195 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

 This is particulairly in writing but I loathe when characters have lines which pretty much nudge you and say "YOU DID THE WRONG/RIGHT CHOICE, BUD". Say you're given a choice between sparing someone or killing them, you spare them and later down the line, he comes around the corner and yells "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SPARED MY LIFE, BUDDY".

Maybe you killed him and down the line, you learn he's a traitor and everyone goes "THANK GOD YOU KILLED HIM! WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT'VE HAPPENED".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 avril 2013 - 06:52 .

[Fiacre]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Indeed.

But just thinking about it, though--immersion is basically how much the game is pulling ME into it. And for role-playing, that's a problem--because I'M not in the game, my character is.

Thus, if the game is pulling ME in, convincing ME to react as I would, as opposed to my character...mightn't that be considered a problem for role-playing?

I can only speak for myself, of course, but for me it actually helps get into the mindset of the character I'm playing.

For example, when I wasdoing the Deep Roads with one character who felt bad for Hespith and Laryn and the rest of Branka's house, but didn't have a big emotional reaction to it, I didn't. I was immersed into the game, but i was also in the mindset of my character. On my next playthrough my Warden felt terrible about it and it played a large part in his decision to  side with Caridin instead of Branka, and as a result, I felt terrible about it.

So in my case, it actually helps role-playing, since I have a much harder time getting into my character's head when I'm not immersed. (Which isn't that important for the big decisions, since often I already know what he's going to choose when I start the playthrough, but it's important for little things and for conversations. Otherwise I gravitate towards doing what I would do, and often end up far too nice for the character I was playing because I don't wanna ****** people off, even if my character would.)

That aside, I'd personally also consider little atmospheric things, like not having insurmountable waist high fences, people actually aging over the course of nearly a decade, fitting background sounds, well designed landscapes etc. to count towards immersion, and that stuff simply makes things generally more enjoyable (and keeps me from wondering why my character can't make larger steps or climb over tiny obstacles instead of actually paying attention to the game).

[schalafi]

I try not to get too hung up in details, there's a lot of them in DA2 which are kind of baffling, like the dead bodies lying around, or the people/ dwarves wandering aimlessly, or standing in one place in Hightown for years. I'd rather concentrate on the action, the characters, and the story, otherwise the petty details might drive me crazy!

[BouncyFrag]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 This is particulairly in writing but I loathe when characters have lines which pretty much nudge you and say "YOU DID THE WRONG/RIGHT CHOICE, BUD". Say you're given a choice between sparing someone or killing them, you spare them and later down the line, he comes around the corner and yells "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SPARED MY LIFE, BUDDY".

Maybe you killed him and down the line, you learn he's a traitor and everyone goes "THANK GOD YOU KILLED HIM! WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT'VE HAPPENED".

In ME2 the same companions will support and disagree on what you do with the collector base dependant on who is in your party at the end of the game as well as if you talk to your companions after the suicide mission. Granted, this is a small nitpick I only noticed after finishing the game multiple times.

[BouncyFrag]

Flamingdropbear wrote...

Filament wrote...

1. Flaming drop-bears

Don't set fire to Eucalyptus trees without vegimite behind your ears.

[Saibh]

Immersion, I think, is actually a video-game oriented term more than anything else. Oh, yes, you can be immersed in a story, immersed in a movie, and so on. But when people talk about being 'immersed' in a video game, particularly a BioWare video game, they're talking about feeling like they're a part of the world. That they are their character.

But immersion is a very tricky concept. What breaks one player's immersion doesn't bother another's. To what length does a developer have to go to feel as if every single player is never going to feel like they're playing a game rather than enjoying an experience? On this very forum we have people who feel like staple aspects of DAII, like the leveling system, break their immersion.

So I wouldn't presume to lecture BioWare on how not to break my immersion. I think it's a pointless exercise. It is much easier to point to something from previous games and say "don't do that", but that's only so helpful.

As a side note, I feel like the single most important aspect of atmosphere and immersion (that is also overlooked) is sound design. Impressive sound design can make all the difference when you feel like you're in a world and a part of it. I think it can't be understated.

[Fast Jimmy]

Saibh wrote...

Immersion, I think, is actually a video-game oriented term more than anything else. Oh, yes, you can be immersed in a story, immersed in a movie, and so on. But when people talk about being 'immersed' in a video game, particularly a BioWare video game, they're talking about feeling like they're a part of the world. That they are their character.

But immersion is a very tricky concept. What breaks one player's immersion doesn't bother another's. To what length does a developer have to go to feel as if every single player is never going to feel like they're playing a game rather than enjoying an experience? On this very forum we have people who feel like staple aspects of DAII, like the leveling system, break their immersion.

So I wouldn't presume to lecture BioWare on how not to break my immersion. I think it's a pointless exercise. It is much easier to point to something from previous games and say "don't do that", but that's only so helpful.

