131 réponses à ce sujet

[OniGanon]

Aren't you really new to the game though?

Don't worry about it too much. As long as you're not scoring <40K on Gold or <20k on Silver, you're probably fine.

[OniGanon]

So just for the lulz, I tried two PUG Gold games with the Volus Merc 4/5/6/5/6, using a Falcon and Cryo Ammo. A full support class (one I'm not very familiar with btw) with support loadout, practically nonexistent DPS.

First game, dropped into the end of Wave 3 (just in time for the credits! Yes!) on FBW, Collectors. In progress game, I spend the first few waves dying a lot because I forgot how squishy Volus are and it takes me 3 waves to remember they can cloak. Boss heavy, melee heavy faction who largely ignore my Drone and Decoy, and are thoroughly unimpressed by my Falcon.

I'll be honest, aside from keeping Abominations at bay, distracting a couple of Captains and doing a bit of Shield Boosting, I felt my contribution to the match was pretty darn low and was expecting leech accusation and kicks.

Still scored 54K points, last place by a long way.

Second game (same host, apparently didn't think me kickworthy) was Geth, Condor. Much better play and contribution. Actually remembered to cloak and keep shield boost up most of the time.

Still didn't really kill anything worth a damn, mind you, but Drone and Decoy proved wonderful in staggering and distracting the enemies (watching the Decoy attract Prime salvoes, Geth Drone Incinerates and Bomber runs was especially satisfying), and the Falcon ensured Hunters and Pyros rarely had a chance to get near, let alone do anything useful when they did.

Scored 80K points and 3rd place.

This isn't an attempt to brag about points and show how awesome I am.

This is to show that, even playing a full support class with a support weapon, no DPS at all, against perhaps the worst faction possible for such a thing, not even being there for the full 11 waves, and generally playing poorly on the border of leeching... you still get 50K points.

<40K points for full 11 waves U/U/G isn't just bad, it's practically AFK.

[Disciple888]

@op, yes it does

[HusarX]

I can only say this. I had a Reapers/Plat game . We all had a score >100k. It was a fast & funny game.
I also had a Reapers/Plat game where me and my friend scored > 170k , pug 3 = 40k , pug 4 = 15 k (!). It was a challenge.

[FlowCytometry]

afaik, decoy can't be 'thrown' like the drone can if ya got an enemy locked

honestly, I can't find a great use for decoy against non-Geth. I have seen it work as a distraction to units that typically camp if you throw it one one part of the map and move far away (and if noone else is nearby), but that doesn't strike me as a very efficient or plausible strategy and wastes time just trying to get the aggro distraction to work. At that point you have to ask if the opportunity cost of even using ur power cd on it is worth it or not., as even the area shock evo is underwhelming for damage.

Just stuck w/ a decoy-less VolMerc. I normally hate skipping powers, but at least drone can be thrown and can be decent control and semi decent dps if ya can get splash dmg to kill an exploding drone.

[Disciple888]

decoy - aggros all trooper units/geth, shock evolution stuns for rushdown and staggers husks/aboms. And, distracts phantoms.

[Tech Domain]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Tech Domain wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

Tech Domain wrote...

I don't think standing there being a bullet sponge counts as skill, OP. No matter how helpful it was for the team.

A well played Juggernaut holds off all the bosses, and keeps 10 mobs surrounding him so we can mow them down with AOE explosions. All he is going to do is keep holding heavy melee. He may not score much but the match went fast and easy.

What point are you trying to make?

Yeah, they might have been useful to the team, which is exactly what I said, but where is the skill in keeping hold of heavy melee?
That's not what a good Jugg does. A good Jugg actually kills things too, while holding off bosses. Meleeing situationally, not constantly.
To bring back shields and stop phantoms

Also, shoot all the things.

That is situationally.

[78stonewobble]

Tech Domain wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

Tech Domain wrote...

I don't think standing there being a bullet sponge counts as skill, OP. No matter how helpful it was for the team.

A well played Juggernaut holds off all the bosses, and keeps 10 mobs surrounding him so we can mow them down with AOE explosions. All he is going to do is keep holding heavy melee. He may not score much but the match went fast and easy.

