123 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

There are these people that fail the loyalty mission delibiretely have both survive, but sadly the choice carries no weight anyway.

Well, the only way I'd want Morinth to live is under my own watch. It's not worth compromising Samara's own skill and endangering others to deliberately fail that.

When a person is treated like that by her Mother and the government, she has no reason to really care about other people, it is logical and completly understandable. That + her life as a teen on the run in the dark corners of the galaxy.

Possibly, but how would you propose fixing that?

[New Display Name]

Well, in the event that I could not control my compulsion to kill others, I'd rather die than continue existing.

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly, but how would you propose fixing that?

Don't put AY into seclusion until they mindrape someone, make other people know who they are and treat them with respect. 

[KainD]

HJF4 wrote...

Well, in the event that I could not control my compulsion to kill others, I'd rather die than continue existing.

That is not the case with Morinth. 

[CrutchCricket]

KainD wrote...
Everyone is different. Freedom was very important to Morinth, more so than life, hence why she risked it. She would rather die than live in seclusion. It doesn't matter if I or you consider seclusion a fine fate, what matters is what Morinth thinks of it. Rila and Falere were fine with it but from Morinth's perspective she was faced with a choice of death and something worse than death. 

When a person is treated like that by her Mother and the government, she has no reason to really care about other people, it is logical and completly understandable. That + her life as a teen on the run in the dark corners of the galaxy. 

None of this leads to serial killing. At all. Ever. End of discussion. I don't care what Morinth wanted or cared about before. Her choice to run away isn't the issue. It's what she chose to do with her newfound freedom that is inexcusable.

[Argolas]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly, but how would you propose fixing that?

Don't put AY into seclusion until they mindrape someone, make other people know who they are and treat them with respect. 

Reminds me of the the "mages vs. templars" theme. Innocent, but dangerous, huh?

We would need to know how strong the urge to kill in an AY actually is. Interesting: Falere seems to be in a quite public place with Samara in the EC slide. Is she only on temporary leave, or was she actually granted freedom?

[CrutchCricket]

Argolas wrote...

I always figured her family would be more important to her. Doing that to your already traumatized daughter...

Oh well. If it was in character, fine, but it made Samara completely unlikeable to me. I am really glad the game let us prevent that. It's one of those actions I always do. I never saw that scene play out otherwise and I never will.

You meet her hunting her own daughter with the intent to kill her. From that start it should be obvious that this is not the case.

But in a way family does become more important. Because she can't kill her last daughter. So actually, her action should push her closer to your preferences, not farther.

[Argolas]

CrutchCricket wrote...

KainD wrote...
Everyone is different. Freedom was very important to Morinth, more so than life, hence why she risked it. She would rather die than live in seclusion. It doesn't matter if I or you consider seclusion a fine fate, what matters is what Morinth thinks of it. Rila and Falere were fine with it but from Morinth's perspective she was faced with a choice of death and something worse than death. 

When a person is treated like that by her Mother and the government, she has no reason to really care about other people, it is logical and completly understandable. That + her life as a teen on the run in the dark corners of the galaxy. 

None of this leads to serial killing. At all. Ever. End of discussion. I don't care what Morinth wanted or cared about before. Her choice to run away isn't the issue. It's what she chose to do with her newfound freedom that is inexcusable.

Absolutely. Samara once tells a story that Morinth has made an entire village worship her and bring her young Asari as sacrifices. When Samara came, Morinth threw everyone on the village at her mother in order to escape. That is a horrible crime that you can't even justify with an uncontrollable urge to kill.

[KainD]

CrutchCricket wrote...

None of this leads to serial killing. At all. Ever. End of discussion. I don't care what Morinth wanted or cared about before. Her choice to run away isn't the issue. It's what she chose to do with her newfound freedom that is inexcusable.

Morinth gets high from killing people. Why would she deny herself that pleassure? 

[KainD]

Argolas wrote...

Reminds me of the the "mages vs. templars" theme. Innocent, but dangerous, huh?

We would need to know how strong the urge to kill in an AY actually is. Interesting: Falere seems to be in a quite public place with Samara in the EC slide. Is she only on temporary leave, or was she actually granted freedom?

