211 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Setting or lore might have something to do with this, if I am guessing right. Maybe if Thedas ever reaches the 20th/21st century. Still, I'm glad there's an option not to express belief. My characters would probably express belief, but that's my reading of the setting.

It's as much about deciding where to spend our words, IMO.

[Renmiri1]

almostinsane99 wrote...

I hope it's not just atheism that is included along with Andrastianism. It'd be interesting if the main character can express belief in the Dalish Pantheon.

I don't hold much hope, considering the main character is human, but one can dream. I do hope I can have my character say they believe in the Maker and Andraste if not the Chantry or say it's a man-made institution doing its best/been abused by Divines or the Orlesian Monarchs.

Acknowledging the Dalish gods exist might work too, maybe.

Don't see that as much different as seeing Elves join the Qun. I'd be surprised if the writers didn't have humans believing in the Creator and Elves believing in the Maker too.

[Senya]

^^
That would be interesting.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Setting
or lore might have something to do with this, if I am guessing right.
Maybe if Thedas ever reaches the 20th/21st century. Still, I'm glad
there's an option not to express belief. My characters would probably
express belief, but that's my reading of the setting.

It's as much about deciding where to spend our words, IMO.

Well, I guess that makes sense. It's important to tell whatever awesome story you guys are telling than penning down every belief/non-belief. LOL.

I think Gaider's decision was reasonable, but that's just my personal opinion.

I am looking forward to new Codex Entries on religion. In fact, on every topic. I can't wait for The World of Thedas.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 09 avril 2013 - 01:51 .

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some fans want to RP as an atheist, for different reasons. For me, playing as a mage protagonist who follows the Chantry makes no sense. 

Actually, as someone planning on playing a mage, I think it can make sense, depending on your character's point of view. An Aequitarian believing that mages need to adhere to a sort of code might follow the Chantry and want to work with it to strike a balance between freedom and safety as the Circles have failed to do.

Or he or she might want to reform the Chantry and see it as what it might be if it took the right path. I believe someone quoted MLK in this topic and a mage might have a similar viewpoint.

Or, a mage might be simply an Andrastian that believes in a less hiearchal structure and shrink it or return Andrastianism to the way it was in the years between Andraste's death and the Chantry's founding.

But, I think player choice as long as it corresponds with the lore is important. If not atheism, then skepticism I think can be an option. I don't see any of my characters being skeptical of religion so much as authority, but I think it should be there.

But, I swear, if there are vids of the Inquistor say he's atheist/Andrastian followed by the opposite, then the former, then the latter, then the former...

I know a mage can be religiously Andrastian - as we see with Anders and Wynne - but it's not something that makes sense for me. I find the Chantry to be morally reprehensible, especially when it comes to mages. It's why I have no interest in playing as a character who believes in the Chantry.

[Volus Warlord]

LobselVith8 wrote...

*snip*

I know a mage can be religiously Andrastian - as we see with Anders and Wynne - but it's not something that makes sense for me. I find the Chantry to be morally reprehensible, especially when it comes to mages. It's why I have no interest in playing as a character who believes in the Chantry.

Think of it as being something similar in nature to a Janissary. 

[Rawgrim]

Morrigan clearly has an atheist attitude towards the Chantry religion, though. Players should too, I guess. if they wish it.

[Volus Warlord]

Rawgrim wrote...

Morrigan clearly has an atheist attitude towards the Chantry religion, though. Players should too, I guess. if they wish it.

That's an odd way to describe it.

[Rawgrim]

Thanks.

[Noctis Augustus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

All I want is to be able to express that I don't believe in this "Maker". Even if he exists and I'm wrong. If we have concrete proof that he exists I still don't want to worship him.

This is a bit different than atheism then. If you don't like the Maker, as a quote by Gaider earlier in this thread from LobselVith8:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

So you may not have the ability to actively speak out against The Maker, you by no means are forced to worship the Maker either, nor express belief in him.

