364 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So, the mass murder of slaves is a "good ending?"

Oh man. The 19th century would have loved you, OP. Mistreatment and murder of slaves was viewed as a good thing back then. To me, the absolute evidence that the Reapers are enslaved yet autonomous creatures, and the fact that the Reapers choose to be benevolent when they're freed from their slavery, makes it impossible for me to see the murder of slaves as a good thing.

I'm sorry, my sense of ethics just sees that as inhuman, in fact, it's peeing over the very meaning of being human, of having empathy and understanding. You know, the things we pride ourselves on, so that we're not monsters? That stuff? Yeah.

The Reapers can't be blamed for being enslaved to the Catalyst's programming. They don't deserve to die because they're controlled.

You're saying: If a person is being mind controlled, they should be shot in the head rather than freed from the control. Because slaves deserve to die.

That's disgusting and repugnant. That's not a happy ending.

Nevermind the death of the geth, EDI, and many more.

In fact, you'd have to be kind of ... mentally disturbed to see the death of slaves and innocent species as a thing of happiness.

The death of the geth and EDI is something I cannot countenance, thus why I go for MEHEM.

 But the destruction of the Reapers is something else.  ME3 demonstrates to us that the Reapers are not, in fact, independant beings, but are simply another form of husk, like the scions or praetorians, only much much larger and more powerful.  You're not killing them any more than you're killing a corpse.  What they were died millenia ago, at least.  Ending the reapers is simply putting old ghosts to rest.

[Iakus]

Arisugawa wrote...

Until MEHEM does something other than have Joker fly the Normandy around (in recycled footage) unmolested for the untold amount of minutes it would take to find and rescue Shepard while the Crucible conveniently sits at "armed" but not firing while the rest of the fleet (minus one helpful ship) has already jumped away, I can't support it.

I'm all for having a happier ending, but that isn't it for me.

From what I understand, the recycled footage something that is being worked on.  It's actually supposed to be an entire battle group that stayed behind.  It's actually supposed to be a number of ships, led by the SSV Nuremburg.

As for the Crucible sitting there...well...something that powerful has a charge-up time, right? 

[Xilizhra]

So, positivity, happy endings, and dead Reapers. That to me is the definition of Mass Effect.

Strange, I find I'm far happier without dead Reapers.

But the destruction of the Reapers is something else.  ME3 demonstrates
to us that the Reapers are not, in fact, independant beings, but are
simply another form of husk, like the scions or praetorians, only much
much larger and more powerful.  You're not killing them any more than
you're killing a corpse.  What they were died millenia ago, at least.
 Ending the reapers is simply putting old ghosts to rest.

Synthesis salvages their minds still; they're present, just suppressed (though they're clearly still far more intelligent than husk variants). They can still be brought out of hostility towards the galaxy as a whole.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 avril 2013 - 05:13 .

[Astartes Marine]

You know, I was surprised that it took as long as it did for Wolfie to come in here with his bleeding heart "Reapers are just innocent victims" garbage.

iakus wrote...
But the destruction of the Reapers is something else. ME3 demonstrates to us that the Reapers are not, in fact, independant beings, but are simply another form of husk, like the scions or praetorians, only much much larger and more powerful. You're not killing them any more than you're killing a corpse. What they were died millenia ago, at least. Ending the reapers is simply putting old ghosts to rest.

There's some kind of mind to them, Nazara and Harbinger both have personalities...but that could just be the preprogrammed Reaper intelligence talking. Either way I'm with laying the old ones to rest. Shame I can't do it with a Bolter and Chainsword as well as an Exterminatus fleet.

iakus wrote...
From what I understand, the recycled footage
something that is being worked on.  It's actually supposed to be an
entire battle group that stayed behind.  It's actually supposed to be a
number of ships, led by the SSV Nuremburg.

Is there some significance to the lead ship's name or is it just a coincidence?

