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[Argolas]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I only saved Morinth once and I never saw her say or do anything that doesn't have anything to do with sating her urges.

Ah but that's where a little thing called "character development" would come in...

Again, the root of the problem is she never had a chance because there was no reason to save her. If you could've somehow stalled Samara till after the mission and had them both, maybe then Morinth would've had a chance to prove useful. Or even grow a little in the face of doom, one way or another.

Maybe there was more potential in the character. If so, it was certainly wasted, I agree on that.

[KainD]

Forst1999 wrote...

If have trouble seeing a Shepard that killed a squadmate to get someone "more useful" letting Morinth go.

Let her go? Lol, you don't have a choice. You are not going to take on a Samara caliber biotic alone weaponless and armorless. Morinth could  just brake Shepards spine and be on her way if she wanted to. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 04:13 .

[KainD]

CrutchCricket wrote...

No, that is tangential. But for the record:

"Addicted to the process of melding, Morinth chose to run,"- ME Wiki

She didn't run to make some statement or because she wanted freedom. She ran because she gave into her addiction, and continued to give into it for 400 years at the expense of countless innocents.

Morinth is no champion of the poor ardat-yakshi. She's a serial killer and rapist, pure and simple. And don't just cite "harsh childhood" and call it a day. Jack had it worse. She's done some **** as well but out of necessity, not out of perversion. And when Jack was offered a better way she took it. You can argue Morinth's path is not as well developed but I see no hint of Morinth searching for a better way, even if you save her. That's because they didn't do the same level of development for her character, but that's meta-thinking. In universe, Morinth has no excuse.

Ardat-Yakshi can't help being what they are. But they can choose not to give in to their darker sides. They can choose this via the monestary. If Morinth had ran and made even a token attempt at going clean in the outside world, you may have a case. But as it stands she's done nothing but revel in her lethal debauchery for four centuries and in the absense of any character development towards redemption she deserves to die.

Not sure how one can be addicted at the age of 40 when discovered to be AY, codex sometimes says what the person who wrote the codex thinks ( not bioware writters, ingame characters, sources of datapads. )

But my point remains - if Morinth was not forced to live in seclusion, I would kill her without a second though for what she was doing, but as it stands, she was forced to live in seclusion, and that makes Samara and asari government in the wrong, they just tight my hands, they started it. 

I don't believe that Morinth is a very bad serial killer that prays on innocents, that is however such a long disscussion, we once had a 100+ pages thread about it full of arguments and opinions. But then again as I said, she is "justified" and does not deserve to die. She is not supposed to seek redemption or a better way, she wasn't given a reason to. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 04:15 .

[Forst1999]

KainD wrote...


Let her go? Lol, you don't have a choice. You are not going to take on a Samara caliber biotic alone weaponless and armorless. Morinth just brake Shepards spine and be on her way if she wanted to. 

There are weapons in the appartment, and Shepard likely wouldn't even need one. Heavy biotic struggles like the one Morinth just endured do take their toll (limitless biotic usuage is gameplay-only) and Shepard can handle himself well without a weapon (being a biotic herself/deadly with an omnitool/strong enough to beat krogan to a pulp).
Not wishing to discuss the chances of a battle here, such discussions are quite fruitless most of the time, but from Morinth's point of view, Shepard is frightening. He restisted her. Morinth was utterly shocked by this, I doubt she would take her chances.
They made a deal, and Morinth doesn't wiggle out of it because going against Shepard seems unwise. Maybe there was a bit of gratitude, but I don't think she saw the chance to leave.

[KainD]

Forst1999 wrote...

There are weapons in the appartment, and Shepard likely wouldn't even need one. Heavy biotic struggles like the one Morinth just endured do take their toll (limitless biotic usuage is gameplay-only) and Shepard can handle himself well without a weapon (being a biotic herself/deadly with an omnitool/strong enough to beat krogan to a pulp).
Not wishing to discuss the chances of a battle here, such discussions are quite fruitless most of the time, but from Morinth's point of view, Shepard is frightening. He restisted her. Morinth was utterly shocked by this, I doubt she would take her chances.
They made a deal, and Morinth doesn't wiggle out of it because going against Shepard seems unwise. Maybe there was a bit of gratitude, but I don't think she saw the chance to leave.

