61 réponses à ce sujet

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

Does that prove they will be a problem again?  Once again, how are you not being just like the Catalyst?  In fact this logic is worse because you are codemning children to be subject to a harvest based on a single example.  Even the Catalyst tried multiple solutions and had numerous examples before concluding the Harvest is the only way.  You have just decided it based on one example.  I repeat one example.  How do you justify that?

Even with Wreav in power, Eve notes the females will refuse to have children if he insists on using them for war.  She says they will opt for Civil War rather than have their children sent to the slaughterhouse again.  So not only are you willing to condemn them based on a single example.  You will do so despite being provided evidence that not all Krogan will opt for war.

I mean what do you want your Reaper name to be?

I don't think he is saying there's a 100% chance the Krogan will repeat history.

But there is still a chance that they will. And that is why people are concerned. The future is not written in story and is subject to change, but some paths are very apparent to the people in the current.


Krogan are physically superior to the other Races, and they also breed MUCH faster than even Asari or Humans. They also live for very long, and do not suffer so many sicknesses, are less liable to serious injury; further increasing their population growth.

If left unchecked and given enough time, the Krogan would outgrow the other races.
The only way to prevent that is to put extremely strict rules on the Krogans, limit them to only colonizing X amount of worlds, constructing X amount of Dreadnoughts, and breeding no more than X amount of children.

And I do not think the Krogan would like to be told what to do by the Council.

[KiwiQuiche]

remydat wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

We never really know whether they actually have stillborns with bodies just there lying dead. or they dont actually have kids. Mordin mentions it stops fetus from developing a central nervous sytem so is just a lump of meat really it was never alive... But then reducing fertility rate is another thing. if you are not fertile you just dont get pregnant....

Bakara says they have stillborns.  She mentions it at 4:40 of this video.

EDI also mentions Krogan lay eggs....so everyone seems to contradict everyone in the whole "how Krogans give birth" department. Go Bioware.

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

I don't think he is saying there's a 100% chance the Krogan will repeat history.

But there is still a chance that they will. And that is why people are concerned. The future is not written in story and is subject to change, but some paths are very apparent to the people in the current.

Krogan are physically superior to the other Races, and they also breed MUCH faster than even Asari or Humans.

They also live for very long, and do not suffer so many sicknesses, are less liable to serious injury; further increasing their population growth.

If left unchecked and given enough time, the Krogan would outgrow the other races.
The only way to prevent that is to put extremely strict rules on the Krogans, limit them to only colonizing X amount of worlds, constructing X amount of Dreadnoughts, and breeding no more than X amount of children.

And I do not think the Krogan would like to be told what to do by the Council.

This still ignores the question.  How is this logic any different than the Catalyst's? That is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that people seem to be avoiding.  All I want is for you to logically explain how you are not basically doing what the Catalyst did. 

Once again, Eve said the females would refuse to give birth if Wreav insisted on using them for revenge.  Why should you play God and decide for her and those females that they shouldn't be given a chance to determine their own path?  

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 02:04 .

[remydat]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EDI also mentions Krogan lay eggs....so everyone seems to contradict everyone in the whole "how Krogans give birth" department. Go Bioware.

That doesn't necessarily contradict.  An egg is essentially an external womb.  If a chicken laid 1,000 eggs and nurtured them and kept them warm, that chicken could still give birth and all those thousand chicks be stillborn.  Stillborn does not refer to the method of gestation (ie womb versus egg), it refers to the state of the fetus upon birth regardless of whether that birth is from a womb or from an egg.

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

This still ignores the question.  How is this logic any different than the Catalyst's? That is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that people seem to be avoiding.  All I want is for you to logically explain how you are not basically doing what the Catalyst did. 

Once again, Eve said the females would refuse to give birth if Wreav insisted on using them for revenge.  Why should you play God and decide for her and those females that they shouldn't be given a chance to determine their own path?  

- The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics to save them from synthetics.
- The Salarians are putting down the Krogan to secure galactic order & the power of the Council races.

The problem is not if Eve will let the women give birth or not if Wrex intends to use them for war.

