17 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

Here's the interesting vid.

Lots to discuss. Do you agree with one or more of these great game-makers? Do you enjoy pure story in a way Thirty Flights of Loving, Walking Dead or others do it?

[slimgrin]

Tom Bissel? Lolololo...

And way to jump on the band wagon Avelone. These guys want to erase text and writing from games because it's not worthy, games don't need it, we can just hop on mushrooms in Mario Bros and that's all the story we need. Screw them.

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 avril 2013 - 11:57 .

[eroeru]

I now read some reviews by Bissel - and he's not the best reviewer (can't understand anything he says about Witcher). Didn't find much to disagree with in this vid though.

As to successful experiments in losing text - they're all good, I enjoyed those games. And I didn't hear anything too bashful in this particular video.

[slimgrin]

He's a close minded idiot. I'll leave now and let others chime in.

[Roflbox]

slimgrin wrote...

Tom Bissel? Lolololo...

And way to jump on the band wagon Avelone. These guys want to erase text and writing from games because it's not worthy, games don't need it, we can just hop on mushrooms in Mario Bros and that's all the story we need. Screw them.

Right because Avellone hasn't been saying this since Planescape. He has always liked games that can tell a story without needing so many words like Journey or Portal. One of his favorite moments he likes to bring up in Fallout: New Vegas isn't something he wrote but a tiny even that Sawyer experienced by just playing.

Avellonewrote...

One particular example that comes to mind is .. Josh Sawyer, who was playing through Fallout New Vegas for the second time. And he decided to ****** off both factions in the game, who hate each other. And when you ****** off either faction in the game, assassins will attack you, which is pretty typical for showing reputation mechanics in games.
But because he had chosen to ****** off both factions, which is something we hadn't accounted for, he woke up in the Mojave Wasteland one morning to find that both assassin squads had spawned in but rather than attack him, they launched at each other, murdered each other, and Josh just went by, whistled, looted all their corpses... And I could have spent like a month and a half trying to do a narrative design solution that would set up that situation, but because of the mechanics Josh was able to have a story all his own because of his actions in the environment.

Then there is this. I would say pretty much everyone loves the writing in PS:T and the gameplay well is ok but Avellone likes emergent gameplay.

Avellonewrote...
I’d argue dialogue and dialogue exploration was the principal mechanic in Torment (not something I’m proud of, wish I’d pushed for more dungeons and other mechanics). Now, the dialogue is more along the lines of Fallout 2/BG2 density, and it’ll have the same feel, which is appropriate for an Infinity Engine game. We do plan to have dialogues that effect the density and agendas of battles (and allowing you to avoid a chunk of them at an undetermined % of frequency).

Modifié par Roflbox, 07 avril 2013 - 12:40 .

[Roflbox]

*double post*

Modifié par Roflbox, 07 avril 2013 - 12:39 .

[slimgrin]

I don't agree with Avellone. I understand RPG's need text...as a writer, I'd expect him to understand that. Maybe he and Tom Bissel can team up and make the ultimate non-text RPG - Gears of War..something. Bisell loves his Gears of War as a Story telling medium. Maybe Avellone would be on board with that.

Oh, and Planescape is boring as hell. I've tried it twice. Can't do it. Overrated.

Modifié par slimgrin, 07 avril 2013 - 01:09 .

[In Exile]

Avellone likes a very different kind of genre that what he's worked in. For example, create-your-own party.

And I absolutely insist that the situation described with the assassins & Sawyer doesn't constitute narrative, any more than my blowing up a plane with pistols in Saint's Row 3 counts as narrative.

Edit:

To clarify, this whole "emergent narrative" schtick seems to really be saying that absolutely anything that happens in a game that isn't scripted but a result of different game elements interact is "narrative". And if that's the definition people want to roll with, fine... but it's absolutely meaningless because every single game ever created has an infinite number of these situations. All it takes is for some set of things to happen and for me to make up a story around them - or to use the Sawyer example, not even that. 

Modifié par In Exile, 07 avril 2013 - 01:30 .

[Megaton_Hope]

"Narrative" and "text," two very different things. Text has next to no place in video games which otherwise consist of action and exploration. Narrative has a place in almost any kind of game. (Puzzle games excepted.)

I agreed with a lot of what Bissell had to say, except that I despise Dark Souls, and its lore being both poorly hacked together and front and center is a big part of the reason. The one guy who I'm not going back to attach a name to had a good point about just wanting to explore a game world without getting shot at, which is a feeling I've had before. (There are parts of Panzer Dragoon Orta where you largely can do that, and it's very good.) Though unless there's some kind of hook to the game where you can do that and still be doing, well, something else, I would get bored quickly.

I think that big exposition dumps in the forms of books and memos and such can be avoided easily enough by using sound. Deaf players can turn on closed captions. Works for everybody.

[eroeru]

^ Again, how can you say that about DS without actually having much experience with the game?

Given, the game does require a controller to be enjoyed and be presentable.

Modifié par eroeru, 07 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I have mentioned that the lore rubs me the wrong way, right? You get a fairly hefty dose of lords and dragons and flames in the prologue, comparable to what you get with Dragon Age: Origins.

[eroeru]

Understood. To each their own and so on.

[Pallid]

slimgrin wrote...
Oh, and Planescape is boring as hell. I've tried it twice. Can't do it. Overrated.

You're crazy man. I like you, but you're crazy.

[Addai]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other, or exclusive. I love lore, and I love text in games, and also contextual and emergent storytelling. My first RPG and still probably my favorite game experience is purely text- MUSH and cooperative writing. But exploration and contextual unfolding story also grabs me, because it allows me to simulate the experience of writing a story. The least effective means, for me, is the cinematic. Unfortunately that's probably the most effective for most people, so I'll always be left with few games to love. C'est la vie.

Good link, at any rate.

[Urgon]

slimgrin wrote...
Oh, and Planescape is boring as hell. I've tried it twice. Can't do it. Overrated.

Maybe that is because you like actiony combat instead? That can color your experience.
That's the reason that i found both Witchers boring and unplayable. I couldn't bother to finish either one, when by all descriptions the games should be right up my alley. The twitchy combat killed them for me.
Maybe something similar happened to you?

[slimgrin]

Urgon wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Oh, and Planescape is boring as hell. I've tried it twice. Can't do it. Overrated.

Maybe that is because you like actiony combat instead? That can color your experience.
That's the reason that i found both Witchers boring and unplayable. I couldn't bother to finish either one, when by all descriptions the games should be right up my alley. The twitchy combat killed them for me.
Maybe something similar happened to you?

I shouldn't say its overrated, but yeah just not my type of game. I will say the writing seemed good. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree that events that happen in game randomly are not really narrative. They should not ever replace actual story and writing and given that most video games are putting you in eithe r a different time, place or world (sometimes all three), there needs to be context to that world. And while data dumps and relying on tropes seems trite, it is used because it is one of the most effective tools in bringing a foreign player up-to-date on how a world works.

That being said, unscripted events should not be discounted. In the MMO Rift, occasionally huge dimensional gates (called rifts) can open up and spill out enemies, requiring nearby players to team up and work together in order to have a good chance at survival. These types of intense events can be unifying for players, who look around at their new brothers-in-arms with an adrenaline fueled sense of accomplishment after the encounter is said and done. Making it through a hard, highly unanticipated encounter is a conversation opener, to say the least.

So while I would hate emergent gameplay to be ignored or not taken into account, I don't think it should ever replace a strong story coupled with well-designed player agency.