As a side note, I feel like the single most important aspect of atmosphere and immersion (that is also overlooked) is sound design. Impressive sound design can make all the difference when you feel like you're in a world and a part of it. I think it can't be understated.

I'd like to echo this (pun intended). So many video games focus on visuals, visuals, visuals that they forget that sound, especially sound outside of the actual soundtrack, is a very powerful influence on the feel of a game or a particular scene. A city can seem much more alive with ambient merchants hawking wares, or hustle and bustle of people or animals. A view of the ocean can be made that much more realistic with the sound of the waves crashing, or seagulls crowing. A forest that has ambient animal noises can suddenly turn to suspense if all that sound goes quiet right before an attack. Even if we don't see this all of these things, but can still hear it, it does wonders to make a game feel more real and add to immersion.

[Fiacre]

EntropicAngel wrote...

It sounds like others approach role-playing differently than I do.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying.

Out of curiousity, how do you do it? Do you plan it all out beforehand and "control" everything the character does?

I usually mix that with what I've described above. Whenever I get too controlling, it usually gets boring for me, and when I don't keep enough control, but just go in with a vague idea and let the character form itself as I go along, it usually turns out a complete mess.


And I agree with Saibh on sound design. Good sound design can do amazing things.

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote...

[...]

For example, when I was doing the Deep Roads with one character who felt bad for Hespith and Laryn and the rest of Branka's house, but didn't have a big emotional reaction to it, I didn't. I was immersed into the game, but i was also in the mindset of my character. On my next playthrough my Warden felt terrible about it and it played a large part in his decision to side with Caridin instead of Branka, and as a result, I felt terrible about it.

So in my case, it actually helps role-playing, since I have a much harder time getting into my character's head when I'm not immersed. (Which isn't that important for the big decisions, since often I already know what he's going to choose when I start the playthrough, but it's important for little things and for conversations. Otherwise I gravitate towards doing what I would do, and often end up far too nice for the character I was playing because I don't wanna ****** people off, even if my character would.)

Yes, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about as well when I talk about sharing in the emotional reactions of a character who's distinct from me.

Modifié par jillabender, 06 avril 2013 - 07:41 .

[Sutekh]

Saibh wrote...

Immersion, I think, is actually a video-game oriented term more than anything else. Oh, yes, you can be immersed in a story, immersed in a movie, and so on. But when people talk about being 'immersed' in a video game, particularly a BioWare video game, they're talking about feeling like they're a part of the world. That they are their character.

The way I define it (since we all have our own personal definition), applies to books and movies too, but more so to games because of the interactive part. And I'd define it better by its opposite: I stop being immersed when I'm reminded that I'm dealing with a medium, and not the story's reality. When an actor overplays, and I realize they're Joe Hollywood acting (as opposed to Jim Character living the plot), when something in an author's style rubs me the wrong way, or when there's a sp&g error, or when I notice the grass hasn't grown in seven years in Kirkwall and that corpses are in an eternal state of conservation. That's when I realize I'm looking at a screen or reading a book, and actually not living anything except back-ache for remaining sitting too long

For me it's absolutely distinct from roleplaying. In p&p, I never stop RPGing (except during breaks, 'cos I've my limits), but I stop being immersed the second we have to roll the dice (and then get back into it once the technical part is over). It doesn't prevent me from feeling emotions through my PC (anger and frustration, generally, given my luck), but I'm still detached and not in-world, whatever that world is.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fiacre wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

It sounds like others approach role-playing differently than I do.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying.

Out of curiousity, how do you do it? Do you plan it all out beforehand and "control" everything the character does?

I usually mix that with what I've described above. Whenever I get too controlling, it usually gets boring for me, and when I don't keep enough control, but just go in with a vague idea and let the character form itself as I go along, it usually turns out a complete mess.


And I agree with Saibh on sound design. Good sound design can do amazing things.

I can't speak for EA, but I form a character in my head. Such a character wouldn't decide ahead of time if they would sympathize with one group or another, but an overall mindset and apprioach to things.

I couldn't create a character who I would say "this character will sympathize with Hespith and Branka" but I could create a character that places human life and the sacrifices others have made to achieve something. Such a character would still have a quandry at the Anvil, though, since the sacrifice of others (Branka's house) as well as the countless other deaths that the darkspawn would inflict without the golems is put against the sacrifice of the life/soul to animate the golem.

But again... I wouldn't know ahead of time if my character would relate to another character or not. Or, at the least, I wouldn't plan that part of their personality out in advance. After all, as I'm sure Sylvius would say, how would our character know who they will meet, or what they will encounter? They can't know, so we, as a player, must act as if our character does not know.

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote...

[...]