But he says "doubt" or "belief", which I'm pretty confident that it will be the same as DAII instead of DAO in which you could say things like "It's a foolish supersticion" and "I told you before I don't believe in the Maker". That's what I want. And don't even get me started on Hawke saying things like "May the Maker be with you", I'm from a Catholic family and I never say "God", "Jesus" or any other Christian expressions so don't tell me that's because he lives in an Andrastian society. Is it that hard or expensive to do that? At least I'm sure it will please a lot of fans/buyers.

What happened to you Bioware? You've changed so much... Although I think I know the answer.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 09 avril 2013 - 12:15 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Morrigan clearly has an atheist attitude towards the Chantry religion, though. Players should too, I guess. if they wish it.

More like Anti-Chantry like I am, that's what I truly want! But since I doubt Bioware would allow us to be like that, I'll be satisfied to just declare disbelief like in DAO. My favourite was when the Warden-Commander said that the Chantry was a "foolish supersticion", interesting that at the time I took those choices as granted.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 09 avril 2013 - 12:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Volus Warlord wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

*snip*

I know a mage can be religiously Andrastian - as we see with Anders and Wynne - but it's not something that makes sense for me. I find the Chantry to be morally reprehensible, especially when it comes to mages. It's why I have no interest in playing as a character who believes in the Chantry.

Think of it as being something similar in nature to a Janissary. 

The developers already said we won't be forced to work for the Chantry or the templars, so I don't think that will be an issue.

[Noctis Augustus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I see no evidence there that he's considering making atheism an option. Again, skepticism, but not atheism. 

You seem to be voicing this line of thought because Gaider originally said atheism didn't exist in Thedas:

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

However, Gaider conceded that he was wrong on the same page:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 

In Xil's thread, Gaider again conceded that he was wrong because it was available in Origins, and conceded that fans remembered better than he did (here's that specific snippet):

Dave Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you).

Furthermore, after many people voiced their opposition to this, Gaider changed his mind about permitting the protagonist to be an atheist in Thedas:

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Ultimately, the ability to determine the personality and/or feelings on your own character is one of the fundamental strengths of an RPG, and one that DA is sticking with. Yes, it must also work within the context of the setting and the plot-- you can't do anything-- but that's always been the case with any game, and in the case of DA3 it is not required that you be forced into a certain set of beliefs in order to make it work.

You also participated in this thread, and we discussed the matter. I'm sure you probably forgot about it, though. I hope this is sufficient for you.

I definitely did not forget about it--that was the thread I was thinking about actually. But I think we're interpreting his last statement differently. I don't feel it indicates we'll be able to be atheists--be able to reject Andrasteism. I think it says we won't have to accept Andrasteism.


I think it's saying we can be skeptics, not that we can be atheists.

Exactly, that's what worries me. DAII style "doubt", it makes no sense why they're doing this.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Exactly, that's what worries me. DAII style "doubt", it makes no sense why they're doing this.

Because it's a "Medieval" game and you need to obtain high "world readiness" before you are able to shout "atheism"! 

[Noctis Augustus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Exactly, that's what worries me. DAII style "doubt", it makes no sense why they're doing this.

Maybe because it's a rather unimportant issue, and making this choice simplifies the dialog they'd have to do.

When it comes to role playing, it isn't. Simple, that's Bioware's thing now isn't it?

Legatus Arianus wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Exactly, that's what worries me. DAII style "doubt", it makes no sense why they're doing this.

Because it's a "Medieval" game and you need to obtain high "world readiness" before you are able to shout "atheism"! 

So be it. As long as I'm able to do it. They can contextualize those choices, I can state those views to people I'm going to kill, my companions and at the end. I'm not asking for them to do it out of context, never did.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 09 avril 2013 - 04:24 .

[Sir JK]

Personally, I'd love to see the game explore religion further. We've had a rather good start (with a few hiccups perhaps) methinks, and I hope we'll continue down the path. More lore is always nice, as is exploring the hierachy and the functioning of the organisation. I'd love to see more exploration of faith though, the personal relationship to the religion. Both in terms of allowing the PC to explore it on their own, but also with the NPC as "guides"; with them taking us on a short trip in which we're shown how much and why their religion matters to them. Just how much part of their identity it is or isn't.

