61 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Bleachrude wrote...
Not necessarily a contradiction.

What you;re assuming is that each egg that was actually laid is viable. You can have egglaying and stillbirth at the same time...

Yeah, but the impact on the player is a bit different.

Dead krogan embryos/fetusses don't hatch which means these eggs are basically intact and maybe (depending on the egg's shell) even indistinguishable from infertilized eggs.

Sounds a lot less gruesome and dramatic than imagining a mother going through hours of painful labor to give birth to a tiny dead body, a thousand times a year.

It's actually pretty disgusting how batantly Bioware were trying to manipulate us.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 avril 2013 - 12:52 .

[Steelcan]

klarabella wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
Not necessarily a contradiction.

What you;re assuming is that each egg that was actually laid is viable. You can have egglaying and stillbirth at the same time...

Yeah, but the impact on the player is a bit different.

Imagine a few hundred eggs ... and now try to imagine stillbirth from eggs. Dead krogan embryos/fetusses don't hatch which means these eggs are basically intact and maybe (depending on the egg's shell) even indistinguishable from infertilized eggs.

Sounds a lot less gruesome and dramatic than imagining a mother going through hours of painful labor to give birth to a tiny dead body a thousand times.

It's actually pretty disgusting how batantly Bioware were trying to manipulate us.

. I don't think it'd be any less traumatic for the mother.  Laying eggs isn't exactly a pleasant experience.

[Megaton_Hope]

Depending how big Krogan eggs are relative to the cloaca, might not be a huge deal. Like a bowel movement, maybe.

[nos_astra]

Steelcan wrote...
I don't think it'd be any less traumatic for the mother.  Laying eggs isn't exactly a pleasant experience.

I specifially said "to the player". I don't know whether laying an egg is pleasant or not but considering that for many species it takes seconds to minutes (the size of the egg can vary, too) I dare say it compares more to consipation.

The thing is a clutch of mostly intact eggs doesn't have the same impact ON THE PLAYER that piles of dead krogan babies have. And Bioware certainly didn't bother not to antropomorphize the krogan females and simply equate stillbirth from eggs to human stillbirth.

They go as far as having Eve tell me how she really suffered when her first kid was stillborn. <_< Maybe she wanted to say the first hundred stillborns? Did she give the intact egg a name? Did she crack it open?

Modifié par klarabella, 07 avril 2013 - 01:29 .

[TobiTobsen]

Steelcan wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
Not necessarily a contradiction.

What you;re assuming is that each egg that was actually laid is viable. You can have egglaying and stillbirth at the same time...

Yeah, but the impact on the player is a bit different.

Imagine a few hundred eggs ... and now try to imagine stillbirth from eggs. Dead krogan embryos/fetusses don't hatch which means these eggs are basically intact and maybe (depending on the egg's shell) even indistinguishable from infertilized eggs.

Sounds a lot less gruesome and dramatic than imagining a mother going through hours of painful labor to give birth to a tiny dead body a thousand times.

It's actually pretty disgusting how batantly Bioware were trying to manipulate us.

. I don't think it'd be any less traumatic for the mother.  Laying eggs isn't exactly a pleasant experience.

AFAIK the Clan Weyrloc ambassador was speaking of the piles of children that never lived. Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, but that sound like stillborn babies and not unhatched eggs to me.

It's horrific either way. Causing infertility would still be a war crime but at least more "humane" than causing stillbirths on such a scale.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 07 avril 2013 - 01:18 .

[nos_astra]

TobiTobsen wrote...
AFAIK the Clan Weyrloc ambassador was speaking of the piles of children that never lived. Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, but that sound like stillborn babies and not unhatched eggs to me.

And now I'm trying to imagine a krogan female popping out up to 1,000 live young a year. Makes me wonder when they would have time to eat or sleep or mate.

[remydat]

Reorte wrote...

Is someone seriously suggesting that the genophage is comparable to what the Catalyst did?! What sort of logic is "have some law and order with consequences for going out of control is equivalent to kill everyone and mulch them down on the basis of a ridiculous assumption"?

You are making an assumption that the Krogan going out of control is inevitable.  That they won't be able to figure out for themsleves how to solve their problems and avoid conflict. You are basing that on on at best 2 examples and without trying any other alternatives.

The Catalyst made the same conclusion ie conflict is inevitable.  In it's defense it had the decency to try other solutions first and it observed the conflict happen numerous times before deciding the harvest was the only way.

