195 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Good point.

Immersion is a personal thing. I just get annoyed when people get "holier than though" and say "This bow is not realistic" on one breath while playing a fantasy game on another.


Spikes work for me because I see bows as a higlhy specific kind of staff. To me The spikes have the same function as a crystal or a hala head on a staff. Magic focus.

And bow strings are invisible to me without my glasses 

the spikes are there for the same reason the darkspawn armors have spikes etc. Because it would make them look kewl and awsome.

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Good point.

Immersion is a personal thing. I just get annoyed when people get "holier than though" and say "This bow is not realistic" on one breath while playing a fantasy game.

I get equally annoyed when people pull the "fantasy game" card and expect nothing to have to be explained because "it's a fantasy game, dummy." There are still rules and logic in the universe. There have to be for anything to work. Yes, improbable and impossible things happen, like my PC getting set on fire and impaled by Qunari weapons and I'm not only not dead but it doesn't even hinder my ability to run and fight. Nobody's arguing that improbable and impossible things happen. One poster said, "it breaks immersion when I don't see a bowstring." Anything holier than thou in that post was simply read into by you.

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Good point.

Immersion is a personal thing. I just get annoyed when people get "holier than though" and say "This bow is not realistic" on one breath while playing a fantasy game.

I get equally annoyed when people pull the "fantasy game" card and expect nothing to have to be explained because "it's a fantasy game, dummy." There are still rules and logic in the universe. There have to be for anything to work. Yes, improbable and impossible things happen, like my PC getting set on fire and impaled by Qunari weapons and I'm not only not dead but it doesn't even hinder my ability to run and fight. Nobody's arguing that improbable and impossible things happen. One poster said, "it breaks immersion when I don't see a bowstring." Anything holier than thou in that post was simply read into by you.

I hear you but the poster who I was responding to wasn't the bowstring one - i even agree, if i wasn't blind as a bat and had noticed the bow lacked a bowstrring I'd probably do a double take too. I posted in response to the "****** to spikes" guy.

As for the lore, I added this to an old post but it should be here. IMHO, it is all "there" already.

Magic artifacts - eluvian for instance - can be used by non mages. So a magic staff that can be used to conjure magic particles that can be then used by higly trained individuals ? Yup, we have several examples.

Recap:

• Magic objects conjured out of thin air and hurled by magic force ? Yup, fireballs
• Wooden pointy stick that can be used to aim spells ? Yup, staffs
• Wooden pointy sticks that have a particular side effect on magic ? Yup staffs have stats
• Nonsensical add-ons to said magic wooden pointy things ? Yup staffs use feathers, crystals, stones, wood carved animals
• Magic artifacts that allow non mages to cast ONE specific spell ? Yup, Eluvian magic mirrors were used by non-magic people (Talem)

Sebastian Vael's bow is a wooden pointy contraption with nonsensical spikes added. For it to also allow Sebastian to use ONE specific spell, namely conjure arrows out of tin air and hurl them at the direction the bow is pointing is not really that much of a stretch. IMHO, of course.

IMHO, Vael's and Varrics bows magic powers are there on lore. Just no one bothered to write a codex yet, I'll get Brother Genivity to write it next time him and I chat about lore (in my dreams  )

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 avril 2013 - 08:47 .

[Renmiri1]

PPS: And this thing about "magic is everywhere" on Thedas is not that far fetched. When a warrior can stun everyone within 10 meters just by shoving a sword on the ground, what is going on in the game ?

a) It is there because it looks kewl
Crowd Control moves in combat are fun and interesting
c) This and similar moves make combat somewhat balanced, otherwise warriors and rogues could just surrender to anything and anyone with an ounce of magic

But how does it "work" ? You can simply assume it works and anything goes in fantasy but no one is advocating for it here, least of all, me.

So a "stun wave" being triggered by a metal sword on the ground has to have some reasoning behind it. Odds are that Magic is in action there. Is the sword a magical artifact ? Is it the warrior ? Both ?

Magic in Thedas exists on a lot more places than in mages and the fade. I suspect magic is everywhere and normal people are getting more magic as the time passes - like the Hanged Man drunk says. But no, it isn't on canon.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 avril 2013 - 09:01 .

[Malanek]

Biggest immersion breaker for me in DA2 was the maps and the reuse of them. The most annoying thing was that even though the tile sets were reused and rotated, it would have worked "OK" if they had fixed the minimap to make it less obvious and completely removed doors instead of making them unopenable.