What point are you trying to make?

Yeah, they might have been useful to the team, which is exactly what I said, but where is the skill in keeping hold of heavy melee?
That's not what a good Jugg does. A good Jugg actually kills things too, while holding off bosses. Meleeing situationally, not constantly.

Jeez alot of clueless people here talking about the juggernaut...

A jugernaut WILL go do down on platinum, gold or even silver if he has both pretorians meleeing him, both scions and 6 mooks shooting at him (the maximum amount of enemies is 8 right?).

Partially due to lower levels of gear and consumables on the lower difficulties. I don't know why everyone assumes that everyone uses lvl 3 and 4.

UNLESS he is skilled enough to to perfectly time the heavy melee, make clever use of soft cover, hex shield  healing turret as needed and maneuver around to avoid stagger lock.  

That takes skill ...

[LuckyBullet95]

OK I've read alot of posts in this thread claiming to believe in this lie called "support". The problem with support is that the game isn't balanced around it, you will ALWAYS be much more helpful by shooting things in the face. A Volus can easily break 100,000 in an unknown/unknown/platinum game, so can a Juggernaut. Yes do nideed shield boost your teammates if say, there's an escort, they're on the device or there's a few seconds left on extraction and yes do Heavy Melee and draw aggro as the Juggernaut if there's a large spawns about to overrun the hack circle but for christ sake you never had to play support before so don't pretend you need to play it now. The Juggernaut ISN'T a melee character, there's a reason he has the absolute best passives in the game and it wasn't so he can stand there heavy meleeing everything...

[CDR David Shepard]

I'm a firm believer that your score is directly related to your contribution in completing the current mission.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 07 avril 2013 - 09:48 .

[78stonewobble]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

OK I've read alot of posts in this thread claiming to believe in this lie called "support". The problem with support is that the game isn't balanced around it, you will ALWAYS be much more helpful by shooting things in the face. A Volus can easily break 100,000 in an unknown/unknown/platinum game, so can a Juggernaut. Yes do nideed shield boost your teammates if say, there's an escort, they're on the device or there's a few seconds left on extraction and yes do Heavy Melee and draw aggro as the Juggernaut if there's a large spawns about to overrun the hack circle but for christ sake you never had to play support before so don't pretend you need to play it now. The Juggernaut ISN'T a melee character, there's a reason he has the absolute best passives in the game and it wasn't so he can stand there heavy meleeing everything...

The point being that if you're spending >50 percent of the time shooting as the juggernaut then you might as well have picked a class the does "shooting" better. If, on the other hand, you need to melee constantly to keep your shields up then you're tanking properly.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Situationally, no matter what class you play, just contribute. Low score does not always mean you were useless though - what if the guy with a low score got 15+ revives? That alone made bringing him worth it if you didn't have to keep picking him up.

Yes, someone who can deal lots of damage is often preferable, but I am sick of everyone on here spouting that everything has to be maximum DPS, debuffing, slowing, stunning, healing, and combo explosions are all good and helpful. For example I have played with a FQE who spammed cryo blast and tech drone - virtually no damage but all mooks were stopped in their tracks, bosses weakened and slowed kept us safe and allowed us to cause even more damage, easier headshots too. Their help was much appreciated, their job was not to do maximum DPS, but to help others to. They didn't go down, helped with the objectives and assisted with their own gun - more than good enough for me.

I for one am not speed-running, I don't care if the match takes a little longer. Honestly some of you sound almost like you would be expect nothing less than a team of four TGI's armed with super duper cannons that fire krogan headbutts and thresher maws. Matches don't have to be finished in under 15 mins you know - its about fun for me rather than credits. There is nothing a team of three good players cannot do on gold, even if the fourth is playing support or doing nothing - if the match takes ages or you have problems then its not just that fourth guy that has a problem. I would rather carry a bad support volus or juggy than a badly played damage dealing class as I don't have to babysit them as much and they at least don't die as much and might save me a medigel if they at least revive me.