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 06 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[Xilizhra]

There's some kind of mind to them, Nazara and Harbinger both have personalities...but that could just be the preprogrammed Reaper intelligence talking. Either way I'm with laying the old ones to rest. Shame I can't do it with a Bolter and Chainsword as well as an Exterminatus fleet.

Go back and rot with your False Emperor.

[dreamgazer]

Wait, what's all this about rising? Is MEHEM some sort of yeast?

[Yestare7]

 
@Auldwulf: Please don't start that here. 
@Everyone: Thanks for keeping this one civil!!:)

[MrFob]

Astartes Marine wrote...

You know, I was surprised that it took as long as it did for Wolfie to come in here with his bleeding heart "Reapers are just innocent victims" garbage.

iakus wrote...
But the destruction of the Reapers is something else. ME3 demonstrates to us that the Reapers are not, in fact, independant beings, but are simply another form of husk, like the scions or praetorians, only much much larger and more powerful. You're not killing them any more than you're killing a corpse. What they were died millenia ago, at least. Ending the reapers is simply putting old ghosts to rest.

There's some kind of mind to them, Nazara and Harbinger both have personalities...but that could just be the preprogrammed Reaper intelligence talking. Either way I'm with laying the old ones to rest. Shame I can't do it with a Bolter and Chainsword as well as an Exterminatus fleet.

I wonder if this is about MEHEM? Because the reapers "enslavement" is only specified by the Catalyst, who is no longer there. My interpretation was that this aspect of the story was removed with the star kid.

iakus wrote...
From what I understand, the recycled footage
something that is being worked on.  It's actually supposed to be an
entire battle group that stayed behind.  It's actually supposed to be a
number of ships, led by the SSV Nuremburg.

Is there some significance to the lead ship's name or is it just a coincidence?

Originally, I just did the mod as a technical proof of concept. I just put the whole cutscene in as sort of a joke (which is why Joker goes "glad you're in charge" and all that).. Nuremberg is the closest larger city to the place I am from (though I don't live there anymore) and I thought it'd be fun to have a cruiser named after it. Had no idea this would go so far.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MrFob wrote...

Originally, I just did the mod as a technical proof of concept. I just put the whole cutscene in as sort of a joke (which is why Joker goes "glad you're in charge" and all that).. Nuremberg is the closest larger city to the place I am from (though I don't live there anymore) and I thought it'd be fun to have a cruiser named after it. Had no idea this would go so far.

Hollywood and America still love to German bash.

[wright1978]

zed888 wrote...

I'm not sure the numbers for MEHEM mean all those people just wanted a happy ending, despite the name. If I play to the end again, I'll install it first, but because it removes StarJar, not to make the ending happier. If anything I thought the EC epilogues were too optimistic as they were (except maybe control, with that creepy "I will lead an army none will dare oppose" stuff). And I'm not interested in Citadel.

Yep i have MEHEM installed mainly because it removes the cancer from the game that is called bratalyst. Things like actually delivering closure for live Shep too unlike EC. Experiencing MEHEM makes me want to play the series again rather than feeling a numb anger at the trainwreck of a delivery of an ending. So thanks Mr Fob.

[Reorte]

Since all MEHEM does is remove as much nonsense as possible and still have something happen (sorting it out better would require redoing the entire game), as well as provide entirely plausible Shepard surviving for definite (instead of some incredibly unsatisfying rubbish that only makes sense because "well, it wouldn't be in otherwise") then I can't see any reason not to install it.

The only problem I've got is that it doesn't feel like it fixes the problem simply because it's unofficial. The problem is still there but I've ignored it.

I still wish that the Crucible / Catalyst wasn't a simple Reaper off button; I despise those, such complete and utter sudden U-turns in the fortune of war always make me cringe but again, fixing that is beyond what MEHEM can reasonably do.

[Reorte]

zed888 wrote...