So how is your logic not the same and more perverse.  You are playing god and have pre-ordained that despite what Wrex or Eve tells you will essentially harvest Krogan babies to avoid a conflict hat is only a hypothetical and could hapen tomorow, 1,000 years from now or never.

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
AFAIK the Clan Weyrloc ambassador was speaking of the piles of children that never lived. Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, but that sound like stillborn babies and not unhatched eggs to me.

And now I'm trying to imagine a krogan female popping out up to 1,000 live young a year. Makes me wonder when they would have time to eat or sleep or mate.

Just because they have the ability to give birth 1,000 times a year doesn't mean they will.  Do women give birth every year from the time they are first able to conceive to the time they hit menopause?  I don't see a lot of women with say 30 kids.

Also I think the Genophage results in both infertility in some women and stillbirth in others.  It is not an either or proposition.  Eve tells us some women are completely infertile which means they would be unable to even conceive a child and others give birth to stillborn like her.

[Reorte]

remydat wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Is someone seriously suggesting that the genophage is comparable to what the Catalyst did?! What sort of logic is "have some law and order with consequences for going out of control is equivalent to kill everyone and mulch them down on the basis of a ridiculous assumption"?

You are making an assumption that the Krogan going out of control is inevitable.  That they won't be able to figure out for themsleves how to solve their problems and avoid conflict. You are basing that on on at best 2 examples and without trying any other alternatives.

The Catalyst made the same conclusion ie conflict is inevitable.  In it's defense it had the decency to try other solutions first and it observed the conflict happen numerous times before deciding the harvest was the only way.

So how is your logic not the same and more perverse.  You are playing god and have pre-ordained that despite what Wrex or Eve tells you will essentially harvest Krogan babies to avoid a conflict hat is only a hypothetical and could hapen tomorow, 1,000 years from now or never.

The genophage was created precisely because the krogan did go out of control. I cured the genophage, willing to give them a chance to behave sensibly whilst at the same time it makes sense to be cautious.

That said, the reasoning behind being wary of the krogan is far more grounded in rational thinking than the Catalyst - it is making wildly crazy assumptions where there's plenty of track record of the krogan being domineering given the chance and little to suggest that they've ever behaved otherwise.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
Just because they have the ability to give birth 1,000 times a year doesn't mean they will.  Do women give birth every year from the time they are first able to conceive to the time they hit menopause?  I don't see a lot of women with say 30 kids.

True, but the mere possibility rules out live births for krogan which was sort of the point of that train of thought

Modifié par klarabella, 07 avril 2013 - 05:49 .

[SinerAthin]

Froswald wrote...

Krogan love to use underhanded tactics when needed, who's to say they won't just accept the rules and then after they're built up strength lash out with a vengance?
Even if you re-inflict the genophage, would it really be worth the
inevitable slaughter that would hit both sides? This time I guarantee
the krogan won't pittle down after being infected, they'll get even
angrier.

That was exactly why I said we would use restrictions in my previous posts, such as only being allowed to breed X amount of children, allowed to colonize X amount of worlds, and only allowed to build X amount of Dreadnoughts, if any at all.

That won't be a problem.

remydat wrote...

So basically you want to play god or Catalyst? Let's use the Krogan as cannon fodder against the Reapers and then trick them into thinking the biological weapon that resulted in some females wandering in the wilderness so they can be killed by a thresher maw is cured.

And you are better than the Krogan how?  At least they have the decency to look you in the eye when they kill instead of cowardly stab you in the back because hey in 500 years you might be a problem, Lol.

This isn't about personal honor, ideals of honesty or ethics. I never claimed to be the white knight.

It is about achieving two goals, which is; Securing galactic peace and stability, while at the same time giving the Krogan a chance to redeem themselves and join the intergalactic society, in the safest manner possible.

You could call it the greater good.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 07 avril 2013 - 06:43 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Going off of Okeer's dialogue, I think they lay eggs. He calls the dead "stillborn" but nonetheless says that it kills by the clutch (of eggs). Krogan are reptiles, afterall, and reptiles commonly lay eggs.

Where the genophage is concerned, I believe they lower the total number of viable births down to one out of the 1,000 possible eggs... and then that one doesn't usually make it.

This whole topic is never made completely clear, however.

Then Wrex says that Bakara is "pregnant" on Earth... which contradicts that whole idea directly. Yeah, I don't know what to think. Luckily people don't scrutinize these issues as much as... other ones!

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 avril 2013 - 07:15 .