61 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

Once the Krogan were infected with the Genophage, if they did not attempt to have children at their usual rate, and endure the 1000 stillborns to get one live child, their race would die off. No longer in a position where they could develop a culture to control their population, they were basically forced to generate stillborns.

That is a hell of a position to be put in for 1400 years.

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 avril 2013 - 11:42 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Do Krogans lay eggs or give birth to live young? That seems to change throughout the whole damn trilogy and with who you meet.

Behold Bioware, the lords of lore.

[arial]

yep, it is basically a very slow Genocide.

[Wulfram]

I got the impression the Genophage works by making most females infertile, rather than by making every female have a low chance of producing live young. So most females would have to go through one stillbirth and then realise they were infertile, rather than have to go through a 1000 stillbirths to have one live child.

But generally it doesn't seem very clear.

[F4H bandicoot]

Mordin (I think it's mordin anyway) suggests that if they didn't go around getting killed as mercs they'd actually be able to keep population levels up.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

1 live birth per female per year instead of 1000 eggs hatching per year. No population explosion. No starvation.

Prior to being uplifted and having their atmosphere cleaned by the shroud they were probably living in the stone age from the nuclear war. Most did not survive due to radiation poisoning in the water and lack of food. They probably had developed a culture where they were controlling population, but they were an aggressive species and blew themselves up. Sovereign unleashed the Rachni (note -- it was the reaper modified rachni the Krogan recognized). Krogan uplifted and given several worlds as a reward. Krogan rebellions as a result.

[Steelcan]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Mordin (I think it's mordin anyway) suggests that if they didn't go around getting killed as mercs they'd actually be able to keep population levels up.

. He says stable.  And tht a remarkable oversight for him.  He knows that Krogan culture would prevent 1/1000 from bei stable levels

[MegaSovereign]

Krogan life span is ~1000 years. We have to take that into account.

[Steelcan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Krogan life span is ~1000 years. We have to take that into account.

. Theoretical life-span and pobable life-span are two separate things.

[MegaSovereign]

Steelcan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Krogan life span is ~1000 years. We have to take that into account.

. Theoretical life-span and pobable life-span are two separate things.

That's true, but they're far more likely to live longer than say, a human, for example.

[Steelcan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Krogan life span is ~1000 years. We have to take that into account.

. Theoretical life-span and pobable life-span are two separate things.

That's true, but they're far more likely to live longer than say, a human, for example.

. I depends.  We never really learn the average age of a Krogan.  We meet a lot who are absolutely ancient, but for the ones we kill I'm guessing they have to be the Krogan equivalent of teenagers.  Maybe in their 80's 90's?

[Obadiah]

I understood the Krogan would not be a threat, but it just never dawned on me this aspect of behavior that was forced on to them.

Modifié par Obadiah, 06 avril 2013 - 11:46 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Well, to be fair the Krogan's stupidity and greed caused them to get Genophage'd. They kept on going ATTACK ATTACK and breeding all over the place and wouldn't calm the fcuk down until they couldn't Zerg Rush everyone.

Then they go batsh!t for the new few centuries and turn into mercs and don't bother trying to fix their crap homeplanet even if they could still have a viable population.

But still, the salarians could have simply limited the births- like make it so a Krogan can only have a kid every century or so, rather than have them give birth to dead babies, which is extremely cruel and emotionally distressing for the Korgan. Bakara even says as much when you speak to her, how females regularly commit suicide from it.

[Steelcan]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, to be fair the Krogan's stupidity and greed caused them to get Genophage'd. They kept on going ATTACK ATTACK and breeding all over the place and wouldn't calm the fcuk down until they couldn't Zerg Rush everyone.

. Based on what Mordin says in his LM, it sounds like the Krogan were going to get the genophage regardless.  He says "genophage not a punishment, simply adjusts viable fertility levels to accommodate removal from hostile environment"

[nos_astra]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Mordin (I think it's mordin anyway) suggests that if they didn't go around getting killed as mercs they'd actually be able to keep population levels up.

Wrex seemed to have a similar opinion in ME1 when he said that it wasn't the genophage that was killing his species, it was their attitude, their way of life.

[Steelcan]

klarabella wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Mordin (I think it's mordin anyway) suggests that if they didn't go around getting killed as mercs they'd actually be able to keep population levels up.

Wrex seemed to have a similar opinion in ME1 when he said that it wasn't the genophage that was killing his species, it was their attitude, their way of life.

. And yet when rates go slightly up, they get beaten back down again.  Honestly, if the rates had gone up just a little maybe the Krogan would realize they aren't doomed and might focus on rebuilding.  Long shot yes...

[KiwiQuiche]

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, to be fair the Krogan's stupidity and greed caused them to get Genophage'd. They kept on going ATTACK ATTACK and breeding all over the place and wouldn't calm the fcuk down until they couldn't Zerg Rush everyone.

. Based on what Mordin says in his LM, it sounds like the Krogan were going to get the genophage regardless.  He says "genophage not a punishment, simply adjusts viable fertility levels to accommodate removal from hostile environment"

He does have a point...still makes the method and way the geneophage no less horific though.

