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[INH56]

I've recently been looking over ME1's endgame sequence, and I've noticed something that really bugs me.

If you examine the talk with Vigil closely, he basically says that the Citadel relay is the only way the Reapers can ever get back into the galaxy. Vigil says that the Prothean scientists found a way to "break the cycle forever" (those are his exact words) by tampering with the Keepers. He repeatedly says that the Reapers are "trapped in dark space." Shepard accepts this without question, asking how Sovereign got to the galaxy if the Reapers are "trapped in dark space." You get an Investigate option labeled, "How can they get back?", but if you select it, Shepard just talks with Vigil about Saren's plan to reopen the Citadel relay, without even bringing up the possibility that the Reapers might have any other way back.

In addition, if you take the Paragon persuade options in the final conversations with Saren, at one point Shepard will say, "Sovereign hasn't won yet. I can stop it from taking control of the station. Step aside, and the invasion will never happen."

Taken by itself, all of this strongly implies that if you stopped Sovereign from reopening the Citadel relay, you would defeat the Reapers once and for all by keeping them trapped in dark space forever.

Then, in the literal last minute of the game, all of this changes. Shepard suddenly says that the Reaper fleet is still coming, and he/she will have to find some way to stop them. Anderson/Udina agrees, and makes a short speech about how they will have to fight the Reapers. All of the variations of this scene make the same point: the Reapers are coming, and the galaxy will have to fight them.

In the context of the rest of the game, I don't see how this makes any sense. At this point, neither Shepard or the player has any reason to believe that the Reapers are coming to the galaxy, that they have any way of getting to the galaxy without the Citadel, or that they're still a threat after Sovereign has been destroyed. Based on the information available to the player, the Reapers have already been stopped, permanently. Yet Shepard, Anderson, and Udina believe otherwise, for no apparent reason.

[Hulluliini]

Well, I suppose they think it would be stupid not to assume that the reapers are going to keep trying since they are so much more advanced and the people of the galaxy barely know anything about how the citadel etc. actually work. Perhaps they mean to say "they will not stop trying and I fear that they will succeed eventually, we should not rest on or laurels". Just not written very well I guess..

[Teahouse Fox]

I'm actually in mid replay, and I am about to hit Virmire, so I can't speak to the Citadel/Ilos conversations relying on memory just yet.

I can say that somewhere in Feros or Novaria, BEFORE conversing with Sovereign, Benezia in the Rift Station or the Asari thrall on Feros, Shepard says during a dialog conversation that "the reapers ARE coming" with great conviction, but nothing more to go on than a memory blasted into her brain by a faulty beacon.

Almost as if it were out of sequence. I may have a better in-context answer for you after I reach the end again, but it's possible that there was just a continuity error somewhere, and a vital piece of dialog got dropped.

[PhantomSun]

INH56 wrote...

I've recently been looking over ME1's endgame sequence, and I've noticed something that really bugs me.

If you examine the talk with Vigil closely, he basically says that the Citadel relay is the only way the Reapers can ever get back into the galaxy. Vigil says that the Prothean scientists found a way to "break the cycle forever" (those are his exact words) by tampering with the Keepers. He repeatedly says that the Reapers are "trapped in dark space." Shepard accepts this without question, asking how Sovereign got to the galaxy if the Reapers are "trapped in dark space." You get an Investigate option labeled, "How can they get back?", but if you select it, Shepard just talks with Vigil about Saren's plan to reopen the Citadel relay, without even bringing up the possibility that the Reapers might have any other way back.

In addition, if you take the Paragon persuade options in the final conversations with Saren, at one point Shepard will say, "Sovereign hasn't won yet. I can stop it from taking control of the station. Step aside, and the invasion will never happen."

Taken by itself, all of this strongly implies that if you stopped Sovereign from reopening the Citadel relay, you would defeat the Reapers once and for all by keeping them trapped in dark space forever.

Then, in the literal last minute of the game, all of this changes. Shepard suddenly says that the Reaper fleet is still coming, and he/she will have to find some way to stop them. Anderson/Udina agrees, and makes a short speech about how they will have to fight the Reapers. All of the variations of this scene make the same point: the Reapers are coming, and the galaxy will have to fight them.

In the context of the rest of the game, I don't see how this makes any sense. At this point, neither Shepard or the player has any reason to believe that the Reapers are coming to the galaxy, that they have any way of getting to the galaxy without the Citadel, or that they're still a threat after Sovereign has been destroyed. Based on the information available to the player, the Reapers have already been stopped, permanently. Yet Shepard, Anderson, and Udina believe otherwise, for no apparent reason.

I haven't finished my replay so I don't remember all of this (I'm groundside on Noviera) and I've always chosen the renegade option during the final conversation with Saren so I haven't seen that.  

It's possible that comment was meant as some sort of symbolic hand-wavy passing of the torch implication of "hey your time has ended Saren, step aside and let me solve this problem."  

As for the Reapers returning, it's possible that it's something that Shepard "read into this" when Saren replies "We can't stop it!  Not forever!"  