I'd like the PC to be able to express doubt, indifference and belief, and perhaps even denial if appropriate. But even if you play a character that is an avowed non-amdrastian I feel the theme has interesting angles to be explored. Following others on their journey of identity as mentioned. But also experiencing the isolation that comes with choosing not to partake in what for many in the setting is an integral part of their lives, being "forced" to be nothing more than an observer to large parts of their lives. But also how much work it puts in for the care of others, in giving solace, in trying to protect lives (by promoting peace), in trying to improve people's lives. Being shown how much it matters (or does not matter). The core question always beeing: "What does it mean to take part or not take part?".

If the underlying struggle is, as speculated, between mages and templars and the Chantry being caught inbetween then I feel this theme could be especially powerful. By no means the primary one of course, but a secondary one that tags along down the line.

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I definitely did not forget about it--that was the thread I was thinking about actually. But I think we're interpreting his last statement differently. I don't feel it indicates we'll be able to be atheists--be able to reject Andrasteism. I think it says we won't have to accept Andrasteism.

I think it's saying we can be skeptics, not that we can be atheists. 

If you're correct, then that would be extremely disappointing for a lot of people, since I'm not the only one who felt that Gaider was going to be inclusive for players who wanted the same amount of freedom that Origins had given them. It doesn't make any sense to prohibit the player from being an atheist when the option was available in Origins and Awakening.

Inquisition will already prohibit me from a myriad of things that I really liked from Origins (like racial options for the protagonist), and all I'm hearing about the next Dragon Age is that it's going to repeat a lot of Dragon Age II - which was a game I didn't really care much for. This is why I'm going to wait to hear what other players say about Inquisition before I even consider purchasing the game, because I'm getting the feeling that it's going to disappoint me if I purchase it.

EntropicAngel wrote...

It sounds like you're more annoyed with the poor paraphrasing, than simply being an Andrastein (???) line. Is that correct? 

I was annoyed with the bad paraphrasing, but that wasn't all I was bothered about. I'm annoyed that Hawke could only be religiously Andrastian, and there was no option for Hawke to be atheist like The Warden could be. It made no sense to me for my character to be religiously Andrastian, and Hawke felt more and more like he was merely Bioware's character. I'm not interested in a jRPG and playing with a character who was created by the developers; I want to create my own character.

With my Surana Warden, I could determine his view on the Circle, on the templars, on Greagoir, on which Fraternity he favored, on his views about blood magic, and even determine where he grew up and how he viewed his upbringing. With Hawke, I can choose between three poorly written paraphrases that leave me surprised with what Hawke will say next. I can have absolutely no control over Hawke's auto-dialogue or the dominant tone that the Champion takes. 

I'm annoyed that Hawke had one single point of view available when his mother died: that she was with the Maker. Why is Hawke limited to having one point of view? It's ridiculous. I'm also annoyed that Hawke is telling Feynriel for the Maker to guide him, when Feynriel doesn't worship the Maker but the Creators, and his people had a very terrible history with the Chantry - who (according to the Dalish) invaded their homeland with templars to start the war with the Dales, and ended up outlawing the elven religion when the Chantry defeated them. It makes Hawke come across as a complete idiot.

Hawke's dialogue with Sebastian continues this trend of allowing Hawke to have one single point of view: that of someone who is religiously Andrastian.

[Senya]

^^

My memory was fuzzy, but weren't there three options? I remember in my playthrough, one was to blame magic. Did that mention the Maker, because truthfully I didn't choose it or the third option I don't remember.

Sir JK wrote...

Personally, I'd love to see the game explore religion further. We've had a rather good start (with a few hiccups perhaps) methinks, and I hope we'll continue down the path. More lore is always nice, as is exploring the hierachy and the functioning of the organisation. I'd love to see more exploration of faith though, the personal relationship to the religion. Both in terms of allowing the PC to explore it on their own, but also with the NPC as "guides"; with them taking us on a short trip in which we're shown how much and why their religion matters to them. Just how much part of their identity it is or isn't.

