364 réponses à ce sujet

[mass perfection]

Can someone make a banner saying "I wish I had a gaming PC so I can install MEHEM." Or something along those lines?

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Isn't that basically what MEHEM is?

Sort of, except the only after battle content for Shepard and crew is the memorial scene.

[David7204]

Well that's a problem. How many people here have told me that 'Nobody is claiming MEHEM is perfect'? Well, what I described is basically MEHEM.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Well that's a problem. How many people here have told me that 'Nobody is claiming MEHEM is perfect'? Well, what I described is basically MEHEM.

Because it's not perfect?

Relays are still trashed.

Anderson is still dead.

Citadel is still frakked up

No Reaper buddies

No Reaper guardians

Every friend or ally you've lost throughout the game is still dead.

MEHEM doesn't push your face further into the mud.  That's what makes it preferable to the originals.

[mtmercydave09]

iakus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Well that's a problem. How many people here have told me that 'Nobody is claiming MEHEM is perfect'? Well, what I described is basically MEHEM.

Because it's not perfect?

Relays are still trashed.

Anderson is still dead.

Citadel is still frakked up

No Reaper buddies

No Reaper guardians

Every friend or ally you've lost throughout the game is still dead.

MEHEM doesn't push your face further into the mud.  That's what makes it preferable to the originals.

Exactly, MEHEM isn't perfect, but what it does do well is that it doesn't make you choose between 4 versions of crap from some kid.  It doesn't pile on a depressing ending to the already doom and gloom mood to the game.

[David7204]

...I think we might be confusing a 'perfect' ending for Shepard with a perfect end to the story. It's not about everyone surviving.

Modifié par David7204, 13 avril 2013 - 06:13 .

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

...I think we might be confusing a 'perfect' ending for Shepard with a perfect end to the story. It's not about everyone surviving.

So, you're objecting to a perfect ending for Shepard?

Keep in mind that Shepard has to live in this galaxy too.  And would likely spend the rest of his/her life on the rebuilding effort.  But at least, the blood on Shepard's hands would be minimal.  And has a chance to find peace.

I just recall the line from one of Stephen King's stories:

And will I tell you that these three lived happily ever after? I will not, for no one ever does. But there was happiness. And they did live.

[David7204]

I object to not addressing the issues and questions the story needs to address.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

I object to not addressing the issues and questions the story needs to address.

What issues are there that can only be addressed by doing something horrific to the galaxy before dying?

[mtmercydave09]

David7204 wrote...

I object to not addressing the issues and questions the story needs to address.

MEHEM wasn't meant to address the issues and questions with the story I believe, just removing the starkid.  MEHEM was meant to be a "happy ending", not a "perfect ending" in regards to fixing story issues.

That's on Bioware for not providing a "perfect ending".

Therefore MEHEM does provide a happy ending, but yes it's not perfect.  

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 13 avril 2013 - 06:34 .

[David7204]

We're going in circles here. If you don't think MEHEM is a perfect ending, then what is?

[Yestare7]

David, if you go back a couple of pages, MrFob describes exactly what he intended to create.
MAIN focus was getting the Bratalyst outta here.



Y

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I object to not addressing the issues and questions the story needs to address.

What issues are there that can only be addressed by doing something horrific to the galaxy before dying?

I'll bite, how is Paragon Control "horrific?" You yourself listed not having Reaper Guardians as a con for the MEHEM.

How does MEHEM removing choices actually fix anything from an objective standpoint? Why did MEHEM need to remove the choices to validate the Super Destroy scenario?

Just thinking loudly, I don't find it very tasteful that a fleet would throw their lives away to save one man who doesn't necessarily need saving (people on the Citadel are still alive post-Crucible explosion, the latest version of MEHEM even added a slide to show this).

[mtmercydave09]

David7204 wrote...

We're going in circles here. If you don't think MEHEM is a perfect ending, then what is?

There isn't one, there's choices but do any of the endings solve all the problems?  Nope.

 It's called Mass Effect Happy Ending Mod, not Mass Effect Perfect Ending Mod.

However, "perfect" can also be subjective.  To some people high ems destroy is the "perfect" ending, to other's its not.

