211 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Chiramu wrote...

There should be the option to play an Atheist Inquisitor and facepalm every time someone rants on about the Maker.

That would be great. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

If it will satisfy them give them one line or two to shout their irreligiousness ... or join the Qun., but don't waste much resources on this.

By believing in pessimistic Platonism everything will be solved. In DA world things are more complex, but still.

[Twisted Path]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So you want to:

1) Discover that the Maker is real
2) Choose to disbelieve in the Maker

Uh, I can disbelieve in the sun, but the sun isn't going away. ~_^

Well, if you discover the Maker and then find out that he's just a man behind a curtain that would make sense. And of course he wouldn't live up to his name. It's a big theme in some fantasy settings for there to be people who know that the "gods" exist but to just not view them as gods, since they are essentially super-powerful wizards.

On the other hand I'm a big fan of the idea of a creator deity actually existing but being killed/deposed at some point, perhaps in prehistory, which may be the real backstory in the Dragon Age setting. You see that idea sometimes in real-world mythology, and it's implied or outright stated to be the setup in a few of Clive Barker's better fantasy novels (Imajica and The Great and Secret Show books.)

Edit: It seemed really obvious why city elves would want to join the Qun to me. They really really hate humans and here's this outside group that comes in and brushes aside the evil human slaver empire like it ain't no thing. Sign me up! Let's be a strong bodily unit or whatever and bust some evil humans.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 08 avril 2013 - 03:48 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

"Maker"-is non-existen(just crazy lying fairy tale of blood mage Andraste for stupid barbarians)

or maybe non-responsive JUST some minor spirit/demon of fate(i think some Desire demon), which Andraste seen only in a dreams(in fade becase she's mage)

do not forget that Andraste is mage, and that she born after First Blight(200 years of Blight), lived a very hard and poor life before she saw Maker in her dreams

this "Maker" is never, and can be actually Maker-god and creator of thedas and ruler of fade...he and Orlais Chantry is just a big lie as Santa Claus lives at the North Pole

and we know that there were in fact Ancient Elven Gods, and Old Gods..and Dwarven Stone(but as i know it is not a god but some kind of dwarven heaven)....they are worshiped over the millennia before Fall of Encient Tevinter Empire and 200 year of First Blight

and before some very poor ferelden barbarian female human mage Andraste.....who said that she had seen the Maker(and no one has ever seen or heard him, except only Andraste) and she is he's wife:huh: no seriously it even sounds stupid:D

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 08 avril 2013 - 07:39 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Andraste was not mage. Don't talk nonsense.

And remember the gauntlet, where the spirit knows everything about everyone. Even a mage, no matter how powerful wouldn't be able to know that. Also her ashes cure illness, so obviously she is saint or some thing whatever, but definitely not a mage - that quest totally buried any chance of some ironic outcome for it.

Also, Chantry was not formed by Andraste, it was formed by Emperor Drakon, so she never made any cult or anything, all she was to do was to cast down Tevinter Imperium, and defeat rule of magic, which she almost did. The Inquisition was formed AFTER her, and it had nothing to do with Chantry again. Inquisition was only interested in hunting down mages and continuing Adraste work. So there you have answer to "You will not have to join or server Chantry, which you got from Gaider."

So as Inquisitor you don't have to believe in Maker or server Chantry, especially not after what happen in Asunder book, where Chantry betrayed the Seekers of Truth (which will probably transform back into Inquisition).

[Teddie Sage]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Andraste was not mage. Don't talk nonsense.

Nothing has been confirmed, if I recall correctly.

[Hazegurl]

Yes, I'm sick of the maker and would love to tell the characters that. I tried avoiding dialouge options that made Hawke into a believer until he said some preset dialogue stuff about the maker.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Andraste was not mage. Don't talk nonsense.

And remember the gauntlet, where the spirit knows everything about everyone. Even a mage, no matter how powerful wouldn't be able to know that. Also her ashes cure illness, so obviously she is saint or some thing whatever, but definitely not a mage - that quest totally buried any chance of some ironic outcome for it.

