222 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

Wulfram wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, they certainly didn't try very hard in the few thousand years they had.

They just didn't have a prothean available, which was what was needed.

They still managed to nick info from the beacon without Prothean help for centuries- hence their advancement so they obviously didn't need one.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Leng is supposed to be on-par with Shepard. He's supposed to be dangerous. That's not going to come across very well if he needs three gunships and a battalion of soldiers to make it an even fight.

. When I fought him Leng did not move from his spot.  I overloaded his shields repeatedly and he never budged from his spot and just kept recharging his shields.  Then all of a sudden he drops this and takes out my two squadmates?  That doesn't make any sense.  He went from pinned and losing to decking my two squadmates in zero seconds flat.  That is not good story telling.

[Chchchchicken]

k.lalh wrote...

The thing with Leng is that he was obviously written to be a hated character. Almost everyone in the game hated him, and almost everyone on BSN hates him.

He does his job in this regard: to be hated, and to some extent be a foil for Shepard.

Sure maybe he wasn't a good foil, but he wasn't the main villain you've been trying to defeat all game like Saren was.

They had to tie Miranda back into the main plot somehow you know...

Besides, that renegade interrupt was more than satisfying.

Actually in this regard they failed with Kai Leng for me. I didn't want to kill him, I just wanted him to go away. Every scene with him wasn't "I look forward to teaching this smarmy jerk a lesson!" It was, "Please, just...just stop. Dear God, why isn't this cutscene skippable?!" *smash space bar in vain*.

The scene where Kai Leng jumps on your car in the citadel in particular drives me mad. C'mon Shepard, ram him into one of the beams you're flying right under for God's sake!  Do something!

As for Thessia, I agree with what others said about feeling like my Shepard should have been angry rather than completely depressed, or, at the very least a little more professional around the crew of her ship. Put on a brave face so to speak...even if the others still see through it. (I think you even get mopey dialogue with the engineers, correct me if I'm wrong). I solved this in subsequent playthroughs by only consulting with a few crew members, Shepard''s closest friends. It still grated though.

Modifié par Chchchchicken, 08 avril 2013 - 12:03 .

[Bleachrude]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, they certainly didn't try very hard in the few thousand years they had.

They just didn't have a prothean available, which was what was needed.

They still managed to nick info from the beacon without Prothean help for centuries- hence their advancement so they obviously didn't need one.

Again..what you're assuming is what a lot of people assume. Having access to some knowledge means they have access to ALL of the knowledge.

The game explicitly tells us the asari don't have access to that...

re: Asari as mary sues
That's a weird complaint...Even as far back as ME1, the asari were never portrayed as "perfect". I mean, that was the whole over the top point of the Dantius storyline/quest.

re: Fall of Thessia
I do have to admit that it does give a bad impression that the all0female race (yeah, yeah, not really all female) can't actually fight...I agree with others that BW overdid it with both the asari AND the salarians on them not being good fighters.

Then again, the game does try to tell us this but players somehow seem to want a binary state....

[KiwiQuiche]

Bleachrude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, they certainly didn't try very hard in the few thousand years they had.

They just didn't have a prothean available, which was what was needed.

They still managed to nick info from the beacon without Prothean help for centuries- hence their advancement so they obviously didn't need one.

Again..what you're assuming is what a lot of people assume. Having access to some knowledge means they have access to ALL of the knowledge.

The game explicitly tells us the asari don't have access to that...

re: Asari as mary sues
That's a weird complaint...Even as far back as ME1, the asari were never portrayed as "perfect". I mean, that was the whole over the top point of the Dantius storyline/quest.

re: Fall of Thessia
I do have to admit that it does give a bad impression that the all0female race (yeah, yeah, not really all female) can't actually fight...I agree with others that BW overdid it with both the asari AND the salarians on them not being good fighters.

Then again, the game does try to tell us this but players somehow seem to want a binary state....

Yeah, but they don't try very hard to access it. Instead they do sneaky, back-door tactics and hide it away. If it was fully and properly explored and studied, they could have found something. Instead they wanted to keep their grip on their power while banning everyone else from it and they ultimately paid the price for their stupidity.

[RustySam]

Only reason why Shepard was defeated on Thessia was because of a plot device called Kai Leng's Super Shields. Without that I would have decimated that clown with my eyes closed.

Although I do think that a small defeat spices things up if done correctly. Fall of Thessia was not one of those moments.