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 13 avril 2013 - 06:56 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'll bite, how is Paragon Control "horrific?" You yourself listed not having Reaper Guardians as a con for the MEHEM.

Paragon Control is horrific because it takes away the galaxy's freedom in exchange for security that may not be all that secure (I'm sure the Leviathan's didn't expect the Catalyst to turn on them, either)  I listed them not being guardians as a con becaus there are people who think having them protecting the galaxy is a "pro" not because I necessailly think so.

How does MEHEM removing choices actually fix anything from an objective standpoint? Why did MEHEM need to remove the choices to validate the Super Destroy scenario?

From an objective standpoint, it doesn't.  Because not everyone may like MEHEM.  What it fixes is adding type which many believe should have been in the game to begin with.  The choices got removed because modding can't really add stuff, only replace.  I don't know the details of how it works, but the time with the Catalyst had to go to add the rescue.  Thus why the choice" is in installing the mod to begin with.

Just thinking loudly, I don't find it very tasteful that a fleet would throw their lives away to save one man who doesn't necessarily need saving (people on the Citadel are still alive post-Crucible explosion, the latest version of MEHEM even added a slide to show this).

The slide was added to reinforce the twittercanon that retconned the twittercanon that the people on the Citadel were all killed when it fell to the Reapers.

And how is is bad taste when the people "throwing their lives awaywhen  A) they volunteered to do so and Shepard did in fact need saving, as Shep was still badly injured, after all..  

Shepard saved the galaxy multiple times, is it wrong for the galaxy to return the favor once?

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'll bite, how is Paragon Control "horrific?" You yourself listed not having Reaper Guardians as a con for the MEHEM.

Paragon Control is horrific because it takes away the galaxy's freedom in exchange for security that may not be all that secure (I'm sure the Leviathan's didn't expect the Catalyst to turn on them, either)  I listed them not being guardians as a con becaus there are people who think having them protecting the galaxy is a "pro" not because I necessailly think so.

It doesn't take away the galaxy's freedom. Watch the epilogue, the Reapers rebuild the relays and help rebuild the damage done on the planets. The Paragon Catalyst talks about protecting and rebuilding what was lost. That's the thematic difference between the Paragon and Renegade version. In the Renegade epilogue, the new Catalyst is a pragmatic dictator and he makes his intentions very clear. People on this forum keep equating the two variations as the same result when it's not.

It's not my favorite ending because I too believe that any nonzero probability of the Reapers being a threat is not ideal. With that said, I just don't see how it's "horrific."

From an objective standpoint, it doesn't.  Because not everyone may like MEHEM.  What it fixes is adding type which many believe should have been in the game to begin with.  The choices got removed because modding can't really add stuff, only replace.  I don't know the details of how it works, but the time with the Catalyst had to go to add the rescue.  Thus why the choice" is in installing the mod to begin with.

The rescue scene isn't needed though. I've watched the MEEM. MrFob could have simply changed the Catalyst to be an information VI.

The slide was added to reinforce the twittercanon that retconned the twittercanon that the people on the Citadel were all killed when it fell to the Reapers.

And how is is bad taste when the people "throwing their lives awaywhen  A) they volunteered to do so and Shepard did in fact need saving, as Shep was still badly injured, after all..  

Shepard saved the galaxy multiple times, is it wrong for the galaxy to return the favor once?

It's not a retcon. It's clarification, which I know is a buzz word but this word is very relevant in this case. Important characters being killed off on the Citadel was ALWAYS fan speculation and never actually canon.

It's bad taste because *my* Shepard wouldn't have wanted many people to throw their lives away to save him. Also, Shepard/Joker had no reason to believe that the Crucible would kill him and even if it did the Normandy would end up being caught in the explosion shortly after... We all know the only reason that rescue exists at all in the MEHEM is so that Shepard is on the Normandy for the memorial wall scene. However, from a narartive standpoint I don't like it. I read the MEHEM thread every now and then and from my understanding the mod will continue to evolve. Hopefully in the future it will including EMS variations and alternative scenes.

[Chashan]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'll bite, how is Paragon Control "horrific?" You yourself listed not having Reaper Guardians as a con for the MEHEM.