Also, remember that Liara, when she explained her research, said that she noticed a pattern of "when a great civilization rises up, it is violently cast down" and that even the prothean's technology was based on those who came before.  This plus the implication and visions of there being more than one Reaper gives that sense that the Reaper may have been stopped now, but no one is sure of the amount of time between the cycles it took for the next civilization to be destroyed - could be a thousand, hundred of thousands, or even with the space of two years - but they will come.

Editted to add additional thoughts below:

And even if it wasn't the Reapers, Liara's words implies that there may be some sort of "clean up crew" when she said "It's like someone came along after the protheans were gone and cleanse the galaxy of clues."

As for Anderson/Udina agreeing, that's probably the military/poltics talking.  Just because another country has waved a white flag or has been defeated doesn't mean that there aren't more lurking waiting for them to let their guard down.  It's probably why they all "dismissed that claim" within the span of six months because they anthropomorphized the Reapers, thinking that if there were more out there, they would've already attacked by now. 

Modifié par PhantomSun, 09 avril 2013 - 02:09 .

[INH56]

Hulluliini wrote...

Well, I suppose they think it would be stupid not to assume that the reapers are going to keep trying since they are so much more advanced and the people of the galaxy barely know anything about how the citadel etc. actually work. Perhaps they mean to say "they will not stop trying and I fear that they will succeed eventually, we should not rest on or laurels". Just not written very well I guess..

Except that Shepard has no reason to think that the Reapers can keep trying. According to Vigil, they're trapped in dark space outside the galaxy, and at this point there's no evidence that they can interact with "galactic space" in any way (they could even still be in hibernation, for all we know at the time). At one point, Vigil even says that Sovereign was forced to work alone to figure out what had gone wrong, because its allies were "trapped in the void." And since Sovereign, Saren, and Benezia are dead, the only known agents of the Reapers left are the remnants of Saren's Geth army.

More to the point, there is zero uncertainty in what Shepard, Anderson, and Udina say. Shepard doesn't say, "the Reapers might try to find another way back," he/she says, "the Reaper fleet is still coming." Anderson and Udina don't say, "if the Reapers come," they say, "when the Reapers come." They act as if they know-not just suspect, know-that the Reapers will not only attempt to reach the galaxy, but succeed in doing so, and the galactic civilizations will have to fight them. Which is completely unsupported by the information that they and the player have been given at this point.

While we're on the subject, Shepard also says that the Reaper fleet has "hundreds, maybe thousands" of ships. Where, exactly, did Shepard learn how many Reapers there are? The only information that you're given on the number of Reapers is when Sovereign says, "Our numbers will darken the sky of every world," which is incredibly vague. And if Sovereign meant that they would literally darken the sky everywhere on every inhabited world simultaneously, there would have to be more than just thousands of them. So that part of the statement also makes no sense.

[Gallimatia]

Shepard is strange like that. Flip flopping between ideas and being dead certain about things for no apparant reason. Sometimes Shepard is wrong so it's not just a case of the protagonist being unnaturally all knowing.

After Eden Prime:
Anderson: A rogue Spectre is trouble. Saren's dangerous. And he hates humans.
Shepard: He didn't come to Eden Prime because he hates humans.  (Paraphrase: He wanted the beacon.)

Paragon/middle line when talking to the Council:
Shepard: Saren despises humanity. That's why he attacked Eden Prime!

With the renegade line being about as stupid (a death threat against a Spectre) is it any wonder the Council is hesitant when Shepard goes "Saren has a MacGuffin on Ilos! That's why he went there!"? It's almost as if Shepard knows he or she is a video game protagonist that through dumb luck will get pivotal stuff done, like being teleported back to the Citadel and making it back to the Council chamber after running off to Ilos.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 09 avril 2013 - 11:34 .

[capn233]

The game's plot isn't as airtight as some of the people who are diehard ME1 fans like to state.

But consider a few things. The Prothean "virus" that they put in the Citadel had already "prevented" the invasion when the signal was originally sent to activate it this cycle. This lead to the Reapers needing to find a way to reactivate the Citadel relay, which ended up being Saren and the Conduit.

It isn't a big leap for Shepard to assume that the Reapers in dark space remain a threat and that they might find another way into the galaxy (which from ME1 plot only you might assume some other agents trying to retake the Citadel again). There could have been another Reaper like Sovereign hiding in an uninhabited system for all he knows.

As for his dialogue with Saren, the point of Charm or Intimidate is of course to get the person to do what you want, it isn't necessarily to have a reasonable discussion about the facts. Shepard therefore might tell Saren that letting him access the terminal will prevent the Reaper invasions from ever happening simply as a tactic to get him to stand aside.

[avalanche16fd]

Right, i'm not so good putting my theories into words, especially in forums, so sorry if I sound like an ass.