The problem comes a lot furtherdown the road, because in order to keep the power balance between the different races in the galaxy(to avoid one race becoming vastly superior to the other), the Krogan will have to be able to accept heavy restrictions to their population(not allowing more than a certain population), and not being able to colonize any world as they please.

The concern is not what happens right after the war, but what happens 100 to 200 years down the line.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 07 avril 2013 - 02:16 .

[KiwiQuiche]

remydat wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EDI also mentions Krogan lay eggs....so everyone seems to contradict everyone in the whole "how Krogans give birth" department. Go Bioware.

That doesn't necessarily contradict.  An egg is essentially an external womb.  If a chicken laid 1,000 eggs and nurtured them and kept them warm, that chicken could still give birth and all those thousand chicks be stillborn.  Stillborn does not refer to the method of gestation (ie womb versus egg), it refers to the state of the fetus upon birth regardless of whether that birth is from a womb or from an egg.

Yeah, but some say they give birth to still borns, then they lay eggs, now their babies aren't fully formed in their wombs- they keep on saying it does one thing and then says it does something else. It's confusing.

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

- The Catalyst is using synthetics to kill organics to save them from synthetics.
- The Salarians are putting down the Krogan to secure galactic order & the power of the Council races.

The problem is not if Eve will let the women give birth or not if Wrex intends to use them for war.

The problem comes a lot furtherdown the road, because in order to keep the power balance between the different races in the galaxy(to avoid one race becoming vastly superior to the other), the Krogan will have to be able to accept heavy restrictions to their population(not allowing more than a certain population), and not being able to colonize any world as they please.

The concern is not what happens right after the war, but what happens 100 to 200 years down the line.

You have noted their different motives.  I asked how is the logic different.  The Catalyst concluded after MULTIPLE SOLUTIONS and NUMEROUS EXAMPLES, that the harvest was the only solution to it's problem.  You guys are concluding without exploring any other solutions and based on a single example that the solution is to harvest Krogan babies.  So I am not asking about different motives, I am asking how is the logic not equally perverse?  What if it is 500 years for now? Or 1,000?  How far into the future does this hypothetical have to be before you decided maybe it isn't ok to harvest Krogan babies today to prevent this alleged future apocalypse?  What time frame do you draw the line?  If scientists announced today that Earth could only support life at the rate we are growing for another 200 years, whose babies would you kill first?

The Asari, Turian and Salarian are already superior to the other races.  They impose their will on anyone to the point of starting wars when a race like the humans access a Mass Relay.  They are not so much concerned with perserving galactic order as they are concerned with perserving THEIR RULE.

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 02:28 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

After the citadel dlc, I now firmly believe the turians were heavily influential in the designing and implementation of the genophage. It matches their scorched earth style of tactics and their military philosophy of creating a condition so harsh, that the target enemy will never even be capable of becoming a threat ever again.

[remydat]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

After the citadel dlc, I now firmly believe the turians were heavily influential in the designing and implementation of the genophage. It matches their scorched earth style of tactics and their military philosophy of creating a condition so harsh, that the target enemy will never even be capable of becoming a threat ever again.

I suppose the one benefit to them unleashing the genophage on the Krogan is that it likely prevented them from trying it on humans who had their own ideas about colonizing the galaxy.  They probably were p*ssed during the 1st Contact War that they could only stomach sterilizing one race per cycle.

[Cainhurst Crow]

remydat wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

After the citadel dlc, I now firmly believe the turians were heavily influential in the designing and implementation of the genophage. It matches their scorched earth style of tactics and their military philosophy of creating a condition so harsh, that the target enemy will never even be capable of becoming a threat ever again.

I suppose the one benefit to them unleashing the genophage on the Krogan is that it likely prevented them from trying it on humans who had their own ideas about colonizing the galaxy.  They probably were p*ssed during the 1st Contact War that they could only stomach sterilizing one race per cycle.

In all honesty, I think they would have released the genophage on us if they could, but the council stepped in to prevent it.

[Vargeisa]

remydat wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EDI also mentions Krogan lay eggs....so everyone seems to contradict everyone in the whole "how Krogans give birth" department. Go Bioware.