Don't get me wrong, I love teaming up and slaughtering the enemy and finishing super-quick because we played well, but my experience of PUGs is that 65% of the time that does not happen. There is always at least one player who is new, or has a bad load-out and doesn't play well, sometimes often two of them.Someone not scoring very much is often the LEAST of my problems. I LIKE doing all the killing, as long as I don't have to keep saving everyone else.

[CDR David Shepard]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

Situationally, no matter what class you play, just contribute. Low score does not always mean you were useless though - what if the guy with a low score got 15+ revives? That alone made bringing him worth it if you didn't have to keep picking him up.

Yes, someone who can deal lots of damage is often preferable, but I am sick of everyone on here spouting that everything has to be maximum DPS, debuffing, slowing, stunning, healing, and combo explosions are all good and helpful. For example I have played with a FQE who spammed cryo blast and tech drone - virtually no damage but all mooks were stopped in their tracks, bosses weakened and slowed kept us safe and allowed us to cause even more damage, easier headshots too. Their help was much appreciated, their job was not to do maximum DPS, but to help others to. They didn't go down, helped with the objectives and assisted with their own gun - more than good enough for me.

I for one am not speed-running, I don't care if the match takes a little longer. Honestly some of you sound almost like you would be expect nothing less than a team of four TGI's armed with super duper cannons that fire krogan headbutts and thresher maws. Matches don't have to be finished in under 15 mins you know - its about fun for me rather than credits. There is nothing a team of three good players cannot do on gold, even if the fourth is playing support or doing nothing - if the match takes ages or you have problems then its not just that fourth guy that has a problem. I would rather carry a bad support volus or juggy than a badly played damage dealing class as I don't have to babysit them as much and they at least don't die as much and might save me a medigel if they at least revive me.

Don't get me wrong, I love teaming up and slaughtering the enemy and finishing super-quick because we played well, but my experience of PUGs is that 65% of the time that does not happen. There is always at least one player who is new, or has a bad load-out and doesn't play well, sometimes often two of them.Someone not scoring very much is often the LEAST of my problems. I LIKE doing all the killing, as long as I don't have to keep saving everyone else.

Definitely.

Even if you have the best players in one game...someone will always be last in the score.

Definitely does not mean you were useless.

[PreGy]

Scores DOES matter. Saying otherwise is not knowing what scores shows.

This doesn't mean that you have to score first or anything, but someone who scores less than 40-50K in a Gold/Platinum game is likely due to either not killing enough, not going where he has to, or even being a Jugg/volus support (and then it may be useful for the team and doing it somehow right, but even them can deal some damage, except if there are 3 other "burst-damage" dealers in the game).

When there are 4 above-average/pros in the team, the score shows that (it usually goes something between every player in the 70-130K points); when there are 2 good players and two average PUGS, the score keeps showing that (two players with 140K, the other with less than 50K).

There are some circumstances where score may not reflect EXACTLY how the game was handled (normally, extraction missile-spawning, people joining in latter waves, two people playing DI/GI efficently [leaving few points to other players that aren't so confident to get into spawns with their kits and just cover their flanks]), but it DOES matter.

[FlowCytometry]

I'll be honest, I care more about a teammate either dying often in terrible spots and not gelling to endanger the rest of the team trying to revive them and/or not using consumables to get themselves out.. than I do about a person that's not racking up the kills. I can handle people just being aggro magnets since all ya need is one decent player w/ a good dps kit usually, but not if it takes constant maintenance to keep people up.

Although, usually the players that really hamper the team like that and very low scorers go hand-in-hand (can't score when ur dead or running and hiding most the match, etc).

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 07 avril 2013 - 10:23 .

[LuckyBullet95]

78stonewobble wrote...

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

OK I've read alot of posts in this thread claiming to believe in this lie called "support". The problem with support is that the game isn't balanced around it, you will ALWAYS be much more helpful by shooting things in the face. A Volus can easily break 100,000 in an unknown/unknown/platinum game, so can a Juggernaut. Yes do nideed shield boost your teammates if say, there's an escort, they're on the device or there's a few seconds left on extraction and yes do Heavy Melee and draw aggro as the Juggernaut if there's a large spawns about to overrun the hack circle but for christ sake you never had to play support before so don't pretend you need to play it now. The Juggernaut ISN'T a melee character, there's a reason he has the absolute best passives in the game and it wasn't so he can stand there heavy meleeing everything...