I'd like the PC to be able to express doubt, indifference and belief, and perhaps even denial if appropriate. But even if you play a character that is an avowed non-amdrastian I feel the theme has interesting angles to be explored. Following others on their journey of identity as mentioned. But also experiencing the isolation that comes with choosing not to partake in what for many in the setting is an integral part of their lives, being "forced" to be nothing more than an observer to large parts of their lives. But also how much work it puts in for the care of others, in giving solace, in trying to protect lives (by promoting peace), in trying to improve people's lives. Being shown how much it matters (or does not matter). The core question always beeing: "What does it mean to take part or not take part?".

If the underlying struggle is, as speculated, between mages and templars and the Chantry being caught inbetween then I feel this theme could be especially powerful. By no means the primary one of course, but a secondary one that tags along down the line.

That would definitely be a good subplot.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

My memory was fuzzy, but weren't there three options? I remember in my playthrough, one was to blame magic. Did that mention the Maker, because truthfully I didn't choose it or the third option I don't remember.

The other two options in that scene involved berating Merrill, but didn't provide for an alternative point of view.

[The Six Path of Pain]

ibbikiookami wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

Atheism =/= not believing in this "Maker"

All I want is to be able to express that I don't believe in this "Maker". Even if he exists and I'm wrong. If we have concrete proof that he exists I still don't want to worship him.

Example
(This so called Maker appears)
Companion: "The Maker exists!"
Me: "So?"
Companion: "You must worship him!"
Me: "Not a chance."

It's the same with the Old Gods... they exist but you don't necessarily worship them.

*sigh* I'm giving examples now... Hope I don't have to draw a picture.

You and I are thinking the same thoughts buddy. 

Companion:See Turles(That's my wardens name) I told you the maker was real!He's right over there.
Turles:huh I guess you were right after all...(turns around and walks away)
Companion:Wait,where are you going?Aren't you gonna get on your knees and worship him.
Turles:NAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have fun with that though(says this with his back turned as he contunues to walk away)

[Silfren]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

There weren't a lot of atheists in medieval Europe. Thedas is based on medieval Europe. Atheism is a very modern concept.

For the love of all that's holy can we please DROP this stupid notion that Thedas being based--and loosely at that, per the writers' own statements--means the same thing as identical? 

However poorly implemented the concept is, we are assured that Thedas is gender-egalitarian.  We also see that in the dominant religion of most of the known world, women are the ones in power.  We also see that slavery in most of the world is illegal on moral grounds.  We also see quite a few examples of progressive ideas.  It most assuredly is NOT "medieval Europe" in that context, let alone when you add the fantasical elements of mages, dragons, elves, dwarves, darkspawn, and other things that also did not exist in medieval Europe.  It's just really effing stupid to claim that atheism can't be a part of Thedas because it's based on medieval Europe, when we see plenty of elements which also did not belong to medieval Europe as being part of the setting.

Being based on something is in no wise the same thing as being lifted whole-cloth from it, but for some idiotic reason that's what people insist on it meaning whenever they try to justify some aspect of Thedas by claiming it was based on medieval Europe.

[Dave of Canada]

The problem presented is that the entire anti-slavery attitude and women in roles of power is ingrained into the lore of the universe, Chantry dogma empowers women because their religious icon is a woman herself and her entire crusade was against slavery.

Thedas is similar to our ancient societies in the respect that it's entirely built off the religious dogma being spouted by the people in charge, it's structure controls the entire world from monarchy to common-folk with education and theology only being provided to those under their control or those who've got the money for it.

The entire idea behind questioning Chantry beliefs requires that you'd be fully educated (nobility / circle mage / chantry scholar) or be born outside the Chantry's over-sight (Morrigan, Dalish or Dwarves) and even then, they're not athiests and have their own core beliefs.

The closest thing I'd say to atheism which would fit in the context of the universe is possibly Aveline, someone who doesn't let it dictate her entire life but it still had a significant impact on her that she still refers to the Maker and such. Similar to how most people in our world say "Thank god" or "They've gone to heaven/a better place/etc" through sheer societal influence.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 avril 2013 - 05:18 .