Get off your high horse, Shepard is not superman, and don't try to justify it. Morinth held a biotic buble through out the collector ship, then smashed a whole bunch of swarmers and collectors, then got up and helped me fight the human reaper. No a single biotic armwrestle doesn't render her helpless and scarred. 
Every thread about biotic power level hold Samara above Shepard, and most everyone agrees that she would defeat Shepard in one on one combat, Morinth is her equal. 

Morinth even ASKS herself politely: "Let me join you." 
And shepard is all: "oh I don't know... the crew might notice and stuff.." 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 04:26 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't believe that Morinth is a very bad serial killer that prays on innocents, that is however such a long disscussion, we once had a 100+ pages thread about it full of arguments and opinions. But then again as I said, she is "justified" and does not deserve to die.

Some innocents, some not quite, but either way, none actually deserve to die. I don't see Morinth deserving to either, but as it stands, it doesn't seem we get much of a reason to kill Samara to keep her alive. Now, if there was a way of keeping them both alive and only having Morinth on my squad, it might be different.

Not sure how one can be addicted at the age of 40 when discovered to be
AY, codex sometimes says what the person who wrote the codex thinks (
not bioware writters, ingame characters, sources of datapads. )

Well, she may have been sexually active at that age. It doesn't seem out of character, given her personality.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 avril 2013 - 04:29 .

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see Morinth deserving to either, but as it stands, it doesn't seem we get much of a reason to kill Samara to keep her alive.

I do. I don't like Samara as a person, I don't like what she stands for, suicide mission was the only thing that would make me ever bring such a person on my ship, but Morinth fixed that. 

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see Morinth deserving to either, but as it stands, it doesn't seem we get much of a reason to kill Samara to keep her alive.

I do. I don't like Samara as a person, I don't like what she stands for, suicide mission was the only thing that would make me ever bring such a person on my ship, but Morinth fixed that. 

Maybe, but we've got people like Jack, Grunt and Zaeed on the ship too; we're not exactly turning down hardened killers, and Samara does so for a cause, as opposed to addiction. I suppose we do get a decent view on Morinth's combat prowess, as she matches Samara, but I'd really rather not see, say, Kelly turn up with her brain fried.

[David7204]

If I brought back one ME 2 squadmate, I think I would pick Samara.

[ATiBotka]

MetioricTest wrote...

What would you have done during this story?

I'd go after the Kingslayer.

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe, but we've got people like Jack, Grunt and Zaeed on the ship too; we're not exactly turning down hardened killers, and Samara does so for a cause, as opposed to addiction. I suppose we do get a decent view on Morinth's combat prowess, as she matches Samara, but I'd really rather not see, say, Kelly turn up with her brain fried.

I brought the point right up there. When you help Morinth kill Samara you are left completely helpless at her mercy. Shepard doesn't have weapons or armor, if Shepard is a biotic still doesn't match a matriarch level Justicar, Morinth could easily smash Shepard with her biotics OR be a little grateful but not so grateful as to risk her life on a suicide mission, and just leave the room and Shepard would have one less squadmate. 
Instead she politely asks to join the crew. I trusted her completely, and she did a great job and performed exceptional in her task on the collector base. 

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

If I brought back one ME 2 squadmate, I think I would pick Samara.

Doesn't her "I would commit suicide in front of my last surviving daughter rather than break my code" attitude bother you?

That scene ruined the entire character for me. Chasing down and killing Morinth was understandable. Being rather cold to Falere was understandable. But that stunt she pulls off in the end? 

[Skullheart]

Wasted use for Morinth:

She could have been there in the monastery, she saves both sisters but she dies sacrificer her life to do it (she the one detonating the explosives). Redemption trhough death.

If you failed Samara's LM or never did it, then all goes like me3.

[Wulfram]

Argolas wrote...

Doesn't her "I would commit suicide in front of my last surviving daughter rather than break my code" attitude bother you?