That doesn't necessarily contradict.  An egg is essentially an external womb.  If a chicken laid 1,000 eggs and nurtured them and kept them warm, that chicken could still give birth and all those thousand chicks be stillborn.  Stillborn does not refer to the method of gestation (ie womb versus egg), it refers to the state of the fetus upon birth regardless of whether that birth is from a womb or from an egg.

Chickens don't get born, they hatch.
I guess they used the term stillborn because it sounds more dramatic than "My egg didn't hatch"

[remydat]

TimtheEnchanter wrote...

Chickens don't get born, they hatch.
I guess they used the term stillborn because it sounds more dramatic than "My egg didn't hatch"

Semantics.  And you can still have stillborn chickens.  Stillborn is when the fetus dies while still in the womb or in the egg.  It's just that the mother still gives birth because it is close to full term.  Here is a website where people talk about their stillborn chickens. 

http://www.chickenfo...stillborn-2510/

[Cainhurst Crow]

If chickens could talk, they would probably use the word stillborn to describe the eggs we humans eat.

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

You have noted their different motives.  I asked how is the logic different.  The Catalyst concluded after MULTIPLE SOLUTIONS and NUMEROUS EXAMPLES, that the harvest was the only solution to it's problem.  You guys are concluding without exploring any other solutions and based on a single example that the solution is to harvest Krogan babies.  So I am not asking about different motives, I am asking how is the logic not equally perverse?  What if it is 500 years for now? Or 1,000?  How far into the future does this hypothetical have to be before you decided maybe it isn't ok to harvest Krogan babies today to prevent this alleged future apocalypse?  What time frame do you draw the line?  If scientists announced today that Earth could only support life at the rate we are growing for another 200 years, whose babies would you kill first?

The Asari, Turian and Salarian are already superior to the other races.  They impose their will on anyone to the point of starting wars when a race like the humans access a Mass Relay.  They are not so much concerned with perserving galactic order as they are concerned with perserving THEIR RULE.

I would not call them superior to everyone. The humans are rising surprisingly fast, and will probably be in line with the other races power wise in not long. But to any other race, then yes, they are superior.

Also, I did explore another solution:
- Heavy restrictions with birth certificates, rule on how many worlds they could colonize and how many Dreadnoughts they could build.

Such a restriction would balance the Krogan's power, and thus enable them to live in galactic harmony with the other races.

The problem with this, however, is that the Krogan will have to accept this. There is guarantee that they will either.  And if they don't, there will be hell to pay.

While restrictions is a possible course of action, the genophage is still the safest course of action.

Ending the genophage sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but not when the rest of the galaxy is in disarray after the Reapers.
I would wait a few centuries after the war once the other races had built up their armies, and then cured the Genophage and let the Krogan out on a 'trial run'.

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

I would not call them superior to everyone. The humans are rising surprisingly fast, and will probably be in line with the other races power wise in not long. But to any other race, then yes, they are superior.

Also, I did explore another solution:
- Heavy restrictions with birth certificates, rule on how many worlds they could colonize and how many Dreadnoughts they could build.

Such a restriction would balance the Krogan's power, and thus enable them to live in galactic harmony with the other races.

The problem with this, however, is that the Krogan will have to accept this. There is guarantee that they will either.  And if they don't, there will be hell to pay.

While restrictions is a possible course of action, the genophage is still the safest course of action.

Ending the genophage sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but not when the rest of the galaxy is in disarray after the Reapers.
I would wait a few centuries after the war once the other races had built up their armies, and then cured the Genophage and let the Krogan out on a 'trial run'.

Those 3 council races certainly consider themselves superior.  Did you miss how for 3 games they basically call all the shots for the galaxy?

You still have not explained how this is not the Catalyst's logic.  Here is a possible solution.  Why don't we see how they deal with it.  It is their life.  You are not god.  Again, this is Catalyst logic.  If the Krogan get out of line then just nuke them.  I fail to see why you need to kill Krogan babies for something that may never come to pass. 