[The Spirit of Dance]

The biggest immersion breaker is the pause menu. I mean its so unrealistic to be able to stop everything and see a giant list with stuff like save game and load game on it. It just makes me aware that I'm playing a game.

[SinerAthin]

- Making people explode into a gore-tastic explosions when I hit them with my sword. Wat?
- Stats on items. I mean, I know it's a nice sword, but why does it make me stronger?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 07 avril 2013 - 09:55 .

[Fast Jimmy]

One of my biggest immersion breakers? Spelling and grammar typos...

[slimgrin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

One of my biggest immersion breakers? Spelling and grammar typos...

Lol, you beat me to it.

[bondari reloads.]

Immersion works differently if games are compared to art. Representational acting on stage always assumes the cast acting in a virtual reality and even if the character is not aware of this, the gamer/actor certainly is. Immersion is achieved by other means just as both the stage and game mechanics have their restrictions.
'Journey' is a good example I think. The same immersion does not work for DA, but there are other means to compensate the abundance of geological mayhem (maybe 'twas Flemeth).
Though I find it sort of awesome that a geologist would choose to play a dwarf, dunno exactly why...

[Rawgrim]

SinerAthin wrote...

- Making people explode into a gore-tastic explosions when I hit them with my sword. Wat?
- Stats on items. I mean, I know it's a nice sword, but why does it make me stronger?

Yes. and stuff that makes you immune to critical hits. Critical hit = damage to a vital area. If you can`t get any damage like that, you are basically immune to getting killed in a fight. if nothing vital ever gets damaged, you won`t die.

[Renmiri1]

MMm.. No that is not how crit works. And how stats work

Any blow can be parried or dodged, in it's entirety or partially. And any blow has a lower and upper range of possible damage.

Critical Hit % is how likely your blow won't be parried and dodged, or is a higher likelihood of getting the upper range of damage.

Is a way to represent bluntness and speed of weapons, not a magical "hit him on the kidney" free pass

Immunity to crit is representing speed, agility and ability to dodge/ parry, as well as toughness of the armor. Leather can't be crit immune because of toughness but maybe it makes you so fast compared to people on heavy armors swinging blunt maces that you will never get hit full on.

And maybe said leather armor has an obsidian plate protecting your kidneys, making you immune to kidney stabs 


A sword does not make you stronger but a well designed ballanced mace, flail or axe lets you take advantage of it's weight to enhance your blows. A good example ? A flail. When you hit, it's not only your personal strength that is powering the blow. The metal ball and the chain size plus the twirling motion you used before hitting all increase that force.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 avril 2013 - 10:25 .

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

MMm.. No that is not how crit works. And how stats work

Any blow can be parried or dodged, in it's entirety or partially. And any blow has a lower and upper range of possible damage.

Critical Hit % is how likely your blow won't be parried and dodged, or is a higher likelihood of getting the upper range of damage.

Is a way to represent bluntness and speed of weapons, not a magical "hit him on the kidney" free pass

Immunity to crit is representing speed, agility and ability to dodge/ parry, as well as toughness of the armor. Leather can't be crit immune because of toughness but maybe it makes you so fast compared to people on heavy armors swinging blunt maces that you will never get hit full on.

And maybe said leather armor has an obsidian plate protecting your kidneys, making you immune to kidney stabs 


A sword does not make you stronger but a well designed ballanced mace, flail or axe lets you take advantage of it's weight to enhance your blows. A good example ?

Critical hit = a hit. Its in the name.

[Sutekh]

Malanek999 wrote...

Biggest immersion breaker for me in DA2 was the maps and the reuse of them. The most annoying thing was that even though the tile sets were reused and rotated, it would have worked "OK" if they had fixed the minimap to make it less obvious and completely removed doors instead of making them unopenable.

Are you kidding? Those doors were awesome. They were mini-wormholes and proof that Thedas technology is in fact much more advanced than we're made to believe. You got that closed door in cave A, but when it opened, the passage beyond was in cave B, four or five miles from cave A. That was incredibly ingenious and ahead of anything science is able to do.

(I hated those doors. Not for immersion, but because as a compulsive completionist, I just can't have a door that doesn't open in a given dungeon. I. Just. Can't. I mean, seriously, what kind of sadist makes an RPG, knowing cRPG players, and put doors that won't open? In caves you can't even revisit most of the time? )

Rawgrim wrote...

Yes. and stuff that makes you immune to critical hits. Critical hit = damage to a vital area. If you can`t get any damage like that, you are basically immune to getting killed in a fight. if nothing vital ever gets damaged, you won`t die.