Paragon Control is horrific because it takes away the galaxy's freedom in exchange for security that may not be all that secure (I'm sure the Leviathan's didn't expect the Catalyst to turn on them, either)  I listed them not being guardians as a con becaus there are people who think having them protecting the galaxy is a "pro" not because I necessailly think so.

Just thinking loudly, I don't find it very tasteful that a fleet would throw their lives away to save one man who doesn't necessarily need saving (people on the Citadel are still alive post-Crucible explosion, the latest version of MEHEM even added a slide to show this).

The slide was added to reinforce the twittercanon that retconned the twittercanon that the people on the Citadel were all killed when it fell to the Reapers.

And how is is bad taste when the people "throwing their lives awaywhen  A) they volunteered to do so and Shepard did in fact need saving, as Shep was still badly injured, after all..  

Shepard saved the galaxy multiple times, is it wrong for the galaxy to return the favor once?

The latter of whom may, in fact, rather be to cover the retreat of the fleets at large.

'Hand-waving'? Maybe, but sure beats the original everyone-just-up-and-leaving-Reaphurrs-who-got-the-fastest-craft-in-the-galaxy-deal.


As to Ctrl being horrific or not...music's kind of giving it away as anything but a lovey-dovey protectorate, far as I am concerned. And yes, ambiente definitely makes a scene, especially an epilogue. Ignoring that I consider to be somewhat...daft.

It's not a retcon. It's clarification, which I know is a buzz word but
this word is very relevant in this case. Important characters being
killed off on the Citadel was ALWAYS fan speculation and never actually
canon.

Still interesting that such a simple effort as adding a slide for people surviving the take-over was apparently missed on BW's part...

Modifié par Chashan, 13 avril 2013 - 07:54 .

[jstme]

David7204 wrote...

We're going in circles here. If you don't think MEHEM is a perfect ending, then what is?

Here is my opinion - perfect ending is a result of conventional victory (after finding few technological buffs from previous cycles) over reapers (those not being buffed as they were in ME3) only achievable by using united forces of the galaxy.
This victory should come at a price of collosal losses and i am okay with Shepard dying in that scenario and even relays left non-functional - but not arrival style,obviously.
No fan mod can acomplish this, it is rewriting all the concept behind ME3. So MEHEM is not perfect. But it does enough (removes surrender to enemy's will, removes forced suicide,removes backstabbing of allies) for me to be able to replay the series again and for that i am thankfull.   

[MegaSovereign]

Ofcourse it's not a love-dovey protectorate. Reapers are Reapers. One of the reasons some people don't take Synthesis seriously is because of how the epilogue presents the Reapers as friends of society, and part of that is the happy tone of the music.

I didn't particularly find the Control epilogue music to be "evil." "Ambitious" more like, since Shepard's ambitions were fully realized by "becoming something greater."

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 13 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[Arisugawa]

David7204 wrote...

We're going in circles here. If you don't think MEHEM is a perfect ending, then what is?

In my opinion?

• You have to pay off the Crucible in some fashion. The ending cannot simply be Shepard making some crappy inspirational speech because the Crucible is a Reaper trap, and suddenly the allied Sword and Hammer forces somehow pull of the miracle victory. I use this as an example of how not to pay the Crucible off, but a reasonable explanation as to how the fleets could defeat the Reapers without the Crucible could potentially work as well, but the set-up for that prior to the fleets arriving would be difficult for a fan-mod to achieve. But it cannot simply be a speech. The reason for victory has to be believable in the context of what we know about the strength of the Reaper forces and the strength of the allied fleets. A speech is not going to do it. MEHEM does meet this requirement.
• You have to deal with "victory by concession" problem that Mass Effect 3 gave us. Victory cannot come because the Reaper God decides to gift Shepard a means to end it. It has to be earned, and it has to pay off the effort that the player has invested across the trilogy. MEHEM almost meets this requirement. It eliminates the problem of the Catalyst, but at the expense of the story as presented in Leviathan. If the Catalyst is going to be eliminated entirely, then the hanging plot point of the Leviathan's Intelligence needs to be resolved in another manner. MEHEM can fix this problem by simply altering the dialogue in Leviathan slightly so that it is implied that after the creation of Harbinger and the early Reapers that the Intelligence had served its purpose, or something similar.
• If you're going to give a reason Shepard survives aside from simply waking up in the rubble, that explanation must feel authentic and plausible. MEHEM fails here. Having the Crucible conveniently not fire for the untold amount of minutes that it would take Shepard to be rescued, while the Normandy just skips around the debris field as, by all appearances, one of TWO allied ships that haven't jumped away isn't plausible. Nor is the recycled footage of the Normandy, clearly taken from prior moments of the game, anything less than immersion breaking. In my opinion, MEHEM would be better servied by omitting this entirely. Cut out the reused dialogue, limit the recycled footage as much as possible, and show Shepard's rescue in tiny parts set against the musical score and nothing else. The whole big production with Joker doing this for the most part on his own is unnecessary.