[Steelcan]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, to be fair the Krogan's stupidity and greed caused them to get Genophage'd. They kept on going ATTACK ATTACK and breeding all over the place and wouldn't calm the fcuk down until they couldn't Zerg Rush everyone.

. Based on what Mordin says in his LM, it sounds like the Krogan were going to get the genophage regardless.  He says "genophage not a punishment, simply adjusts viable fertility levels to accommodate removal from hostile environment"

He does have a point...still makes the method and way the geneophage no less horific though.

. The genophage is certainly justifiable, but at the same time is also bordering on a war crime.  It certainly is one of the better "grey" conflicts in ME.

[Reorte]

The whole problem with the anti-genophage thing boils down to "Anyone got a better idea?" I'm rather sceptical of the krogan themselves having a better idea even if it's cured in ME3, how long before they start breeding at massive rates again and trying to take over everywhere? Even with Wrex and Eve still around I don't really trust them to behave.

[remydat]

The genophage was extreme biological warfare plain and simple. If using chemical and bilogical warfare is considered a war crime then it was a war crime. You don't get to pretend it isn't because you feel you had a good reason. While I understand why it was done, there really is no way to sugar coat it.

Simply nuking a city or two would have been more humane. At least in that scenario you are punishing the actual Krogan living instead of babies. Listening to Bakara explain how Krogan women would wander into the wilderness to be killed by a Thresher Maw after having their babies born stillborn perfectly illustrates the horrific psychological toll it took.

What makes it worse is the Salarians knew the Krogan were not ready to be uplifted but the Salarians and Turians simply valued their lives over the Krogan and so figured let's use them in the Rachni War and we can deal with the fall out later.

[Spartas Husky]

We never really know whether they actually have stillborns with bodies just there lying dead. or they dont actually have kids. Mordin mentions it stops fetus from developing a central nervous sytem so is just a lump of meat really it was never alive... But then reducing fertility rate is another thing. if you are not fertile you just dont get pregnant....

[remydat]

Reorte wrote...

The whole problem with the anti-genophage thing boils down to "Anyone got a better idea?" I'm rather sceptical of the krogan themselves having a better idea even if it's cured in ME3, how long before they start breeding at massive rates again and trying to take over everywhere? Even with Wrex and Eve still around I don't really trust them to behave.

The better idea is to kill them if they become a problem rather than just assume they will be a problem.  Are we somehow pretending like the these other races are so noble and pure.  Did you miss the Turians basically starting a war because humans violated a law from a Council they didn't even know exist?    

Yes the Krogan are aggressive but the Council races have been manipulating and essentially subjugating the rest of the galaxy for millenium.  

And how is this no basically Catalyst logic.  The Krogran rebelled in the past so let's assume they will always rebel and thus harvest their babies to prevent it.  Even the Catalyst wasn't as big a douchebag.  It is stated it tried several solutions and witnessed history repeat itself numerous times before decided on the Harvest.  The Turians and Salarians decided on a mini-harvest based on a sample size of 1.

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 01:08 .

[remydat]

Spartas Husky wrote...

We never really know whether they actually have stillborns with bodies just there lying dead. or they dont actually have kids. Mordin mentions it stops fetus from developing a central nervous sytem so is just a lump of meat really it was never alive... But then reducing fertility rate is another thing. if you are not fertile you just dont get pregnant....

Bakara says they have stillborns.  She mentions it at 4:40 of this video.

[Reorte]

remydat wrote...

Reorte wrote...

The whole problem with the anti-genophage thing boils down to "Anyone got a better idea?" I'm rather sceptical of the krogan themselves having a better idea even if it's cured in ME3, how long before they start breeding at massive rates again and trying to take over everywhere? Even with Wrex and Eve still around I don't really trust them to behave.

The better idea is to kill them if they become a problem rather than just assume they will be a problem.  Are we somehow pretending like the these other races are so noble and pure.  Did you miss the Turians basically starting a war because humans violated a law from a Council they didn't even know exist?    

Yes the Krogan are aggressive but the Council races have been manipulating and essentially subjugating the rest of the galaxy for millenium.  

And how is this no basically Catalyst logic.  The Krogran rebelled in the past so let's assume they will always rebel and thus harvest their babies to prevent it.  Even the Catalyst wasn't as big a douchebag.  It is stated it tried several solutions and witnessed history repeat itself numerous times before decided on the Harvest.  The Turians and Salarians decided on a mini-harvest based on a sample size of 1.

The krogan were being a problem, they were creating havoc throughout the galaxy (the Krogan Rebellions).

[remydat]

Reorte wrote...

The krogan were being a problem, they were creating havoc throughout the galaxy (the Krogan Rebellions).

Does that prove they will be a problem again?  Once again, how are you not being just like the Catalyst?  In fact this logic is worse because you are codemning children to be subject to a harvest based on a single example.  Even the Catalyst tried multiple solutions and had numerous examples before concluding the Harvest is the only way.  You have just decided it based on one example.  I repeat one example.  How do you justify that?

Even with Wreav in power, Eve notes the females will refuse to have children if he insists on using them for war.  She says they will opt for Civil War rather than have their children sent to the slaughterhouse again.  So not only are you willing to condemn them based on a single example.  You will do so despite being provided evidence that not all Krogan will opt for war.

I mean what do you want your Reaper name to be?