Hence I am all for mage freedom in dragon age as well. Totally parallel situations. 

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly, but how would you propose fixing that?

Don't put AY into seclusion until they mindrape someone, make other people know who they are and treat them with respect. 

I more meant, how would you fix Morinth?

[Argolas]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I always figured her family would be more important to her. Doing that to your already traumatized daughter...

Oh well. If it was in character, fine, but it made Samara completely unlikeable to me. I am really glad the game let us prevent that. It's one of those actions I always do. I never saw that scene play out otherwise and I never will.

You meet her hunting her own daughter with the intent to kill her. From that start it should be obvious that this is not the case.

But in a way family does become more important. Because she can't kill her last daughter. So actually, her action should push her closer to your preferences, not farther.

Hunting down Morinth was understandable. Killing Falere would be outright murder of her innocent daughter. Escaping the conflict through suicide is better than that, but not much considering the situation Falere found herself in. She just lost her sister Rila, and now Samara would have her watch her mother killing herself because of her.

Samara's desperate "I won't kill my last daughter!" when Shepard stops did make it a bit better though, that is true. Maybe if she admitted that it was a horrible move after she calmed down later, but no... I lost my respect for Samara in that scene and so I just don't like the character anymore. If others do, fine.

[Display Name Owner]

Bang people and kill them I guess?

[CrutchCricket]

KainD wrote...

Morinth gets high from killing people. Why would she deny herself that pleassure? 

I see. So by you logic we should totally let psycopaths like Manson go, right? And hey let's send him by your house, because why should we deny him his pleasures?

Troll confirmed. Disengaging...

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

I more meant, how would you fix Morinth?

You don't need to fix her, she's fine. She cares for her siblings, that she grew up with. She is not crazy, she is logical and rational. She can communicate with other people well, be grateful and is capable of making bonds. I think if she was completely free from being prosecuted by the government and Justicars and would be close to people that aren't her popets like Shepard, and that know who she is and would except her the way she is, then I think she would be able to live with them and  keep herself in check for these people. She did go some centuries without killing for Samara to drop her trail, she is under control. 

[KainD]

CrutchCricket wrote...

KainD wrote...

Morinth gets high from killing people. Why would she deny herself that pleassure? 

I see. So by you logic we should totally let psycopaths like Manson go, right? And hey let's send him by your house, because why should we deny him his pleasures?

Troll confirmed. Disengaging...

*Facepalm*, my though just went right over your head. Read one more time what I was saying and think again what I am talking about, or disengage ahead. 

[Argolas]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I more meant, how would you fix Morinth?

You don't need to fix her, she's fine. She cares for her siblings, that she grew up with. She is not crazy, she is logical and rational. She can communicate with other people well, be grateful and is capable of making bonds. I think if she was completely free from being prosecuted by the government and Justicars and would be close to people that aren't her popets like Shepard, and that know who she is and would except her the way she is, then I think she would be able to live with them and  keep herself in check for these people. She did go some centuries without killing for Samara to drop her trail, she is under control. 

Or she may as well end up in a remote village, let the people worship her and demand innocent young Asari as sacrifices. Because, you know, that's what she did.

[CrutchCricket]

Argolas wrote...
Hunting down Morinth was understandable. Killing Falere would be outright murder of her innocent daughter. Escaping the conflict through suicide is better than that, but not much considering the situation Falere found herself in. She just lost her sister Rila, and now Samara would have her watch her mother killing herself because of her.

Samara's desperate "I won't kill my last daughter!" when Shepard stops did make it a bit better though, that is true. Maybe if she admitted that it was a horrible move after she calmed down later, but no... I lost my respect for Samara in that scene and so I just don't like the character anymore. If others do, fine.

It was the only way according to the Code. Which means you're only really begrudging the "doing it in front of Falere" part which is... not as much an issue considering the alternative.

It wasn't a horrible move. It was necessary. Samara acts according to certain rules we may not understand or follow, but those rules are a part of what she is. If you liked her before, there is no reason you should dislike her now, not for that.

[KainD]

Argolas wrote...

Or she may as well end up in a remote village, let the people worship her and demand innocent young Asari as sacrifices. Because, you know, that's what she did.

She was never given a reason to do otherwise, that's what I was talking about. 