Sovereign was a vanguard left behind in the last cycle (whether intentionally or not i can't remember).
The Citadel conduit could be considered as merely a 'shortcut' or 'backdoor' into the Galaxy, that is, it is the only practical means for the reapers to invade the Galaxy instantly.
I guess at this point the script was simply referring to a "if they arrive now, we die, if they arrive then, we might die" idea.
Simply preventing the Citadel from powering up stopped the Reapers THEN. Kind of like Terminator 3
-"But we stopped Skynet, we stopped Judgment Day":-
-"No, you only postponed it:-"

This didn't prevent the reapers from receiving Sovereign's / Keeper's signal that the Galaxy was ready for harvesting or that the Citadel was powering up.
So when Shepard stops the Reapers then they simply have to take the long way to the galaxy, by flying straight for it.
At this point, I'm not good with maths so i couldn't tell you the true time it would take for something on the edge of our galaxy to appear at earth, but travelling at the speed of light i know it's around 20,000 years. This is probably why the position of the reapers was never given, the script for ME had to have a playable time plot.
We also get a fairly good enough reason for their early arrival in ME2,
"The Reapers built the Citadel and Mass Effect Relays, whose to say they can't build a space station surrounded by black holes?"
Fair enough shepherd! Considering building around black holes is a hell of a bigger achivement than going 10,000 faster than the speed of light? I'm sure that the reapers can manage it.

Now, MY only question about how shepard knew the reapers were coming was,
'I just got a 50,000 year old vision, from an unstable artifact about a race we never encountered before and are fully artificial, containing no words or language that I , a soldier can decipher but that recording of a delirious Asari just said reapers...Well it must be true. Hey guys! Guess what?'

And everybody believed her just like that???
That's why i liked the turian councillor

[BJshepard]

I see where you are coming from.

Remember the mass relays allow one to travel to places hundreds of light years away in a matter of minutes. The reapers can still travel to he Milky Way Galaxy it would just take a long time at normal speeds to get to places which actually gives the cycle more time to prepare. (That is if they actually believed the Reapers exist in which case Shepard's cycle didn't believe they existed.)

So the reapers will return it is just a matter of when because who knows how far away the Reapers hibernate in dark space from the galaxy.

[INH56]

BJshepard wrote...

I see where you are coming from.

Remember the mass relays allow one to travel to places hundreds of light years away in a matter of minutes. The reapers can still travel to he Milky Way Galaxy it would just take a long time at normal speeds to get to places which actually gives the cycle more time to prepare. (That is if they actually believed the Reapers exist in which case Shepard's cycle didn't believe they existed.)

So the reapers will return it is just a matter of when because who knows how far away the Reapers hibernate in dark space from the galaxy.

Except that Vigil said that the Prothean scientists found a way to "break the cycle forever," and that because of their sabotage, the Reapers are "trapped in dark space." And Shepard told Saren, "step aside and the invasion will never happen."

All of the information presented to the player by the end of ME1 indicated that, without the Citadel Relay, the Reapers were trapped in dark space forever. At the very least, Shepard certainly seemed to believe that they were. Then at the end Shepard suddenly says that, no, the Reapers are coming to the galaxy anyway, without any attempt at an explanation.

Modifié par INH56, 25 avril 2013 - 01:12 .

[futs22]

It's been awhile since I played Mass Effect 1. I'm actually in the midst of an ME2 playthrough for the Nth time and I also just finished an ME3 playthrough last week.

I agree that it's quite puzzling that Shepard was so certain about the Reapers finding another way to return without the use of the Citadel. With the vast amounts of playthroughs I've done, for the life of me I can't recall any bit of dialogue that suggests Shepard came across info that confirms that the Citadel is just one of several options for the Reapers to use.

All this talk has also made me question Vigil's statement that the Reapers are trapped in dark space. Perhaps Vigil was mistaken since if you recall the ME2 DLC, The Arrival, the Reapers were going to make use of a very distant Mass Relay to start the invasion of the Galaxy.

I recall a line of dialogue in that DLC that stated the Reapers might take longer to get to Earth through that relay but eventually they would anyway and the cycle would continue. I suppose it is safe to assume that the use of the Citadel was the most optimal method for the Reapers to wipe out the Galaxy but other paths existed. So basically, Vigil was wrong in saying that the Reapers were trapped in Dark Space because the Reapers could just travel to some far flung mass relay and use it to eventually get Citadel space and wipe out the dominant species of the current cycle. It would take a bit longer but it would still yield the same result.

Anyway, going back to ME1 and Shepard's seemingly clairvoyant ability to see the Reapers still coming despite the loss of the Citadel method, maybe he/she is just paranoid like that. I'm actually starting to remember now some bits and pieces of my early playthroughs of ME1 when it first came out on the PC.

I clearly remember asking myself after finishing ME1 for the first time, "Is Shepard going to Dark Space in ME2?" I guess at that time, I too felt like the Reapers were completely shut out of making their way to the galaxy and Citadel space. Perhaps the more logical part of my also brain kicked in and told me that the writers made Shepard so certain that the Reapers were far from defeated because that was their way of assuring us of a sequel.

Well, seeing as there is no official explanation from the writers, I'll just use my imagination to patch the holes in the story. In "my version" of the Mass Effect story, I'll write it down as Vigil being incorrect and Shepard being paranoid and actually being correct that the Reapers would try something like use indoctrinated Protheans to construct a human looking Reaper beyond the Omega 4 relay or just fly through a far flung Mass Relay and eventually get to Earth in ME3.