Also, Chantry was not formed by Andraste, it was formed by Emperor Drakon, so she never made any cult or anything, all she was to do was to cast down Tevinter Imperium, and defeat rule of magic, which she almost did. The Inquisition was formed AFTER her, and it had nothing to do with Chantry again. Inquisition was only interested in hunting down mages and continuing Adraste work. So there you have answer to "You will not have to join or server Chantry, which you got from Gaider."

So as Inquisitor you don't have to believe in Maker or server Chantry, especially not after what happen in Asunder book, where Chantry betrayed the Seekers of Truth (which will probably transform back into Inquisition).

1)so said me

a)how Andrate would technically have any connections(but she always have it in her dreams) wirh spirit/deamon of fade?...only if she would be a mage, other have not make any sense

b)how some poor vilige girl can become a SINGLE WIFE(who have not even have childrens and any love/sex relationship with him and she always claim herself as Maker wife) of Maferat, chief of big barbarian clan and who have allways more influance as him?....blood magic seduction(like we see in DA 2 brothel)

c)why Maferat really betrays and give her to Magisters at the final stage against Tevinter?...blood magic seduction weakened (after a long time) and he was freed from its control and realized that he was by her control

d)why Archont personally kills her with sword then she burn on fire?....she's been possesed and try to summons demons.

2)all things what we seen in Andrastes Tome(one places of Thedas with wery close connection to Fade and deamons) was created by magic.

..especially Old Guardian(only blood magic or demon possestion can allows him to live soo long and never be deafeted by many warriors)....and deamons things with knowing memories of everyone what we already saw in our Fade Journeys

....her Ashes can heal magical poisoning and ilness only becase she was a blood mage and Ashes they were full of lyrium....all of this is just magic, and no more.....we know that mages or mixtures(what containse Lyrium) can heal people without problem

3)Andraste make her big cult of Maker And His Wife to claim war to weakened Tevinter(and rule Thedas herself "with Maker", do not be naive) after 200 years of First Blight..

.....Dracon make his big cult and Chantry of Andraste to claim war to Tevinter and conquer Thedas after Second Blight

Andraste work was conquer Thedas by her own barbarians cult and rule them all "by Maker will"

3)I think is kind of stupid to belive....in non-existent  Andraste "Maker" aka "Cretor of Thedas and Ruler Of Fade" who talks only with her in only her dreams:D

F*ck these Orlais Andrastian Сhantry and Qun fanatics,  I'd rather worship to Elven Gods or Old Gods:D....Though they are real and give some real powers

 

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 08 avril 2013 - 10:26 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

There weren't a lot of atheists in medieval Europe. Thedas is based on medieval Europe. Atheism is a very modern concept.

Lol Atheism is really not a modern concept. That notion is ridiculous.


Anyway I approve of the abilitie to express our religious faith or lack of in DA3. I like to roleplay as many different characters- some are religious, some hate the whole concept, while others don't care.

[Chchchchicken]

Hazegurl wrote...

Yes, I'm sick of the maker and would love to tell the characters that. I tried avoiding dialouge options that made Hawke into a believer until he said some preset dialogue stuff about the maker.

I don't know if this will help you with that, but I always considered Hawke's outbursts to be more reflective of the language that people commonly use in Thedas.

I'm an athiest personally and I'm always saying things like "Oh my God!" and "Jesus Christ!" as exclamations. It's not something I think about, it's just how people around me speak so I internalized it.

When sarcastic Hawke spoke to Varric about the Ogre he killed in the prologue his/her dialogue was something like, "Maker! What do they feed those things?!" I probably would've said the same thing (except: Jesus!). It's not necessarily belief, it's just cultural assimilation.

I know it's not ideal for roleplaying purposes, but it might help if it comes up again?  I liked it personally because I thought it made Hawke feel like they were apart of the world of Thedas, but I played sarcastic Hawke so it might've fit better with that personality type than the others. So....your mileage may vary.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

The same way like Jesus did, the same way like Johan of Arc did.. the same way can Andraste.

