing the Catalyst makes you satisfied, but all that other stuff bumps it up to...mediocre? That sounds like it's going down a notch or two.

Modifié par David7204, 11 avril 2013 - 05:14 .

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

You said earlier that you would "Satisfied" if the Catalyst was gone.

So in this hypothetical ending, not only is the Catalyst gone, but three options are gone, the motive you don't like is gone, you get a nice happy ending with Shepard clearly surviving. So removing the Catalyst makes you satisfied, but all that other stuff bumps it up to mediocre? That sounds like it's going down a notch or two.

Sorry I thought this was a modified question when skimming. Thought it was with the 3 options.

Mediocre doesn't mean bad (despite the way some use it). It just means not very good. I would have been satisfied with an ending that wasn't very good. I had enjoyed the game considerably until then. The Starchild ruined it for me. 

I don't particularly care about Shepard's survival. If the squadmates did survive, it would be nice to see a bit of their future though.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 05:20 .

[David7204]

So why does the existence of Catalyst bother you so much again? And remember, you can't bring in the Reaper motive, backstory, or the three options into this. As you said, those things wouldn't be a problem if Harbinger had presented them. So it must be something else.

Modifié par David7204, 11 avril 2013 - 05:27 .

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

So why does the existence of Catalyst bother you so much again? And remember, you can't bring in the Reaper motive, backstory, or the three options into this. As you said, those things wouldn't be a problem if Harbinger had presented them. So it must be something else.

KingZayd wrote...

(snip)

I thought it was ridiculous that the master of the Reapers was there in the Citadel all along, and yet had done absolutely NOTHING throughout the series. Also, deciding that the old solution wouldn't work now, despite Shepard passing out, and therefore failing.

The snip is not my own. I copied the quote someone made of my reasoning on the last page. The snipped part is me just quoting another person I was replying to.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[David7204]

Disliking him for deciding that the old solution wouldn't work anymore is not valid, because Harbinger easily could and would have said the exact same thing.

As for being hidden on the Citadel...I don't see why that's such a big deal at all. Suppose that at the end of ME 1, Shepard found the physical system that controlled the relays, and it was destroyed somehow. So nobody can control the relays afterwards, human, alien, or Reaper. So that complaint is fixed. The Catalyst has the exact same dialogue in ME 3, though. That means the Catalyst is okay now, right?

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

Disliking him for deciding that the old solution wouldn't work anymore is not valid, because Harbinger easily could and would have said the exact same thing.

As for being hidden on the Citadel...I don't see why that's such a big deal at all. Suppose that at the end of ME 1, Shepard found the physical system that controlled the relays, and it was destroyed somehow. So nobody can control the relays afterwards, human, alien, or Reaper. So that complaint is fixed. The Catalyst has the exact same dialogue in ME 3, though. That means the Catalyst is okay now, right?

Why? The decision doesn't make any sense. In this scenario is Harbinger still the one bringing me upstairs despite my having lost? In that case I'm still not happy with this hypothetical ending.

Shepard wouldn't have found any physical system that controlled the relays if the Starchild did something and let all the Reapers through. So no. The complaint is not fixed, and the Starchild is still terrible.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 05:55 .

[David7204]

Alright then. Suppose the Prothean scientists managed to find the system and isolate it or shut it down, and Saren manages to reactivate it. Or suppose they destroyed the system entirely, and Saren is looking to somehow replace it. Perhaps Sovereign can replicate the functions of the system, but needs to physically be on the Citadel to do so. There's any number of feasible options. The point is, the problem is solved. Your complaint about the Catalyst is solved. So therefore the Catalyst is now okay, right?

Modifié par David7204, 11 avril 2013 - 06:03 .

[Hey]

the meem ending seems like a big hole in the end for me. no matter how abhorrent, I want to face down the mother ****er that did this ****. not to say i don't think it's a cool creation. it certainly is, but it has no place in my game.