For example, I had a character, a mage, that was initially very mean to the point of cruelty, and almost depressed and a fatalist...if that makes any sense. But I had planned for him to refuse to do the Dark Ritual and take the ultimate sacrifice. However, quite outside of my intentions, he and Morrigan struck it off, and he grew to love her. Consequentially his world view grew a bit brighter, he grew a bit kinder, and he did the Dark Ritual.

My endgame state completely changed from what I'd intended, purely because I let go of the reins, so to speak, and let this horse run free.

I've had similar experiences of my characters growing and surprising me in my playthroughs. That mage sounds like a very fascinating character!

Modifié par jillabender, 06 avril 2013 - 08:12 .

[Wulfram]

What I think breaks my "immersion" is when I feel like I'm making my character do something that makes no sense in the logic of the world.

I think what bugs me the most lately is finding an occasion when it actually makes sense to do the sidequests. There's always been a bit of odd CRPG logic where you tend to leave the major quests till later, but what seems to have developed more recently is a real taboo against there being any occasions where the player doesn't have an urgent main quest. So whenever I'm doing anything other than a main quest, there's the nagging feeling that I'm being a bad roleplayer by doing this.

I suppose I could be a Good Roleplayer and just focus on the Main Quest, but then I'll miss half the game. Or if it's Skyrim, more like 9/10ths of the game.

[jack253]

Flamingdropbear wrote...

The Hands - by the Ancestors the hands in both DA games were either action figure grips, unmoving and in the uncanny valley, out of place on the body (Bethany had the hands of a 59 year old washer woman on the body of a teenager)

true, especially in DA2 I could stop being creeped out by how unnatural the hands look

[Allan Schumacher]

Indeed.

But just thinking about it, though--immersion is basically how much the game is pulling ME into it. and for role-playing, that's a problem--because I'M not in the game, my character is.

Thus, if the game is pulling ME in, convincing ME to react as I would, as opposed to my character...mightn't that be considered a problem for role-playing?

As the active controller of the character, as well as a perpetual observer, I don't really buy in to the idea of complete separation of game player and game character.

As EntropicAngel, you may not feel any pity for an NPC, and it's perfectly fine for you to conclude that your character does feel pity for NPC. However, inextricably when you conclude "this PC will feel pity for the NPC," it is impossible to completely disassociate EntropicAngel from the guiding influence that determines how the PC will display such pity (which might even be in a way that EntropicAngel would not normally display pity as well). Unless the player character becomes autonomous and no longer dependent on your input, I do not believe that this separation will ever be 100%


As a game player, you are a constant observer. If the game setting is no longer playing out in a way that you think is appropriate for the character you have created, I could argue this breaks "immersion" for you (it's part of the nebulous meaning of immersion however. Ironically this is probably an argument for why "immersion" isn't a very good word.

If you're playing a game and you conclude an NPC is someone that your PC would not like, and the only viable responses by your PC are some form of "I think your awesome" and to support the NPC, I think this would undermine your suspension of disbelief and frustrate and disappoint you. Or do you disagree?

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm not into roleplaying, but I have tried it out when bored. I can accept these things as a necessary weasel because I have no problem reminding myself this is a game.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think it's interesting how different people "roleplay."

I usually try to put "myself" in the role with whatever traits I have decided. I feel a need to imagine that it's myself with those traits (those traits may not be traits I actually possess. In fact, rarely have I been able to manipulate the Force in real life!), and I try to imagine what the emotional context of what "I" am feeling when events happen.

I draw upon my personal experiences to try to understand how that emotion must feel, sometimes I can come up with something fine (it's not hard for me to feel sorrow for the loss of my sibling in DA2, for example), and other times I just need to make my best guess.

It works for me as it helps my emotional connection to the game, and any game that can illicit genuine emotional responses out of me (for in game reasons) are typically games I hold in high regard (looking at you The Walking Dead).

[jillabender]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's interesting how different people "roleplay."

I usually try to put "myself" in the role with whatever traits I have decided. I feel a need to imagine that it's myself with those traits (those traits may not be traits I actually possess. In fact, rarely have I been able to manipulate the Force in real life!), and I try to imagine what the emotional context of what "I" am feeling when events happen.

I draw upon my personal experiences to try to understand how that emotion must feel, sometimes I can come up with something fine (it's not hard for me to feel sorrow for the loss of my sibling in DA2, for example), and other times I just need to make my best guess.

It works for me as it helps my emotional connection to the game, and any game that can illicit genuine emotional responses out of me (for in game reasons) are typically games I hold in high regard (looking at you The Walking Dead).

Very well put - you captured what I was trying to get across in describing my preferred way of role-playing better than I could. Just like my character might be able to do things that I can't, he or she might have a quite different personality from mine, but I still like to try to inhabit the role of the character, as much as I can.

Modifié par jillabender, 06 avril 2013 - 08:36 .