The point being that if you're spending >50 percent of the time shooting as the juggernaut then you might as well have picked a class the does "shooting" better. If, on the other hand, you need to melee constantly to keep your shields up then you're tanking properly.

Nope you can tank without the melee. Like I said 12,000 effective health and shields,  not too hard to go down with THAT much HP... You don't need to HM to not go down and you can still tank properly. The Juggernaut has portable right-hand advantage unlike every other class in the game, he can easily take the fight to a spawn out in the open if there's no cover , something you can't do with the Turian Soldier. Plus, like I said the Juggernaut, the reason PUGs thing they are being helpful is because they don't die as the Juggernaut, yes he's a good decoy, you can use that situationally for killstreaks at the end of a hack or to prevent a Device, Hack or LZ being overrun. DOENS'T MEAN YOU NEED TO HEAVY MELEE EVERYTHING. You will do more damage and sacrifice zero tankiness by shooting them. And they will still usually aggro on you.

The only thing you do by "tanking properly" is waste time, have no fun and most of all prove that the Juggernaut is OP because ANYONE can do that. It's not tanking properly, it's playing a class inneffeciently and making up a bull**** excuse like "you might as well melee everything instead of shooting things because other classes can do it better" just makes me laugh, by that logic the only classes we should see in the game are the Geth Juggernaut (for tanking), Geth Infiltrators (damage output), Drell Adepts (Bio'splosion God), N7 Paladins (Cryo'splosion God), N7 Furies (Bio'splosion Goddess) and the Male Quarian Engineer (Tech Burst and Fire'splosion God) because "if your gonna be tech bursting/cryo'sploding/bio'sploding/fire'sploding/shooting/tanking then you may as well play as pick a class that can tech burst/cryo'splode/fire'splode/shoot/tank better" and nothind does it better than those 6 classes...

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

^Some people don't spec for shield, many complain team mates shoot it out instead of moving. Shield also does not stop all projectiles, and its highly directional - if a juggernaut gets flanked a shield does squat. A juggernaut standing meleeing enemies is actually often a sign of him having bad team mates - if he is forced to it means you were not killing stuff fast enough yourself, he wont have to stand there meleeing if you actually kill some of them will he? The times when I personally have to melee are mostly when I have to save team mates lives because they died somewhere daft, or I had to solo because they all died because again, they were rubbish. If the team sticks together and focuses fire a jug can focus on dishing out the damage, if you dont support him by killing stuff or watching his back then you have a jug standing there meleeing.

Just you try tanking and staying alive on gold or platinum with shields and hex shield alone and without using all your ops packs - you cannot do that with crap team mates. as a slow moving character who cant take cover I rely mainly on using corners and other map furniture for protection while I focus on mowing them down, but if enemies are on both sides of that because team mates don't understand spawn control its not like he can run away! Some maps its fine, but others have little cover, especially around objectives. I know there are some juggys who do it intentionally, but I am sure there are many who are forced to stand there and are getting hate for doing so by people who are playing incompetently themselves. If people actually used mics and manners then all this could be resolved tbh.

[78stonewobble]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

OK I've read alot of posts in this thread claiming to believe in this lie called "support". The problem with support is that the game isn't balanced around it, you will ALWAYS be much more helpful by shooting things in the face. A Volus can easily break 100,000 in an unknown/unknown/platinum game, so can a Juggernaut. Yes do nideed shield boost your teammates if say, there's an escort, they're on the device or there's a few seconds left on extraction and yes do Heavy Melee and draw aggro as the Juggernaut if there's a large spawns about to overrun the hack circle but for christ sake you never had to play support before so don't pretend you need to play it now. The Juggernaut ISN'T a melee character, there's a reason he has the absolute best passives in the game and it wasn't so he can stand there heavy meleeing everything...

The point being that if you're spending >50 percent of the time shooting as the juggernaut then you might as well have picked a class the does "shooting" better. If, on the other hand, you need to melee constantly to keep your shields up then you're tanking properly.