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

Alright then. Suppose the Prothean scientists managed to find the system and isolate it or shut it down, and Saren manages to reactivate it. Or suppose they destroyed the system entirely, and Saren is looking to somehow replace it. Perhaps Sovereign can replicate the functions of the system, but needs to physically be on the Citadel to do so. There's any number of feasible options. The point is, the problem is solved. Your complaint about the Catalyst is solved. So therefore the Catalyst is now okay, right?

Pretty impressive considering the Prothean scientists had no idea it was there. Poor show from the Starchild though, not managing to stop them from sneaking around on the Citadel and hacking into his systems. Nope. Problem's still there. Starchild's still terrible.

[David7204]

So what it looks like you're saying to me is that the very existence of a Reaper AI on the Citadel ruined the series for you. There's no possible way to integrate that, there's no possible way to write it well. The existence of a Reaper AI is a completely impossible plot point that is beyond human ability to write. Is that about right?

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

So what it looks like you're saying to me is that the very existence of a Reaper AI on the Citadel ruined the series for you. There's no possible way to integrate that, there's no possible way to write it well. The existence of a Reaper AI is a completely impossible plot point that is beyond human ability to write. Is that about right?

Yes the very existence ruined the Reapers, and therefore the series for me. If there is a possible way to intergrate it, I haven't seen it yet. It seems to me though, that this revelation makes having Sovereign as a Vanguard redundant, as the advanced races use the Citadel anyway. More importantly it makes the successful Prothean sabotage and the failure to open the Citadel Relay in ME1 rather unbelievable.

If the Reaper AI had another location that would already be a major improvement.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 06:37 .

[Yestare7]

David7204 wrote...

Okay...let's make this simple. If ME 3 ended with the Crucible being some EMP weapon, the Reapers dying, the whole crew and all the races surviving, and a fair bit of content afterwards with Shepard and her love interest and the crew, would you have considered that a good ending? 

I'll take one of those, please!





Y

[Archonsg]

@david7204

The problem stems from the fact that Reapers were made to be too powerful and in great number.
How does one *logically* stop such a Juggernaut?

Bioware essentially set themselves up for a DEM ending.
Even so, they could have backed down and use the several known flaws in the Reapers themselves, allowing for an unconventional but military victory.
That they choose not to do so just made things worse.

In the end, for some the ending is fine.
For others, it is not so.
I am thankful for Mr Fobs for MEHEM, not so much because it's a "happy" ending, but because it removed the Catalyst from the game.

It removed my Shepard's transformation from being a strong willed hero to that of being a broken man, and making choices that I would not have my Character made. Or making the choice that I know he would, only to be told by the writer, "Nope, you all die, now go back and choose the ones we wanted you to make." 

I love the Mass Effect series.
Just not how it ended.

Modifié par Archonsg, 11 avril 2013 - 11:29 .

[Bizinha]

This mod will make me play again in PC ...

[Yestare7]

580 votes (april 13)

MEHEM has actually gained 2 percent:P:P

Bizinha wrote...

This mod will make me play again in PC ...

Happy for you!!

[Yestare7]

580 votes (april 13)

MEHEM has actually gained 2 percent:P:P

Bizinha wrote...

This mod will make me play again in PC ...

Happy for you!!

[mtmercydave09]

David7204 wrote...

Okay...let's make this simple. If ME 3 ended with the Crucible being some EMP weapon, the Reapers dying, the whole crew and all the races surviving, and a fair bit of content afterwards with Shepard and her love interest and the crew, would you have considered that a good ending? (Assuming you have a high EMS, of course.) No Catalyst, no three options, no Reaper motive or backstory at all, no surprises. Would you consider that perfect?

And if not, what's the problem?

I'd take that definitely.  Heck that's why I play the Citadel DLC after the ending, so I can see Shepard and the love interest and the crew being reunited.

[David7204]

Isn't that basically what MEHEM is?