222 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultrabobo]

we're all biased, and i'm not saying is a bad thing. We like certain characters more, others less, and we act accordingly.
I don't like Liara so much, so her reaction bothers more than it does to others.
And i might not be as objective as i think when i say that the first reaction to husks from Ash/Kaidan is more understandable because is the first contact, and because they don't **** about as much when on the Normany.
As i was saying, biased.

Astartes Marine wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is that an unsympathetic stance? Damn right it is, but it's a war. Blood will be spilled, lives will be lost, but you can't ever stop until either you or the enemy is dead.

Well, them joining the Greater Good works too.

And then you get neutered and put into a camp.  What they don't tell you is it's the "greater good"...for the Tau and only the Tau.  The rest are just convenient support and cheap labor.  The days of the Tau being idealistic "good guys" in Warhammer is long past with newer codexes and background fluff making them just as morally and ethically questionable/bankrupt as everyone else.

OT, but that is why i burn heretics, witches and xeno
No pity! No remorse! No fear!
For the Emperor and for Dorn!

[Astartes Marine]

Steelcan wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Except we never actually see her exhibit cowardice in the face of the enemy.  She, like any other squad mate, will fight what you tell her to fight, when you tell her to fight it.  Mostly, squad AI not withstanding.  If showing revulsion at the sight of a husk is bad, then Ash/Kaidan fail out of the gate in ME 3.  They don't even get off Mars before failing.  Now, if she broke down completely, on the battlefield, then you may have a point.  But since she doesn't, headcanon of how she's going to act, or of her or any squad mate exhibiting cowardice is just that, headcanon, and really has no place in a discussion of actual events in game.

. That's not head canon though.  That's Liara's own admission of cowardice on the battlefield.

No actually it's not.  Kurin's comments could be taken that way as she was going to take her troops and abandon the post they were ordered to hold.  Liara whines, but still does attack the enemy and escort you to the temple.  So...while I didn't like her attitude...at the least she did not run.

Though in my latest playthrough on Insanity she spent most of the time on the ground dead as she didn't seem to understand the importance of cover, especially against Ravagers.

[Steelcan]

Astartes Marine wrote...


No actually it's not.  Kurin's comments could be taken that way as she was going to take her troops and abandon the post they were ordered to hold.  Liara whines, but still does attack the enemy and escort you to the temple.  So...while I didn't like her attitude...at the least she did not run.

. Coward =\\= running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

[Astartes Marine]

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

But she doesn't refuse to fight the enemy...she cries about the Reaper threat like it only mattered when it hit the Asari...but she still fights.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

[Steelcan]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

. Not her fault, she probably has more experience stripping anyways 

[Artifex_Imperius]

mrufka_z wrote...

I admit, I never read "Homeworlds". But in ME2 she clearly said (re finding Shepard), that she acted on Cerberus data and promise that they could actually save Shepard. And later she was trying to avenge Feron. As far as I know, only TIM made the connection between Collectors and Reapers. Did he share this knowledge with her? Or did she somehow find it herself? Please, give actual quote and I'll take back my statement.

As for her being untrained civillian - funny, how this is always mentioned only with regard to Thessia. Everywhere else she's badass Shadow Broker, with means to shake the Galaxy. So which it is? Because sorry, but you can't have it both ways.  
Heck, Taynor may be military, but she worked in a lab all her career. Did she fall apart after Earth?

Re javik being uselsess - what exactly he should do? Pat her on the head, like everyone else? Not Prothean style. 
And what would you do, after "sleeping" for 50 000 years?...

-she made that connection between reaper,shepard,collector&shadow broker on page 21 issue 3 of mass effect: redemption. again showing her impressive deductive skills.

-and her showing that intense emotion is only normal. it was her home she saw burn upclose. again people lacking empathy believing what ever shepard saw on earth liara also has seen. liara crying/shouting is a sign shes only human/alien or whatever. her sudden outburst is understandble and again normal its part of the process called dabda. and for crew to seem to have uterly no reaction is strange but well maybe because their soldiers with psychological training.