[Asharad Hett]

David7204 wrote...

We're going in circles here. If you don't think MEHEM is a perfect ending, then what is?

An improvement

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ofcourse it's not a love-dovey protectorate. Reapers are Reapers. One of the reasons some people don't take Synthesis seriously is because of how the epilogue presents the Reapers as friends of society, and part of that is the happy tone of the music.

I didn't particularly find the Control epilogue music to be "evil." "Ambitious" more like, since Shepard's ambitions were fully realized by "becoming something greater."

The thing is that depending upon the dialogue choices we all could make (one of the potential stories BW created in creating the dialogue possibilities), certain personalities were formed within the game, for Shepard and even others.

In my game, there is no paragon choice at the end, because they are all horrific.  They cannot be reconciled with anything Shepard has said or done or what others that she respected have said and done.  They cannot be reconciled with her "world" view and her knowledge of things and her feelings.  Those are the things that make up what a person is.

Paragon control does not exist because, at least in my game, control is at direct odds with paragon intent and behavior.  It would be like saying evil good.

The problem isn't related to just one thing, it's many.  At its core it's the fact there's no questioning of what really could happen with it.  Shepard asks if the reapers will be under her control and gets an answer, but she's not told exactly (because this stupid kid AI, for anti-intelligence, can't tell her that she will still be herself).  Interesting things are happening in science today that involve just what the mind is and what makes a person a person, but science is ill-equipped to handle other questions that apply.  In fact, the emphasis has been on creating a human black box that would contain a person's thoughts and memories and then see if that could be uploaded in the future into some new body, even an android one.  This does not address or even attempt to try and understand if that is all that makes a person a person.  It does not address the interplay of emotion, physical structure, and those data files of thoughts and memories in the creation of a personality.

In control, I definitely see the cutscenes as ominous, all around.  The music in contrast with destroy and synthesis is darker.  The multiple voices that are talking along with Shepard sound ominous.  Even some of Shreaper's words are just not what Shepard would say, not in my game.  Your use of the phrase that Shepard says of becoming something greater is soooo not what a paragon Shepard would say, nor would she have this ambition you ascribe to her.  In fact, all of the dialogue in the game that leads to a full paragon, and the actions of a full paragon are so not about ambition at all.  She knew that people in the galaxy had to become something greater in working together and she saw her role as about becoming one of many, not their overseer.  Everything she did was to bring out the better natures of people that had never really pushed themselves to be anything great.  They all attained stereotypical roles in society and wouldn't go beyond those roles.  A paragon Shepard didn't want to have to be in charge.

Beyond that there still are a lot of things that are unsettling and just plain stupid about it.  The main thing is that it promotes the reapers and reaper variants as now co-existing with those they were created to annihilate.  The only thing I can do to explain this is to say look at the point of view of the story.  If I am the victim of a crime by some killer then I can't help but have my emotions all wrapped up within what has been done.  If this killer ate my family and then someone decides I must be forced to live with that killer and see that killer going on with his life, then this will have an effect on me; I won't like it.  Now multiply that times a million, a billion, a trillion.  From dead Shepard-reaper-controller's viewpoint everything is ok because she's now a part of the reaper consciousness.  From the reaper's point of view everything is ok because well who knows what if anything they are feeling if they ever felt anything.  From the perspective of people in the galaxy, WTF.  If I lived in that galaxy I'd have a couple of thoughts swirling around in my mind: they killed trillions-I want them dead.  My future is now forever stained by their presence-I want them dead or I don't want to live like this.