And really? How can somebody lives so long except by using blood magic? He says it himself to you, how.

You talking there to the ghosts of people who lived with Andraste - to the archon, his wife, Andraste friends, husband,etc... you seriously expect Bioware to pull of this kind of Deus Ex Machina? It would made a whole Ashes of Andraste quest in Origins invalid stupidity.

[Eternal Phoenix]

The Elven Gods are as fake as The Maker then Dark Korsar. The Old Gods are nearly dead. As soon as that other archdemon rages there will be a Grey Warden to send it to the abyss. So whatever you choose to worship, it won't live for long.

What's this garbage I'm hearing about Andraste being a mage? One burnt book written by a mage isn't evidence and a off-hand comment by a drunken dwarf about lyrium being in The Gauntlet (something the mages in your party don't even mention) doesn't prove the ashes were enchanted by lyrium or that Andraste was a mage. Even if the ashes were enchanted by lyrium, magic and lyrium was used before on The Arl Demon and didn't heal him. Then we have the spirit there who knows of your past and presumably might be able to read your mind something no known mage/magic in Thedas is able to do. The spirit even knows of the obscure past of your companions and has existed for centuries.

Even magic can't do that.

The fact that there's a spirit centuries old in The Gauntlet that knows of your past with ashes that can heal where magic can't certainly suggests there's something special going on.

So I think there's more evidence to suggest The Maker is real than to argue against. Especially when we now know some parts of The Chant of Light are true thanks to The Legacy DLC. Whether The Maker is a spirit/demon or truly a deity? I guess that's for anyone to decide.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 08 avril 2013 - 01:08 .

[Fiery Knight]

I was under the impresion Atheism doesn't exist in the world of Dragon Age. People who don't believe in the maker believe in something entirely different, considering magic exists and all. I could be wrong though. Can't find Gaider's post on this subject.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

The same way like Jesus did, the same way like Johan of Arc did.. the same way can Andraste.

And really? How can somebody lives so long except by using blood magic? He says it himself to you, how.

You talking there to the ghosts of people who lived with Andraste - to the archon, his wife, Andraste friends, husband,etc... you seriously expect Bioware to pull of this kind of Deus Ex Machina? It would made a whole Ashes of Andraste quest in Origins invalid stupidity.

1)Facepalm....one question .... so all Greek, Egyptian, Slavic, Sumerian, Shinto, African, Aztec and other with modern gods will  exist if someone told others about them?

2)Zatrian lives more that 400 years after using one blood mage ritual, Flemet lives long too......and Old Guardian(facially the Guardian bears a strong resemblance to Kolgrim) lives long(in place with close connection with Fade and ]large amount of lyrium(what Oghren sense in the mountain)) but can not leave the tomb

3)facepalm...1)you never saw this people before(exept statues of Archont) and why you not see Andraste herself......2)they are all Ash Wraits-demons from Fade....maybe this peoples are fragments of Andraste Ash memory that daemons use....but Ancient Archont were totally be a soul of to much powerfull mage to be bound like that

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 08 avril 2013 - 01:46 .

[Xilizhra]

And remember the gauntlet, where the spirit knows everything about everyone. Even a mage, no matter how powerful wouldn't be able to know that. Also her ashes cure illness, so obviously she is saint or some thing whatever, but definitely not a mage - that quest totally buried any chance of some ironic outcome for it.

Oghren gives an alternate explanation, that the ashes were enchanted by the gigantic lyrium vein running through the mountain. As for the Guardian's telepathy, I'm not going to assume that it alone presupposes the Maker's actual existence (especially since the Chant doesn't mention the Maker making anyone psychic either).

You talking there to the ghosts of people who lived with Andraste - to the archon, his wife, Andraste friends, husband,etc... you seriously expect Bioware to pull of this kind of Deus Ex Machina? It would made a whole Ashes of Andraste quest in Origins invalid stupidity.

They're programmed illusions, not ghosts.