[MrFob]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, they certainly didn't try very hard in the few thousand years they had.

They just didn't have a prothean available, which was what was needed.

They still managed to nick info from the beacon without Prothean help for centuries- hence their advancement so they obviously didn't need one.

Again..what you're assuming is what a lot of people assume. Having access to some knowledge means they have access to ALL of the knowledge.

The game explicitly tells us the asari don't have access to that...

re: Asari as mary sues
That's a weird complaint...Even as far back as ME1, the asari were never portrayed as "perfect". I mean, that was the whole over the top point of the Dantius storyline/quest.

re: Fall of Thessia
I do have to admit that it does give a bad impression that the all0female race (yeah, yeah, not really all female) can't actually fight...I agree with others that BW overdid it with both the asari AND the salarians on them not being good fighters.

Then again, the game does try to tell us this but players somehow seem to want a binary state....

Yeah, but they don't try very hard to access it. Instead they do sneaky, back-door tactics and hide it away. If it was fully and properly explored and studied, they could have found something. Instead they wanted to keep their grip on their power while banning everyone else from it and they ultimately paid the price for their stupidity.

Ok, here is another question about this whole issue.
This beacon is basically the same as the one on Eden Prime and Virmire, right? According to Vigil the Protheans sent their message to all the beacons out there. Shepard (a human) and Saren (a Turian) could access the message. Liara could even access it by proxy through Shepard so it's reasonable the Asari are not exactly immune to Prothean messages, right? Why the hell did no one on Thessia get it? It seems to trigger any time anyone comes close.
Ok, these guys may not have understood everything because they didn't have cipher but even Shepard - without any other knowledge - gets that something is very wrong right away. It makes the whole reaper denial in ME1 and 2 even more ludicrous.

[Vargeisa]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Leng is supposed to be on-par with Shepard. He's supposed to be dangerous. That's not going to come across very well if he needs three gunships and a battalion of soldiers to make it an even fight.

. When I fought him Leng did not move from his spot.  I overloaded his shields repeatedly and he never budged from his spot and just kept recharging his shields.  Then all of a sudden he drops this and takes out my two squadmates?  That doesn't make any sense.  He went from pinned and losing to decking my two squadmates in zero seconds flat.  That is not good story telling.

Also, when KL says "Target the supports" what does Shepard do? S/he runs towards the supports...
Would have been a great time to run towards KL.

On the Citadel they do the opposite.
When KL is in the elevator instead of firing into the elevator Shepard runs towards him and his swordwielding friends..
I mean, wtf was Shepard thinking?

[MrFob]

TimtheEnchanter wrote...
Also, when KL says "Target the supports" what does Shepard do? S/he runs towards the supports...
Would have been a great time to run towards KL.

On the Citadel they do the opposite.
When KL is in the elevator instead of firing into the elevator Shepard runs towards him and his swordwielding friends..
I mean, wtf was Shepard thinking?

Haha, at least it's consistent. KL is standing on top of Shep's car which is coming up on one of these Presidium bridges. Does Shep pull up right under the bridge? No, s/he opens the car door and leans out to fire at him. I think Leng's little gadget jams brainwaves or something.

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2013 - 02:37 .

[Barquiel]

MrFob wrote...

Ok, here is another question about this whole issue.
This beacon is basically the same as the one on Eden Prime and Virmire, right? According to Vigil the Protheans sent their message to all the beacons out there. Shepard (a human) and Saren (a Turian) could access the message. Liara could even access it by proxy through Shepard so it's reasonable the Asari are not exactly immune to Prothean messages, right? Why the hell did no one on Thessia get it? It seems to trigger any time anyone comes close.
Ok, these guys may not have understood everything because they didn't have cipher but even Shepard - without any other knowledge - gets that something is very wrong right away. It makes the whole reaper denial in ME1 and 2 even more ludicrous.

The Beacon on Thessia was different. It didnt contain the standard warning that was sent from Ilos (Javik asks Shepard why their warnings about the Reapers weren't heeded, to which Shepard replies nobody could make sense of the beacon's message. Javik then complains that communication is still primitive in this cycle...). It was a beacon that belonged to a scientist and was locked for one reason or another. It was meant to activate only in the presence of a prothean.

The only explanation is that the asari have been deriving their technological advantage simply from studying the operation of the beacon, and not from its database (if they got anything out of it).

[MrFob]

The conversation between Javik and Shepard about the warnings takes place long before Thessia and clearly refers to the Eden Prime and Virmire beacons.