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I more meant, how would you fix Morinth?

You don't need to fix her, she's fine. She cares for her siblings, that she grew up with. She is not crazy, she is logical and rational. She can communicate with other people well, be grateful and is capable of making bonds. I think if she was completely free from being prosecuted by the government and Justicars and would be close to people that aren't her popets like Shepard, and that know who she is and would except her the way she is, then I think she would be able to live with them and  keep herself in check for these people. She did go some centuries without killing for Samara to drop her trail, she is under control. 

Why would she try to kill Shepard again after the Collector base?

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would she try to kill Shepard again after the Collector base?

She didn't try to KILL Shepard, never wanted to hurt him/her. She really believed that there was a chance that someone might survive, someone like Shepard who is strong in mind and body. She doesn't believe it completely herself but she wants to, she warns Shepard of the danger and asks multiple times if Shepard is REALLY up for it. 
She takes a gamble with Shepard for her own life and safety again for that chance. She doesn't even ask Shepard right before the suicide mission, the one mission that she knows there is a huge chance she might not survive, but she knows how important it is to Shepard and so she doesn't even talk about it. She doesn't get really upset if you don't accept, and I think that deep down she is reliaved in a way too. 

But then again all the interactions with her were soo underdeveloped, just bah.. that's what I read anyways. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 07:56 .

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would she try to kill Shepard again after the Collector base?

She didn't try to KILL Shepard, never wanted to hurt him/her. She really believed that there was a chance that someone might survive, someone like Shepard who is strong in mind and body. She doesn't believe it completely herself but she wants to, she warns Shepard of the danger and asks multiple times if Shepard is REALLY up for it. 
She takes a gamble with Shepard for her own life and safety again for that chance. She doesn't even ask Shepard right before the suicide mission, the one mission that she knows there is a huge chance she might not survive, but she knows how important it is to Shepard and so she doesn't even talk about it. She doesn't get really upset if you don't accept, and I think that deep down she is reliaved in a way too. 

But then again all the interactions with her were soo underdeveloped, just bah.. that's what I read anyways. 

I've had that as a hypothesis. But she has a somewhat evil grin going into it, that I observed from the scene, at least. It's a more favorable and perhaps deeper interpretation of it, though.

Though... if I'm willing to kill squadmates just because someone better comes along, what does that make me?

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've had that as a hypothesis. But she has a somewhat evil grin going into it, that I observed from the scene, at least. It's a more favorable and perhaps deeper interpretation of it, though.

Though... if I'm willing to kill squadmates just because someone better comes along, what does that make me?

I watched that scene so many times.. she seems very dirty at first but that is before the sex scene, and it makes sense, and she is full of passion, finally get's what her body wanted so much. But then look at how careful and soft she is, look at her wide exited eyes when it's over. That scene from the back when her hand slowly drops kinda seems a sad one, I don't think she smiles anymore when the her back is shown. 

I don't know what it makes you if you consider Samara a good person and a squadmate. Samara to me was a person that brakes MY morals, a person that I hated, and would never want to deal with, everything I did with her was for the mission, but then she just went overboard, and I couldn't let her kill Morinth after everything I've heard and seen. Samara just had to go, she didn't deserve to live in my eyes. That choice was not a progmatic one. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 avril 2013 - 08:10 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't know what it makes you if you consider Samara a good person and a squadmate. Samara to me was a person that brakes MY morals, a person that I hated, and would never want to deal with, everything I did with her was for the mission, but then she just went overboard, and I couldn't let her kill Morinth after everything I've heard and seen. Samara just had to go, she didn't deserve to live in my eyes. That choice was not a progmatic one.

Why do you hate Samara in particular so much?

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you hate Samara in particular so much?

Because life is not black and white, because you can't have a set code for every situation. Because she terminates things instead of trying to fix things. Because she denies herself things she loves and denies bonds, and you can't be an understanding and rational individual when you are all alone. Because she think she works for the greater good even though she regrets so much and hates herself for so many actions that weight down her soul, and that is absurd. And because at the end of the day she actually thinks that her code is the only right way, and she has the nerve to think that she has the authority over other peoples lives and their actions, even aliens, ones that are out of asari space, that have different ways of life and traditions / morals.