That's what makes it horrific.  People are forced to live into the future in a reality dictated in large part by those that were sucking the goo out of them.  They are forced to live with them as "neighbors", galactic police, and the repairers and creators of tech.  Again, the reapers will be creating the future for them.  And real people can tend to regress in the face of these two things: being forced to see these living nightmares all the time AND not being forced to do things for themselves, to adapt, to learn.

Shepard while still alive and still Shepard and as a paragon overthinks everything, questions everything, and would not do this.  Not in my game, not in my story, not based upon all the dialogue that BW wrote for her to say and that I could choose for her to say.  In fact, in my game in ME1 Shepard confronted the AI that had been stealing money on the Citadel and tries to come to a workable solution-tries to deactivate the self-destruct mechanism even though the AI says organics must always try to control or destroy synthetics.  My Shepard never believed that and her actions bear that out.

[Yestare7]

Bumped for 2 reasons;)

1. I'd love to get more votes on this

2. Just wanna highlight the last comment on the poll:

 Nyxeris wrote... I would pick MEHEM but I've got it on the Xbox. DESTROY so that Shepard lives to see another day! 

POLL:   http://social.biowar...19/polls/44634/

[Bizinha]

Yestare7 wrote...

 Nyxeris wrote... I would pick MEHEM but I've got it on the Xbox. DESTROY so that Shepard lives to see another day! 

POLL:   http://social.biowar...19/polls/44634/

This... 

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It doesn't take away the galaxy's freedom. Watch the epilogue, the Reapers rebuild the relays and help rebuild the damage done on the planets. The Paragon Catalyst talks about protecting and rebuilding what was lost. That's the thematic difference between the Paragon and Renegade version. In the Renegade epilogue, the new Catalyst is a pragmatic dictator and he makes his intentions very clear. People on this forum keep equating the two variations as the same result when it's not.

It's not my favorite ending because I too believe that any nonzero probability of the Reapers being a threat is not ideal. With that said, I just don't see how it's "horrific."

It does take away the galaxy's freedom because they are being ruled by "cold equations"  the galaxy has become the Reapers' ant farm.

not to mention the entirely plausible opssibility that Shepard will go all "Catalyst" and take its duties to some logical extreme...again...

The rescue scene isn't needed though. I've watched the MEEM. MrFob could have simply changed the Catalyst to be an information VI.

When the Catalyst's very existence is scene as an extremely weak moment in the ending, it kinda has to go.  If you want to see the Catalyst as an informational VI, I suggest you try MrFob's MEEM, which alters the Reapers' motives to be more in line with a "dark energy ending"

As to a rescue scene, not being "needed", I agree in principle that an explicit rescue scene is not needed (I've mentioned in other threads how Shepard's survival could be made plain without it).  but this is how the mod fills the gap left by removing the Catalyst's conversation.  And personally, I do like it.  And the improvements I hear about will make it even better.

It's bad taste because *my* Shepard wouldn't have wanted many people to throw their lives away to save him. Also, Shepard/Joker had no reason to believe that the Crucible would kill him and even if it did the Normandy would end up being caught in the explosion shortly after... We all know the only reason that rescue exists at all in the MEHEM is so that Shepard is on the Normandy for the memorial wall scene. However, from a narartive standpoint I don't like it. I read the MEHEM thread every now and then and from my understanding the mod will continue to evolve. Hopefully in the future it will including EMS variations and alternative scenes.

The mod shows them volunteering to stay.  it's their choice to turn back and save Shepard (and, as mentioned before, to cover the retreat of the rest of the fleet) Just as Thane chose to fight Kai Leng.  Just as Mordin chose to go up in the Shroud.  .  And while the Crucible may or may not kill Shepard, Shep is still trapped on a Citadel that's in the hands of the Reapers, likely injured (in fact, yes, badly).  And yes, history shows daring rescues of people trapped behind enemy lines

Also, the Normandy does not get caught up in the explosion, it never catches up (another benefit:  no jungle world crash).  They left in time.

And yes, there are plans for lower EMS versions of MEHEM.  Though I have only heard a cryptic line that the low EMS version will "make you not want to call it the Happy Ending  Mod anymore")