It was a beacon that belonged to a scientist and was locked for one reason or another. It was meant to activate only in the presence of a prothean.

Is that ever mentioned in the game? If so, I must have totally missed that. Ok, if that is in, than it makes sense. Then it also makes sense that the Asari never got any kind of great advantage from that beacon.

[Wulfram]

MrFob wrote...

Is that ever mentioned in the game? If so, I must have totally missed that. Ok, if that is in, than it makes sense. Then it also makes sense that the Asari never got any kind of great advantage from that beacon.

EDI says it, talking to Liara after the mission.

Possibly only happens if you don't have Javik?

[Exile Isan]

I assumed that the "beacon" on Thessia was like the archives on Mars, not the beacon on Eden Prime and Virmire. That the asari got information from it, like the humans did on Mars, but that the Prothean VI only activated in Shepard's presence because it thought she was a Prothean.

[Enhanced]

Sibu wrote...

Yestare7 wrote...

 
Homeplanet of the oldest and most powerfull race of the galaxy is defeated.
...aaaand, it makes Liara cry:(






Y

Oldest? Yes. Powerfull? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yes. Most powerful is correct. They are a race of females. Most races think they are attractive. They can reproduce with any other race. Of course they hold the power.

Modifié par Enhanced, 08 avril 2013 - 05:36 .

[pacer90]

1. The mood isn't supposed to be because Thessia was lost. It's because SHEPARD lost. He told all those soldiers along the way "sacrifice yourselves because I'm going to save your planet"

He mucked it up, they died for nothing.

2. Asari aren't mary sues. That term is blatantly abused around these forums because nobody knows what it means. They clearly have flaws, mainly their hubris. The fall of Thessia, after they had the most warnings and refused to help anyone, is a blatant example of that. I have explained on this forum a few times why superficial advantages like lifespan and beauty DOES NOT MAKE THEM FLAWLESS/MARY SUES.

3. Liara is my favourite character by far, and my shep's LI. But she was really annoying on Thessia, I wanted to slap her and say "YOUR PLANET IS ON FIRE?! Check the vids from Earth!!"

Thankfully the paragon interrupt in her room tells her to snap out of it and get back to f'ing work like everyone else on the ship.

[David7204]

Okay, a Mary-Sue is not a flawless character. And defining 'Mary-Sue' as such usually leads to people struggling to come with 'flaws' for their favorite characters, and then declaring that if the number of 'flaws' equals the number of good qualities, the character is well-written.

Shepard is a flawless character. (Apart from a tiny number of lines I don't like, but that's frankly unavoidable when tens of thousands of lines of dialogue are written.) S/he's in no way a Mary-Sue.

[Xilizhra]

2. Asari aren't mary sues. That term is blatantly abused around these forums because nobody knows what it means. They clearly have flaws, mainly their hubris. The fall of Thessia, after they had the most warnings and refused to help anyone, is a blatant example of that. I have explained on this forum a few times why superficial advantages like lifespan and beauty DOES NOT MAKE THEM FLAWLESS/MARY SUES.

They did start helping people, it just wasn't connected to a huge plot event like Tuchanka or Rannoch. Hence, people keep missing it. But even at the beginning, we know of asari who were helping to evacuate the human colony of Tiptree, for instance.

[Steelcan]

Wulfram wrote...

MrFob wrote...

Is that ever mentioned in the game? If so, I must have totally missed that. Ok, if that is in, than it makes sense. Then it also makes sense that the Asari never got any kind of great advantage from that beacon.

EDI says it, talking to Liara after the mission.

Possibly only happens if you don't have Javik?

. "I stil could have learned from it". Straight from her mouth.

[robertthebard]

Steelcan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

MrFob wrote...

Is that ever mentioned in the game? If so, I must have totally missed that. Ok, if that is in, than it makes sense. Then it also makes sense that the Asari never got any kind of great advantage from that beacon.

EDI says it, talking to Liara after the mission.

Possibly only happens if you don't have Javik?

. "I stil could have learned from it". Straight from her mouth.

This dialog will fire if you have Javik too.

[pacer90]

David7204 wrote...

Okay, a Mary-Sue is not a flawless character. And defining 'Mary-Sue' as such usually leads to people struggling to come with 'flaws' for their favorite characters, and then declaring that if the number of 'flaws' equals the number of good qualities, the character is well-written.