-well atleast javik understood liara in the end and soo did everyone else, javik lost his home too.may be javik realized that he had lttle contribution to the war anyway. its again normal to vent that anger.
another sign of liara's strong character she overcame that fear and anger. she did more to help her people making arrangements for evacuations and aid. no can deny her as part of the crew her contribution to the war finding shepard, finding and building the crucible & being the shadowbroker.

and comparing her to traynor again.maybe she had psychological training being an officer and all. coz again its normal to fall apart and then recover yourself. what liara did. gave more emotion to the character.

-for the writters of ME liara is shown as that person fighting enemies with witt,courage and determination. she has no military training but still she fights to survive against all odds. from  archeologist to soldier liaras transformation is awesome. she's like lara croft minus the sas thing.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 10 avril 2013 - 11:13 .

[Exile Isan]

I can forgive all the other comments she makes (for the most part) it is her home and her people that are getting slaughtered after all, but I cannot forgive the Alliance should spring for air support comment. It was uncalled for and unfair.

[Artifex_Imperius]

Exile Isan wrote...

I can forgive all the other comments she makes (for the most part) it is her home and her people that are getting slaughtered after all, but I cannot forgive the Alliance should spring for air support comment. It was uncalled for and unfair.

strange asari died fighting reapers to help evacuate human colonies. ie tiptree. was there ever a mention of humans saving an asari colony? says alot though.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 10 avril 2013 - 11:23 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

But she doesn't refuse to fight the enemy...she cries about the Reaper threat like it only mattered when it hit the Asari...but she still fights.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

But she doesn't refuse to fight the enemy...she cries about the Reaper
threat like it only mattered when it hit the Asari...but she still
fights. you'd be pretty stone cold not to cry if your home got burned down. yet she did express her sorrow for the loss of earth.

ahh but kurin didnt retreat mr. marine she died fighting. question is not whether she was going to abandon the post but did she abandon the post? the answer is NO. goes to show strippers are better in HOLDING the line eh!

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 10 avril 2013 - 11:30 .

[Steelcan]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

Exile Isan wrote...

I can forgive all the other comments she makes (for the most part) it is her home and her people that are getting slaughtered after all, but I cannot forgive the Alliance should spring for air support comment. It was uncalled for and unfair.

strange asari died fighting reapers to help evacuate human colonies. ie tiptree. was there ever a mention of humans saving an asari colony? says alot though.

.  Maybe because humanity got curb stomped by the Reapers.......  The Alliance had been firing desperately since the Reaper exploded onto the galactic scene.  The Asari were content to sit out the Summit,

[Exile Isan]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
strange asari died fighting reapers to help evacuate human colonies. ie tiptree.

Yep, and the Alliance Fleet is building the Crucible, trying to defend Earth and Shepard, who is an Alliance soldier on an Alliance warship, is doing everything s/he can to stop the Reapers. Everybody is doing what they can so Liara's comment is out of line.

And you do know that that asari and what Joker tells us doesn't fit together right? That PSTD asari is in Huetra memorial when you first show up at the Citadel post Mars. Yet Joker tells us that Tiptree only got attacked by Reapers two weeks before the events of Thessia. Unless you're going to tell me that Shepard fled Earth, hit Mars, Menae, Eden Prime, Sur'kesh, Tuchanka, foiled Cerberus Coup attempt, and destroyed the Reaper on Rannoch all in two weeks time?

[Artifex_Imperius]

Steelcan wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

Exile Isan wrote...

I can forgive all the other comments she makes (for the most part) it is her home and her people that are getting slaughtered after all, but I cannot forgive the Alliance should spring for air support comment. It was uncalled for and unfair.

strange asari died fighting reapers to help evacuate human colonies. ie tiptree. was there ever a mention of humans saving an asari colony? says alot though.

.  Maybe because humanity got curb stomped by the Reapers.......  The Alliance had been firing desperately since the Reaper exploded onto the galactic scene.  The Asari were content to sit out the Summit,

that alone you cannot deny the participation of the asari in the conflict. ie rescuing human colonies. nuff said.

[Artifex_Imperius]

Exile Isan wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
strange asari died fighting reapers to help evacuate human colonies. ie tiptree.