Nope you can tank without the melee. Like I said 12,000 effective health and shields,  not too hard to go down with THAT much HP... You don't need to HM to not go down and you can still tank properly. The Juggernaut has portable right-hand advantage unlike every other class in the game, he can easily take the fight to a spawn out in the open if there's no cover , something you can't do with the Turian Soldier. Plus, like I said the Juggernaut, the reason PUGs thing they are being helpful is because they don't die as the Juggernaut, yes he's a good decoy, you can use that situationally for killstreaks at the end of a hack or to prevent a Device, Hack or LZ being overrun. DOENS'T MEAN YOU NEED TO HEAVY MELEE EVERYTHING. You will do more damage and sacrifice zero tankiness by shooting them. And they will still usually aggro on you.

The only thing you do by "tanking properly" is waste time, have no fun and most of all prove that the Juggernaut is OP because ANYONE can do that. It's not tanking properly, it's playing a class inneffeciently and making up a bull**** excuse like "you might as well melee everything instead of shooting things because other classes can do it better" just makes me laugh, by that logic the only classes we should see in the game are the Geth Juggernaut (for tanking), Geth Infiltrators (damage output), Drell Adepts (Bio'splosion God), N7 Paladins (Cryo'splosion God), N7 Furies (Bio'splosion Goddess) and the Male Quarian Engineer (Tech Burst and Fire'splosion God) because "if your gonna be tech bursting/cryo'sploding/bio'sploding/fire'sploding/shooting/tanking then you may as well play as pick a class that can tech burst/cryo'splode/fire'splode/shoot/tank better" and nothind does it better than those 6 classes...

Probably doesn't take much to entertain a guy who cannot understand that fun is subjective.

The point of the jugg is to keep as much aggro on him as possible. By usage of positioning, shooting, meleeing and heavy meleeing. Heavy meleeing is to survive while doing that.

If you are taking aggro from half or more of the enemies you will sometimes need to spend a considerable amount of time heavy meleeing, but you are also doing your job. Since your team mates will be be dodging 50+ percent less attacks.

If you have lots of time to shoot, you had the capacity to draw in more enemies, but was inefficient at doing that.

But yes we should see more of those hyper efficient classes. Especially considering the amount of threads dedicated to "someone else played something wrong".

I have my oppinion on how a class should be played to it's maximum potential, but it doesn't trump that people should have fun in any damn way they like with it.

You dislike the idea of only using the most efficient classes, but at the same time chastices other people for not playing the jugg efficiently enough.

[OniGanon]

LineHolder wrote...

What's a good way to use a decoy? I'm finding the Salarian Engineer's decoy power to be well nigh useless at the moment. I cant seem to cast him further than 2 meters.

That's how it's supposed to work. It spawns a few metres directly in front of you, drawing fire from ranged attackers, generally being ignored by melee attackers (Phantoms will take some shots at it though, which is nice). You want to use it in such a way that when enemies shoot at it, their shots are not heading towards you. Even more preferably, you should have it so that these shots are completely wasted hitting a wall or something. So cast it next to walls, and into corners.

Say you're at a doorway.

Top View
__             _D_| <= Decoy
__]           [_
☻ <= You

Cast at an angle such that the Decoy  appears outside the doorway on the opposie side. Any shots directed at the Decoy will not hit you.

If you have a thin wall or obstacle...

☻ |  | D

You can cast straight through the wall. But don't do this near a corner you're planning to hide behind.


Say you're on a ledge, like that one near the ladder in FB White.

Side View
☻_|
       |_D

Cast the Decoy off the ledge, and it will appear on the level below you. Any shots directed at it will hit nothing but wall. Note that you can also cast UPWARD onto ledges, though in some cases you may need to press your face against the wall to do so.

Combine these things and with practice you'll soon have your Decoys showing up in all sorts of silly places, like on top of the shipping containers you often use for cover throughout the levels.

[Reorte]

Lukan wrote...

Yes they're called CONSUMABLES (because they're meant to be used)  not COLLECTABLES (becaus they're not meant to be hoarded and kept in N7HQ vault).

I'm meant to use that pile of level 1 explosive ammo?