That scene ruined the entire character for me. Chasing down and killing Morinth was understandable. Being rather cold to Falere was understandable. But that stunt she pulls off in the end? 

Going by the freaky eye thing when she swears to Shepard I'm not sure she's actually capable of breaking her code.

[robertthebard]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I only saved Morinth once and I never saw her say or do anything that doesn't have anything to do with sating her urges.

Ah but that's where a little thing called "character development" would come in...

Again, the root of the problem is she never had a chance because there was no reason to save her. If you could've somehow stalled Samara till after the mission and had them both, maybe then Morinth would've had a chance to prove useful. Or even grow a little in the face of doom, one way or another.

So over the 400 years that Samara chased her, she never found the time to develop past sociopathic killer?  What's going to change over the course of a few weeks?  It's not like somebody wouldn't take up the chase sooner or later, and while that somebody may or may not be a Justicar, that wouldn't mean they couldn't get close to her.  She was what the Asari feared one with her condition would be, an effective killer.  She can even kill Shepard...On the Normandy...So yeah, she's really looking for a chance to be other than what she is.

[Tugga_gott]

Skullheart wrote...

Wasted use for Morinth:

She could have been there in the monastery, she saves both sisters but she dies sacrificer her life to do it (she the one detonating the explosives). Redemption trhough death.

If you failed Samara's LM or never did it, then all goes like me3.

This!

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe, but we've got people like Jack, Grunt and Zaeed on the ship too; we're not exactly turning down hardened killers, and Samara does so for a cause, as opposed to addiction. I suppose we do get a decent view on Morinth's combat prowess, as she matches Samara, but I'd really rather not see, say, Kelly turn up with her brain fried.

I brought the point right up there. When you help Morinth kill Samara you are left completely helpless at her mercy. Shepard doesn't have weapons or armor, if Shepard is a biotic still doesn't match a matriarch level Justicar, Morinth could easily smash Shepard with her biotics OR be a little grateful but not so grateful as to risk her life on a suicide mission, and just leave the room and Shepard would have one less squadmate. 
Instead she politely asks to join the crew. I trusted her completely, and she did a great job and performed exceptional in her task on the collector base. 

Morinth's hard to peg, but the fact that she actually does agree to a suicide mission instead of retreating does seem to speak of something beyond her own addiction. It's possible that she just wanted to wear down Shepard's defenses, but that's a hell of a lot of risk for a reward of only one person...

My trouble is that I just didn't see a reason to kill Samara. It's not an issue with saving Morinth, it's one of killing Samara.

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...
Morinth's hard to peg, but the fact that she actually does agree to a suicide mission instead of retreating does seem to speak of something beyond her own addiction. It's possible that she just wanted to wear down Shepard's defenses, but that's a hell of a lot of risk for a reward of only one person...

Yes that reasoning from some people seems ridicilous to me, let's risk life on a suicide mission after trying to survive for 400 years for a chance to MAYBE seduce Shepard and MAYBE get a chance to get off the Normandy in one peace, past the AI defenses and the crew. Seems legit. Honestly if she wanted Shepard that bad, could have just put Shepard back in the couch in her appartment, and broken a leg or two, until Shepard can't think straight anymore and then engage in midnrape. 

Xilizhra wrote...
My trouble is that I just didn't see a reason to kill Samara. It's not an issue with saving Morinth, it's one of killing Samara.

There are these people that fail the loyalty mission delibiretely have both survive, but sadly the choice carries no weight anyway. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 06:19 .

[CrutchCricket]

KainD wrote...
But my point remains - if Morinth was not forced to live in seclusion, I would kill her without a second though for what she was doing, but as it stands, she was forced to live in seclusion, and that makes Samara and asari government in the wrong, they just tight my hands, they started it.

Your point is wrong. Seclusion-->serial killing is not a logical causitive step. How do you not understand this?

I don't believe that Morinth is a very bad serial killer that prays on innocents, that is however such a long disscussion, we once had a 100+ pages thread about it full of arguments and opinions. But then again as I said, she is "justified" and does not deserve to die. She is not supposed to seek redemption or a better way, she wasn't given a reason to. 