Yep, and the Alliance Fleet is building the Crucible, trying to defend Earth and Shepard, who is an Alliance soldier on an Alliance warship, is doing everything s/he can to stop the Reapers. Everybody is doing what they can so Liara's comment is out of line.

And you do know that that asari and what Joker tells us doesn't fit together right? That PSTD asari is in Huetra memorial when you first show up at the Citadel post Mars. Yet Joker tells us that Tiptree only got attacked by Reapers two weeks before the events of Thessia. Unless you're going to tell me that Shepard fled Earth, hit Mars, Menae, Eden Prime, Sur'kesh, Tuchanka, foiled Cerberus Coup attempt, and destroyed the Reaper on Rannoch all in two weeks time?

asking for help in time of need is not out of the line. asari rescued jokers colony. asari more strippers? nice one they got thesame number of soldiers and more ships than the alliance. asari are just stretched to thin soo many colonies.

2 weeks maybe even less! who knows! point is asari are helping humans. and humans well i dont know as you say building crucible helped by an asari broker.

after SINGLE HANDEDLY fiding the damn crucible  i think liara can demand alot from the alliance. dont ya think!

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 10 avril 2013 - 11:58 .

[Steelcan]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...


that alone you cannot deny the participation of the asari in the conflict. ie rescuing human colonies. nuff said.

. And humans help out Asari colonies.  There are N7 led teams on a huge Asari colony, see N7 Fuel Reactor.

[Artifex_Imperius]

Steelcan wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...


that alone you cannot deny the participation of the asari in the conflict. ie rescuing human colonies. nuff said.

. And humans help out Asari colonies.  There are N7 led teams on a huge Asari colony, see N7 Fuel Reactor.

well i guess we can agree then everyone is participating somehow someway! N7 fuel reactor? sounds like a supply depot for all to me?

[Steelcan]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...


that alone you cannot deny the participation of the asari in the conflict. ie rescuing human colonies. nuff said.

. And humans help out Asari colonies.  There are N7 led teams on a huge Asari colony, see N7 Fuel Reactor.

well i guess we can agree then everyone is participating somehow someway! N7 fuel reactor? sounds like a supply depot for all to me?

. It is on an Asari planet inhabited by millions.

[Astartes Marine]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
you'd be pretty stone cold not to cry if your home got burned down. yet she did express her sorrow for the loss of earth.

Sure you can feel bad, feel sorrow.  I'd prefer to shape it, turn it into anger for the enemy and use that anger and aggression to drive me and give me focus.  Yes it's saddening to see civilians suffer, but remember that there is a foe actively hurting them and you have the power and the means to fight that foe. 

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
ahh
but kurin didnt retreat mr. marine she died fighting. question is not
whether she was going to abandon the post but did she abandon the post?
the answer is NO.

Did you forget that she changes her mind after Shepard verbally beats her back into some sense with either a paragon or renegade response?  

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
goes to show strippers are better in HOLDING the line
eh!

Better than what? 

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 10 avril 2013 - 11:52 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

Astartes Marine wrote...
Did you forget that she changes her mind after Shepard verbally beats her back into some sense with either a paragon or renegade response?

ahh again lacking EMPATHY! she didnt know what she was doing their as i RECALL? she didnt know what she was dying for. after knowing it was for the crucible she fought hard and bravely.

Get the point? or are we saying everybody knows about the crucible? or everybody can see through shepard's eyes. empathy man! place yourself in their shoes! marine!

anyway what astartes do you play Ultra? Blood Ravens? Space Wolves?

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 10 avril 2013 - 11:55 .

[robertthebard]

Exile Isan wrote...

I can forgive all the other comments she makes (for the most part) it is her home and her people that are getting slaughtered after all, but I cannot forgive the Alliance should spring for air support comment. It was uncalled for and unfair.

I actually laugh every time I hear that.  Which I believe was the intended response.  All things considered, they could have really used some, but since the Alliance is too far away for that, and she knows it, I think she's trying to make light of a bad situation.

[robertthebard]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
you'd be pretty stone cold not to cry if your home got burned down. yet she did express her sorrow for the loss of earth.