I mean honestly, what gives you the right to decide whether Krogan babies live or die?  Why do you get to impose your will on Krogans based on you deterministic opinion of them?

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...


Those 3 council races certainly consider themselves superior.  Did you miss how for 3 games they basically call all the shots for the galaxy?

You still have not explained how this is not the Catalyst's logic.  Here is a possible solution.  Why don't we see how they deal with it.  It is their life.  You are not god.  Again, this is Catalyst logic.  If the Krogan get out of line then just nuke them.  I fail to see why you need to kill Krogan babies for something that may never come to pass. 

I mean honestly, what gives you the right to decide whether Krogan babies live or die?  Why do you get to impose your will on Krogans based on you deterministic opinion of them?

Uhm... if you read my post, you'd see that I mentioned giving the Krogan a second chance ;P

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

Uhm... if you read my post, you'd see that I mentioned giving the Krogan a second chance ;P

By waiting a few centuries?  How does that work? Hey guys, come bail the Turians out who infected you with the Genophage and planted a bomb on Tuchanka and then in a few hundred years when I am dead, maybe just maybe we can cure the genophage.

That is not a second chance, that is basically using the Krogans as your cannon fodder.  Now if I missed this second chance that allows them to decide their own future then I apologize but unilaterally imposing your will on them is playing god.

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

By waiting a few centuries?  How does that work? Hey guys, come bail the Turians out who infected you with the Genophage and planted a bomb on Tuchanka and then in a few hundred years when I am dead, maybe just maybe we can cure the genophage.

That is not a second chance, that is basically using the Krogans as your cannon fodder.  Now if I missed this second chance that allows them to decide their own future then I apologize but unilaterally imposing your will on them is playing god.

I never said we'd tell them.
We would trick them and sabotage the shroud, and they would not realize what we had actually done until the end of the Reaper war.

Then we could rebuild, and design a galactic re-integration program for the Krogans, and offer them a cure for the genophage if they agreed to these and these conditions.

Because we had time to rebuild our militaries, we would also be able to take action should the Krogan prove violent and unwilling to cooperate, and being more powerful than them would dissuade them taking options such as war; simply because they knew they would lose.

It would be the safest way.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 07 avril 2013 - 05:37 .

[Froswald]

SinerAthin wrote...

remydat wrote...

By waiting a few centuries?  How does that work? Hey guys, come bail the Turians out who infected you with the Genophage and planted a bomb on Tuchanka and then in a few hundred years when I am dead, maybe just maybe we can cure the genophage.

That is not a second chance, that is basically using the Krogans as your cannon fodder.  Now if I missed this second chance that allows them to decide their own future then I apologize but unilaterally imposing your will on them is playing god.

I never said we'd tell them.
We would trick them and sabotage the shroud, and they would not realize what we had actually done until the end of the Reaper war.

Then we could rebuild, and design a galactic re-integration program for the Krogans, and offer them a cure for the genophage if they agreed to these and these conditions.

Because we had time to rebuild our militaries, we would also be able to take action should the Krogan prove violent and unwilling to cooperate, and being more powerful than them would dissuade them taking options such as war; simply because they knew they would lose.

It would be the safest way.

I don't know about you, but I would never trust a group that did that to me or my species. Hell, I'd preach for war right then and there, and a brutal one at that.

Eve said that she'll do her best to see the krogan not waste this chance her people were given if the genophage is cured, and I think she'll do just that. But if the krogan got out of hand again, it'd be best to just kill every single krogan. The genophage is too harsh a punishment for any species, but extinction at least gives them dying dignity. 

What I am wondering is if another genophage could be created that simply alters krogan birth rates to a reasonable one? This new genophage would be the requirement for krogan to enter the galactic community at large. No stillbirths, just a reduced birth rate. It'd be a dick move, but FAR more palatable than killing them all off. I could even see Wrex accepting it, even if he'd hate whoever offered the deal for the rest of his days.

[SinerAthin]

Froswald wrote...

I don't know about you, but I would never trust a group that did that to me or my species. Hell, I'd preach for war right then and there, and a brutal one at that.