Not wanting to live at a, yes secluded, but otherwise posh resort where all your basic needs are taken care of is justification for a 400 year old killing spree? You're ****ing with me, right?

And can we lay off treating the monestary like ****ing Alcatraz? Oh, look at the big bad asari government putting the poor ardat-yakshi up in posh digs where they're guaranteed meals, a roof over their heads and productive lives, never having to deal with poverty or crime, those monsters. They're totally suffocating Rila and Falere with everyday comforts while other asari their age are shaking their asses and getting taken advantage of in seedy bars on Omega or the Citadel, getting hooked on red sand or gunned down in Eclipse gangfights. They don't deserve to be deprived of the opportunity to be victimized by scum or become scum themselves so let's start ****ing total strangers to death in retaliation! Is that what you're saying?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 avril 2013 - 06:58 .

[CrutchCricket]

robertthebard wrote...
So over the 400 years that Samara chased her, she never found the time to develop past sociopathic killer?  What's going to change over the course of a few weeks?  It's not like somebody wouldn't take up the chase sooner or later, and while that somebody may or may not be a Justicar, that wouldn't mean they couldn't get close to her.  She was what the Asari feared one with her condition would be, an effective killer.  She can even kill Shepard...On the Normandy...So yeah, she's really looking for a chance to be other than what she is.

You can almost convince Samara, a thousand year old justicar much more firmly set in her ways to bang you... nothing's impossible.

Even a hint of Morinth considering change might've been something.

Besides the time that passes is irrelevant. Sometimes you just need to be shown a different path. I bet you no one's tried to do that in 400 years...

[CrutchCricket]

Argolas wrote...
Doesn't her "I would commit suicide in front of my last surviving daughter rather than break my code" attitude bother you?

That scene ruined the entire character for me. Chasing down and killing Morinth was understandable. Being rather cold to Falere was understandable. But that stunt she pulls off in the end? 

That was perfectly in character. One does not simply break the Justicar Code

insert Boromirmeme.jpg

[KainD]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Not wanting to live at a, yes secluded, but otherwise posh resort where all your basic needs are taken care of is justification for a 400 year old killing spree? You're ****ing with me, right?

And can we lay off treating the monestary like ****ing Alcatraz? Oh, look at the big bad asari government putting the poor ardat-yakshi up in posh digs where they're guaranteed meals, a roof over their heads and productive lives, never having to deal with poverty or crime, those monsters. They're totally suffocating Rila and Falere with everyday comforts while other asari their age are shaking their asses and getting taken advantage of in seedy bars on Omega or the Citadel, getting hooked on red sand or gunned down in Eclipse gangfights. They don't deserve to be deprived of the opportunity to be victimized by scum or become scum themselves so let's start ****ing total strangers to death in retaliation! Is that what you're saying?

Everyone is different. Freedom was very important to Morinth, more so than life, hence why she risked it. She would rather die than live in seclusion. It doesn't matter if I or you consider seclusion a fine fate, what matters is what Morinth thinks of it. Rila and Falere were fine with it but from Morinth's perspective she was faced with a choice of death and something worse than death. 

When a person is treated like that by her Mother and the government, she has no reason to really care about other people, it is logical and completly understandable. That + her life as a teen on the run in the dark corners of the galaxy. 

[Argolas]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Argolas wrote...
Doesn't her "I would commit suicide in front of my last surviving daughter rather than break my code" attitude bother you?

That scene ruined the entire character for me. Chasing down and killing Morinth was understandable. Being rather cold to Falere was understandable. But that stunt she pulls off in the end? 

That was perfectly in character. One does not simply break the Justicar Code

insert Boromirmeme.jpg

I always figured her family would be more important to her. Doing that to your already traumatized daughter...

Oh well. If it was in character, fine, but it made Samara completely unlikeable to me. I am really glad the game let us prevent that. It's one of those actions I always do. I never saw that scene play out otherwise and I never will.

[KainD]

J. Reezy wrote...

You people are seriously resurrecting this argument with "D.Kain"? Didn't this go on for 100+ pages at one point?

Yes it did, and I've warned them.