Sure you can feel bad, feel sorrow.  I'd prefer to shape it, turn it into anger for the enemy and use that anger and aggression to drive me and give me focus.  Yes it's saddening to see civilians suffer, but remember that there is a foe actively hurting them and you have the power and the means to fight that foe. 

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
ahh
but kurin didnt retreat mr. marine she died fighting. question is not
whether she was going to abandon the post but did she abandon the post?
the answer is NO.

Did you forget that she changes her mind after Shepard verbally beats her back into some sense with either a paragon or renegade response?  

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
goes to show strippers are better in HOLDING the line
eh!

Better than what? 

Actually, that works a lot better with Javik.  He doesn't paragon or renegade her, but reads her, and talks to her about what he reads.  Renegade Shep gets a line to the effect of "He knows what he's talking about", and Kurin orders her troops to carve a path to the temple.  Pretty sure the dialog is the same after the Paragon or Renegade dialog though.

[Astartes Marine]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
ahh again lacking EMPATHY! she didnt
know what she was doing their as i RECALL? she didnt know what she was
dying for. after knowing it was for the crucible she fought hard and
bravely.

At that point in the game I assumed that people especially soldiers understood or were briefed on the threat the Reapers posed, galactic extinction.  If anything there's a very clear reason to keep on fighting.

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
or are we saying everybody knows about the crucible? or everybody can see through shepard's eyes. empathy man! place yourself in their shoes! marine!

anyway what astartes do you play Ultra? Blood Ravens? Space Wolves?

I get the feeling just about everybody and their mother knows about it, Shepard talks about it casually whenever he mentions it.  It just doesn't seem hush-hush for something that is supposed to be ultra hush-hush.

And I play Blood Ravens/pre-MW Ultramarines as well as a major love for Imperial Guard.  Don't care for the Pups or the BA.  The foes I enjoy fighting the most are the Necrons/Orks.

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, that works a lot better with
Javik.  He doesn't paragon or renegade her, but reads her, and talks to
her about what he reads.  Renegade Shep gets a line to the effect of "He
knows what he's talking about", and Kurin orders her troops to carve a
path to the temple.  Pretty sure the dialog is the same after the
Paragon or Renegade dialog though.

Yeah I have to say, as often as I find Javik kind of irritating...he's really made for that mission.  His perspective sheds new light on alot of things.

[Artifex_Imperius]

Astartes Marine wrote...


At that point in the game I assumed that people especially soldiers understood or were briefed on the threat the Reapers posed, galactic extinction.  If anything there's a very clear reason to keep on fighting.


I get the feeling just about everybody and their mother knows about it, Shepard talks about it casually whenever he mentions it.  It just doesn't seem hush-hush for something that is supposed to be ultra hush-hush.

Yes you assumed she knew about the temple. and yes she did not know about he cruicible either!
or what her mission was their at that time.

And for asari holding the line with a static defensive posture against a larger and stronger enemy force is unthinkable. think assymetrical warfare her best option was to retreat to a better position or to be mobile enough to dictate the tempo.
and you call that cowardice? damn man!

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 11 avril 2013 - 12:37 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

She was in need of a BLAMMING.

A pity there were no Commissars around.

[Xilizhra]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

She was in need of a BLAMMING.

A pity there were no Commissars around.

I don't know about Yarrick, but the other two most effective Commissars I know of, Gaunt and Cain, avoid that kind of thing when possible.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Coward == running away.  She can still be a coward by refusing to fight the enemy, which is exactly what she admits to.

Again, Kurin is closer to the cowardice accusation as she willingly admits planning to abandon her asigned post and defy orders.

She was in need of a BLAMMING.

A pity there were no Commissars around.

I don't know about Yarrick, but the other two most effective Commissars I know of, Gaunt and Cain, avoid that kind of thing when possible.

Meh if you're going to Grimdark you might as well go the full measure.

Warrior: Sir the Reapers have broken through!
Commander: DROWN THEM IN BODIES!!!

*six years later*

Warrior: I can't believe that worked.
Commander: I can't believe we still have surplus bodies.