Accurate or not, that's the kind of thing I absolutely don't care, immersion-wise. Just as the spiked bows, exploding bodies and such. Those things are part of the rules, the internal system, and I accept them. I walk into the game knowing there will be such things.

It's like watching a disaster flick: I don't care about the science. I know it will probably be awful. If I started to question every "send nukes into the planet that's about to hit us to blow it up" and such, I wouldn't enjoy myself at all. It's when the internal system has glitches that I'm pulled out of the game / movie / book world.

Now, if DA was absolutely realistic weapon-wise, then the presence of a single spiked bow would break my immersion, because it would break the established rules.

[Renmiri1]

Kevlar body armor makes you immune to deadly hits on your torso. Can easily be described as an armor that makes you immune to critical hits.

Ya no immunity to head shots or lower body shots but that is a technology limitation we have on RL, in a game you would probably be able to equip crit immune helmet and boots.

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Kevlar body armor makes you immune to deadly hits on your torso. Can easily be described as an armor that makes you immune to critical hits.

Ya no immunity to head shots or lower body shots but that is a technology limitation we have on RL, in a game you would probably be able to equip crit immune helmet and boots.

If you are immune to critical hits in combat, you are immune to being killed in combat.

[Renmiri1]

meh.. you are getting into semantics.. Of course in RL no immunity is absolute and people with kevlar body armor die or get maimed often ()

On a game though, it is purely dependent on your headcanon and the game devs codex

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 avril 2013 - 10:53 .

[Allan Schumacher]

RPG rules are abstractions and trying to equate them to our physical world is always going to run into snags.

In an RPG, a player that is "immune to critical hits" can still die in combat, so any assertion that a player that is "immune to critical hits cannot be killed in combat" is easily shown to be false.

Stating that Kevlar Armor makes you immune to deadly hits on your torso isn't actually correct either (and is easily shown to be false in reality as well), but then it goes back to the idea that RPG game rules are just an abstract model.

Getting caught up in the semantics of it will just lead to continued talking in circles.

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Kevlar body armor makes you immune to deadly hits on your torso. Can easily be described as an armor that makes you immune to critical hits.

Ya no immunity to head shots or lower body shots but that is a technology limitation we have on RL, in a game you would probably be able to equip crit immune helmet and boots.

Kevlar is certainly unique, but by no means is anyone "immune" to deadly hits. And since you're trying to relate this to a fantasy world without bullets, Kevlar doesn't stop knives. It deforms a bullet because it's blunt, whereas a knife's sharp edge can penetrate it.

[SinerAthin]

Monica21 wrote...

Kevlar is certainly unique, but by no means is anyone "immune" to deadly hits. And since you're trying to relate this to a fantasy world without bullets, Kevlar doesn't stop knives. It deforms a bullet because it's blunt, whereas a knife's sharp edge can penetrate it.

I wanna see you try to stab through a Kevlar vest xD

[Monica21]

SinerAthin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Kevlar is certainly unique, but by no means is anyone "immune" to deadly hits. And since you're trying to relate this to a fantasy world without bullets, Kevlar doesn't stop knives. It deforms a bullet because it's blunt, whereas a knife's sharp edge can penetrate it.

I wanna see you try to stab through a Kevlar vest xD

What kind of Kevlar vest are you talking about? Your basic Kevlar vest is layers and layers of fiber designed to distribute the blunt force of a bullet. It has to be specially treated to withstand a stab or slash.

[Allan Schumacher]

SinerAthin wrote...

I wanna see you try to stab through a Kevlar vest xD

There have been Darwin Awards given out to people testing out how knife proof kevlar vests are.

[Sol Downer]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

SinerAthin wrote...

I wanna see you try to stab through a Kevlar vest xD

There have been Darwin Awards given out to people testing out how knife proof kevlar vests are.

Wow, that's...not really funny at all, actually.
~Raven Hawke - 2012-2013

[Rawgrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

RPG rules are abstractions and trying to equate them to our physical world is always going to run into snags.

In an RPG, a player that is "immune to critical hits" can still die in combat, so any assertion that a player that is "immune to critical hits cannot be killed in combat" is easily shown to be false.

Stating that Kevlar Armor makes you immune to deadly hits on your torso isn't actually correct either (and is easily shown to be false in reality as well), but then it goes back to the idea that RPG game rules are just an abstract model.

Getting caught up in the semantics of it will just lead to continued talking in circles.

If a character is has 100 percent protection on all his vital organs, he is imune to critical hits. Meaning he can`t\\it shouldn`t be possible to kill him in combat. If he can still be killed in combat, despite being immune, it makes no sense whatsoever.