What's this garbage I'm hearing about Andraste being a mage? One burnt book written by a mage isn't evidence and a off-hand comment by a drunken dwarf about lyrium being in The Gauntlet (something the mages in your party don't even mention) doesn't prove the ashes were enchanted by lyrium or that Andraste was a mage. Even if the ashes were enchanted by lyrium, magic and lyrium was used before on The Arl Demon and didn't heal him. Then we have the spirit there who knows of your past and presumably might be able to read your mind something no known mage/magic in Thedas is able to do. The spirit even knows of the obscure past of your companions and has existed for centuries.

They didn't leave the Arl lying in lyrium for a thousand years. Also, different forms of lyrium have different properties, as is most clearly shown in DA2. If there's a special kind of red lyrium that drives people insane, gives them extremely enhanced physical capabilities, and ultimately will turn them into copies of itself, and this was completely unknown to Thedas, why can't there be another kind of lyrium with healing properties? In any case, DA2 also shows that dwarves tend to sense the presence of lyrium before mages do; that, at least, is how it worked with red lyrium.

David has stated you CANNOT be an atheist, at least in our modern sense of the word. You can question, but it seems you can't absolutely deny. Though you aren't forced to accept.

David Gaider doesn't really understand what atheism is. All that I consider important is denial of the Maker.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

David Gaider doesn't really understand what atheism is. All that I consider important is denial of the Maker.

I'd say he understands fairly well.

What makes you think he doesn't think that's the definition of Atheism?

And I WILL say that atheism is usually tied to other beliefs, like evolution for example. Unlikely in the Dragon Age universe.

Evolution isn't a "belief" any more than heliocentrism is. And my reason for this is because, to be frank, most people don't. While complete denial of any and all gods is one kind of atheism, it's not the only one; all that matters is to not have an active belief in any gods, and that's all I need. Though outright denial of the Maker would be quite satisfying.

[Xilizhra]

It absolutely is. It completely defies science, more specifically the second law of thermodynamics (one of the most, if not THE most universal scientific law). It's totally belief.

Ah, yes. Of course, evolution could never work without some gigantic external power source about 93 million miles away constantly pouring new energy onto the planet for the past few billion years and allowing life to exist in the first place. Congratulations, you just beat Science.

What you're describing there with the bolded is skepticism, not atheism. Atheism is denial, skepticism is "I'll believe when I see it." I believe we've had this conversation before.

If so, you were wrong then too. Active denial of everything is specifically antitheism; atheism doesn't require one to go so far.

[LobselVith8]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Andraste was not mage. Don't talk nonsense.

One book (The Search for the True Prophet) made the claim that Andraste was a mage.

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

And remember the gauntlet, where the spirit knows everything about everyone. Even a mage, no matter how powerful wouldn't be able to know that.

The Guardian doesn't know everything, or else the ashes couldn't become tainted. The Guardian's abilities aren't definitive proof for any of The Warden's companions, either.

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Also her ashes cure illness, so obviously she is saint or some thing whatever, but definitely not a mage - that quest totally buried any chance of some ironic outcome for it.

Oghren points out that a thick wall of lyrium is effecting everything in the temple, including the ashes.

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Oh it's this thread again

David has stated you CANNOT be an atheist, at least in our modern sense of the word. You can question, but it seems you can't absolutely deny. Though you aren't forced to accept. 

Originally, Gaider said that. Gaider also conceded that the option existed in Origins since he forgot about it, but he said the option won't be avaliable ever again... until enough fans voiced their opposition to this that he changed his mind on the issue and said it might be avaliable.

[Xilizhra]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, Xil, only that you're obscuring and not providing an argument.

THE SUN. Earth is not a closed system free of all external sources of energy. While the first forms of life probably evolved in deep-ocean vents and relied on chemosynthesis rather than photosynthesis, they used geothermal energy that was being added to their system, and didn't rely on a closed system either. And now, life on Earth's surface, at least, is entirely reliant on solar energy. So no, there's no violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

As I said the last time we had this discussion, where are you getting your definition from? It's incorrect.

Differing interpretations of definition A.