I'm not sure the numbers for MEHEM mean all those people just wanted a happy ending, despite the name. If I play to the end again, I'll install it first, but because it removes StarJar, not to make the ending happier. If anything I thought the EC epilogues were too optimistic as they were (except maybe control, with that creepy "I will lead an army none will dare oppose" stuff). And I'm not interested in Citadel.

I did feel that Shepard inevitably dying was incredibly cruel to the characters I'd come to know and love, and the fact that it's so arbitrary makes it worse (I don't buy "hero dies to save the day" on large-scale events, it's cheesy, unconvincing, and implausible), and the breath scene and silly plaque thing don't offer any convincing catharsis and signs of happiness for those characters, even if you know they'll get it eventually. So yes, I wanted a happy ending from that point of view.

Having said that I'd have been entirely fine with it being put into the context of all that has been lost too - I agree with the EC epilogues there. The EC's problem is it's good (too much so really) on the level that we've less emotional connection to and much less so on the level where we have. If the Crucible had provided the edge over the Reapers but there was still a lot more fighting to go, seeing planets getting wasted and millions more dying, that would've been good, as well as getting somewhat past the stupid Instant Win button problem.

[robertthebard]

So MEHEM fixed the DeM of surviving getting nuked by Harbinger?  No?  Damn, that explains why I haven't even looked at it twice, eh?  The Lazarus DeM was enough for me.

[Reorte]

robertthebard wrote...

So MEHEM fixed the DeM of surviving getting nuked by Harbinger?  No?  Damn, that explains why I haven't even looked at it twice, eh?  The Lazarus DeM was enough for me.

Come on, it's an unoffcial mod, there's only so much it can plausibly fix. Just because it doesn't solve everything doesn't mean it's not an improvement. Not sure why you're calling it a DeM either (instead of just "silly").

Modifié par Reorte, 06 avril 2013 - 11:22 .

[ruggly]

Here they come to wreck the daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

So MEHEM fixed the DeM of surviving getting nuked by Harbinger?  No?  Damn, that explains why I haven't even looked at it twice, eh?  The Lazarus DeM was enough for me.

There's only so much you can do with a fan made mod.  In a perfect world, the entirety of Priority: Earth would be reworked, Kai Leng would seem threatening, and Ash would have a real uniform.  But there are limits.

At least in MEHEM, Harbinger gets to say "You have failed" as Shep gets blasted 

[Clayless]

Which part is the happy part? Surviving? Or genocide and surviving?

[Iakus]

Survival
Reunion
EDI alive
Geth alive.

It's still bittersweet, but with a better balance between bitter and sweet.

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

Survival
Reunion
EDI alive
Geth alive.

It's still bittersweet, but with a better balance between bitter and sweet.

So it's victory at no cost?

[Asharad Hett]

Robosexual wrote...

Which part is the happy part?

The part where we skip starchild.

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Survival
Reunion
EDI alive
Geth alive.

It's still bittersweet, but with a better balance between bitter and sweet.

So it's victory at no cost?

If by "no cost" you mean "no arbitrary tragedy tacked on to the end by a certain ghost-child" then yes.

But Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and numerous colonies still fell to the Reapers.  Deaths you witness ed up to and including Anderson still happen.  Several ships get blown up by the Reapers covering the Normandy's rescue efforts.  And the relays are still badly damaged

oh, and the game ends with Shepard adding Anderson's name to the Normandy's memorial.

[dreamgazer]

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Survival
Reunion
EDI alive
Geth alive.

It's still bittersweet, but with a better balance between bitter and sweet.

So it's victory at no cost?

I'm not a supporter of MEHEM myself, but I wouldn't call the death of Anderson and the troops on the already-attacked planets "no cost". 

[spirosz]

All this "rise" talk is making think Batman. Where's Garrus?

[AresKeith]

Losing Anderson is a terrible cost IMO

Now we to make Kai Leng into Bane from DKR or Retribution Leng lol

[dreamgazer]

spirosz wrote...

All this "rise" talk is making think Batman. Where's Garrus?

Baking some bread with this MEHEM yeast, probably.