Well, the beauty of my idea is; we don't even need the Krogan's forgiveness.
A genophage affected Krogan would be in no condition to fight the other races, even after they were wounded by the Reaper war.

We would just extend our hand, and wait for the Krogan to eventually forgive us.

They could sit on their rock for a 1000 years and be grumpy about it if they so wished while we dangled the cure infront of them, alongside the treaty.
But I think most Krogans, especially the females, would be willing to live under a few rules if it meant living better lives, and we probably wouldn't have to wait long for them to come crawling back, even though they are known to be some of the galaxy's most stubborn creatures.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 07 avril 2013 - 06:52 .

[Bill Casey]

A genophage affected Krogan after the reaper war are dead...

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

Well, the beauty of my idea is; we don't even need the Krogan's forgiveness.
A genophage affected Krogan would be in no condition to fight the other races, even after they were wounded by the Reaper war.

We would just extend our hand, and wait for the Krogan to eventually forgive us.

They could sit on their rock for a 1000 years and be grumpy about it if they so wished while we dangled the cure infront of them, alongside the treaty.
But I think most Krogans, especially the females, would be willing to live under a few rules if it meant living better lives, and we probably wouldn't have to wait long for them to come crawling back, even though they are known to be some of the galaxy's most stubborn creatures.

So basically you want to play god or Catalyst? Let's use the Krogan as cannon fodder against the Reapers and then trick them into thinking the biological weapon that resulted in some females wandering in the wilderness so they can be killed by a thresher maw is cured.

And you are better than the Krogan how?  At least they have the decency to look you in the eye when they kill instead of cowardly stab you in the back because hey in 500 years you might be a problem, Lol.

[Froswald]

SinerAthin wrote...

Froswald wrote...

I don't know about you, but I would never trust a group that did that to me or my species. Hell, I'd preach for war right then and there, and a brutal one at that.

Well, the beauty of my idea is; we don't even need the Krogan's forgiveness.
A genophage affected Krogan would be in no condition to fight the other races, even after they were wounded by the Reaper war.

We would just extend our hand, and wait for the Krogan to eventually forgive us.

They could sit on their rock for a 1000 years and be grumpy about it if they so wished while we dangled the cure infront of them, alongside the treaty.
But I think most Krogans, especially the females, would be willing to live under a few rules if it meant living better lives, and we probably wouldn't have to wait long for them to come crawling back, even though they are known to be some of the galaxy's most stubborn creatures.

Krogan love to use underhanded tactics when needed, who's to say they won't just accept the rules and then after they're built up strength lash out with a vengance? Even if you re-inflict the genophage, would it really be worth the inevitable slaughter that would hit both sides? This time I guarantee the krogan won't pittle down after being infected, they'll get even angrier.

[Reorte]

Is someone seriously suggesting that the genophage is comparable to what the Catalyst did?! What sort of logic is "have some law and order with consequences for going out of control is equivalent to kill everyone and mulch them down on the basis of a ridiculous assumption"?

[Bleachrude]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

remydat wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

We never really know whether they actually have stillborns with bodies just there lying dead. or they dont actually have kids. Mordin mentions it stops fetus from developing a central nervous sytem so is just a lump of meat really it was never alive... But then reducing fertility rate is another thing. if you are not fertile you just dont get pregnant....

Bakara says they have stillborns.  She mentions it at 4:40 of this video.

EDI also mentions Krogan lay eggs....so everyone seems to contradict everyone in the whole "how Krogans give birth" department. Go Bioware.

Not necessarily a contradiction.

What you;re assuming is that each egg that was actually laid is viable. You can have egglaying and stillbirth at the same time..

Look at it this way...pre-genophage, a krogan female can lay eggs and barring predation or accident, each egg would hatch after a suitable incubation period.

What the genophage could do is that each egg would STILL be laid but no longer would each egg hatech, just one in a thousand....

In real life, Many fish species.reptiles can laid an enormous amount of eggs and follow something similar in that either a large majority of eggs hatch (and are subsequently preyed upon before the child reaches breeding age/maturity) or that only a few of the eggs actually become viable and hatch....