Shepard is a flawless character. (Apart from a tiny number of lines I don't like, but that's frankly unavoidable when tens of thousands of lines of dialogue are written.) S/he's in no way a Mary-Sue.

Although it DID come off as such, I was not attempting to use the terms flawless and mary sue interchangeably . I should have addressed each in turn.

- A Mary Sue is a term almost entirely based in fan fiction. It is a character used for wish-fufillment through a disguised self insertion by the author. Simply put, the asari are not "Mary Sue's". They don't meet any of the major requirements

- "Flawless" characters/races are argued improperly on this forum as well. Lets take Shepard for an example. Shepard doesn't need to have glaring deficiencies or weaknesses to avoid being "flawless". He has to assemble a team in order to complete his objectives, by this very nature he is already a dynamic and flawed character. He needs EDI to hack, Liara for information, Joker to fly the Normandy etc etc. It's not that he is delegating these tasks, he is simply worse at these things than his teammates. 

In the same manner, Asari simply cannot be flawless because they are worse at certain tasks than other races. The krogan are stronger. The turians are better in military matters. The humans are better at capturing opportunities when they are presented.

[Ecrulis]

SinerAthin wrote...

mtmercydave09 wrote...

I think it's more doom and gloom with regards to Thessia, because Shep and company were so close to getting the data.

That and it's the first time Shep is really "defeated", although he really wasn't since it took a gunship to do it.

I found that scene a bit lol.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard even shot down multiple Gunships >WITH A PISTOL<


The power scaling in Mass Effect is lol worthy xD

I killed a Human Reaper with a Heavy Pistol....the gunship scene was the dubmest thing I have EVER seen.

Modifié par Ecrulis, 08 avril 2013 - 06:30 .

[pacer90]

Xilizhra wrote...

2. Asari aren't mary sues. That term is blatantly abused around these forums because nobody knows what it means. They clearly have flaws, mainly their hubris. The fall of Thessia, after they had the most warnings and refused to help anyone, is a blatant example of that. I have explained on this forum a few times why superficial advantages like lifespan and beauty DOES NOT MAKE THEM FLAWLESS/MARY SUES.

They did start helping people, it just wasn't connected to a huge plot event like Tuchanka or Rannoch. Hence, people keep missing it. But even at the beginning, we know of asari who were helping to evacuate the human colony of Tiptree, for instance.

Whatever helps you sleep man.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And every government has its secrets. The Asari perhaps had gleened all they could from this particular beacon, but that section that you guys are talking about was locked out by that scientist and was only accessible to another prothean. So that's possibly why the Asari never mentioned it. It wouldn't have been useful. But then do we know of a plausible reason why the governments didn't really prepare for the coming of the reapers? Perhaps the plans for the Crucible were in the Citadel Archives? lol and they just let Earth discover it on Mars. Perhaps the Prothean scientists from Ilos put the location of all the beacons in the Citadel Archives, then let each race think they were smart. lol. The council must have been chuckling "Ah yes 'reapers.'"

One thing that Shepard fails to mention to Joker was that the Asari were giving the Reapers hell in Space battles with their hit and run tactics. The Reapers weren't dealing with them well and were taking unacceptable losses. We don't hear about this in the game. You don't form a galactic empire by being a bunch of limp wristed ninnies. It was at that point the Reapers changed their tactics of engaging the Asari fleet and decided to ignore it and land.

@pacer90 -- people no matter who they are and how smart they are can only truly relate to what they have seen. Liara never saw Earth in flames. Vids are not the same as seeing it. She saw Palaven. She saw Thessia. She asked about Earth. I'm sure she's seen vids. Seeing the devastation on television in New Orleans from Katrina did not affect someone in Berkeley CA the same way as it did someone in New Orleans. Just like the fire in the Berkeley Hills did not affect someone in New Orleans the same way it did someone in Berkeley. You had to see it in person to believe it, because both were that devastating.

[Astartes Marine]

David7204 wrote...
Shepard is a flawless character.

You made me spit my drink out a little sir, I could not help but laugh at that idea.

Shepard is PLENTY flawed.

[pprrff]

Astartes Marine wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Shepard is a flawless character.

You made me spit my drink out a little sir, I could not help but laugh at that idea.

Shepard is PLENTY flawed.

The best example of Shep Flaw: Thessia.

Killed god knows how many harvesters to get to the temple, only to get defeated by a cerbrus gunship.