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Religion in DAIII: Inquisition


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#151
Enigmatick

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


Anders DA2 writer!!!! Image IPB

Glad to see you still post around here ^^


This thread could end up getting real bad real quick now.

#152
Noctis Augustus

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


Thank you. At the very least I really appreciate you posting about this issue.

#153
Renmiri1

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Enigmatick wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


Anders DA2 writer!!!! Image IPB

Glad to see you still post around here ^^


This thread could end up getting real bad real quick now.


I hope not. DA fans are not ME fans. And I'm sure Allan and Ninja and Blair have the banhammer ready if someone revives those ME hatefests. I was so ashamed to be part of BSN after I heard of it!

Is one of the reasons I wanted to post my admiration for Jennifer. We DA2 fans love her work ^^

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 avril 2013 - 10:49 .


#154
The Elder King

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Renmiri1 wrote...



I hope not. DA fans are not ME fans. And I'm sure Allan and Ninja and Blair have the banhammer ready if someone revives those ME hatefests. I was so ashamed to be part of BSN after I heard of it!

Is one of the reasons I wanted to post my admiration for Jennifer. We DA2 fans love her work ^^


I know some DA2 fans that hated Anders, and as far as I see there are some here too. Though they could still consider Anders well-written and hate/dislike him for his actions, so they could appreciate the writer.

As for myself, while Anders isn't exactly my favourite character, and I preferred him in DAA, I don't think he's badly written.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 avril 2013 - 12:14 .


#155
Senya

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


I am glad to hear that. There really should be a balance of the good and the bad in the Chantry. And I feel for you, Ms. Hepler. This is a topic that can get into a flame war if not handled well. My props go out to you.

Well, my main points are summed up as follows:

1. Storyline consistency considering the player character and setting.

2. And handling it well enough so people in real life won't get into another religous flame war on the internet. Too many of those already.

Edit: And I liked Anders' writing. I didn't agree with him, obviously, but he was good, round character.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 11 avril 2013 - 11:15 .


#156
Eternal Phoenix

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Christ, what's with atheists these days?

Even in video games they want to hate against religion...

-_-

#157
MisterJB

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.

That is good to hear. Sometimes, it feels that those few Pro-Templars and Chantry players are doomed to drown in a sea of Pro-Mage players so, posts like this leave me hopeful.
Thank you, Ms.Hepler.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 avril 2013 - 12:54 .


#158
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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If the option to express disbelief is in, I hope it isn`t written so that you can only do so while being a hostile jerk.

#159
Renmiri1

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Nevermind, misread the post above me

Modifié par Renmiri1, 12 avril 2013 - 02:42 .


#160
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

If the option to express disbelief is in, I hope it isn`t written so that you can only do so while being a hostile jerk.


*Comment removed*


I was talking about characters in past games, not real people :P

It just seems that the non religious options seem to come up in the `hostile`dialog choices

Modifié par Shinian2, 12 avril 2013 - 02:43 .


#161
LobselVith8

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


It's an issue that some players dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and they would prefer to play as an atheist protagonist rather than a character who is religiously Andrastian.

No disrespect intended, but I'm also not sure why the developers continue to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, since one doesn't automatically equal the other. Simply because some people dislike or hate the Chantry doesn't mean that they hate religion in the real world. I can think that the Chantry is a monstrous institution for subjugating the elves and enslaving the mages without having a negative opinion on organized religion as a whole.

#162
Noctis Augustus

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Elton John is dead wrote...

Christ, what's with atheists these days?

Even in video games they want to hate against religion...

-_-


LobselVith8 wrote...

It's an issue that some players dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically, and they would prefer to play as an atheist protagonist rather than a character who is religiously Andrastian.

No
disrespect intended, but I'm also not sure why the developers continue
to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, since one doesn't
automatically equal the other. Simply because some people dislike or
hate the Chantry doesn't mean that they hate religion in the real world
.
I can think that the Chantry is a monstrous institution for subjugating
the elves and enslaving the mages without having a negative opinion on
organized religion as a whole.



#163
esper

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


I hope you are also aware that some off us hates the chantry for its in game religion (which I find horrendous), its treatment of people in generel (mages, elves even templars) and none of this have anything to do with organized religion in real life?

I just really, really dislike the chantry, the faith itself is right up there with the qunari's pratices (at least the chantry's version) and I just don't want my character associated with it.

#164
LobselVith8

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Elton John is dead wrote...

Christ, what's with atheists these days?

Even in video games they want to hate against religion...

-_-


Being atheist doesn't mean you hate religion. I really wish some people would stop spreading this nonsense around this board, because repeating this lie is inflammatory, and does nothing to facilitate a civil discussion when you are vilifying people who don't have the same views as you do.

Also, a player who wants to play as a fictional atheist in a fantasy game doesn't mean he or she is an atheist in real life. Some of us simply want the return of an option that was available in Origins. I don't see why it's such a problem for some people when we are simply asking for more options with the protagonist. Some of us don't like the Chantry of Andraste, and strongly disagree with how the Chantry uses religion against the elves and the mages. Since the protagonist is going to be "human only", some of us would prefer to play as an atheist instead of someone who is religiously Andrastian.

Many of us who have asked for the return of the atheist option from Origins have also defended the right of the Dalish to worship the Creators - the gods of the People - despite the Andrastian Chantry outlawing worship of the elven gods. Given this fact, I don't see why you - or anyone else - would think that we hate religion.

#165
Iakus

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overly streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother.

Modifié par iakus, 12 avril 2013 - 09:19 .


#166
Senya

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iakus wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overy streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother.


Every side needs saints and sinners. That's what makes the game grey instead of black and white. There should also be some gray in the antagonists to be fair, but in whole groups like the Chantry, definitely.

#167
esper

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almostinsane99 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overy streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother.


Every side needs saints and sinners. That's what makes the game grey instead of black and white. There should also be some gray in the antagonists to be fair, but in whole groups like the Chantry, definitely.


But this have nothing to do with the people in the chantry, but everything to do with the main character.

Hell, the chantry could be full of saints and no sinners and it still doesn't change the fact that some of us simply don't want the main character be represented or be connected with the chantry (and for some even with andrastism).

#168
Fast Jimmy

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iakus wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overy streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother.


To the theme of "We Built this City (on Rock and Roll)"
We built RPGs... We built RPGs for Player Control!

#169
CrazyRah

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's all i wish for. Thanks for taking your time to just chime in and say this.

#170
pmac_tk421

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CrazyRah wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's all i wish for. Thanks for taking your time to just chime in and say this.

Sounds fair to me. Recognize both and allow you to support either, but don't support one story wise.

#171
LobselVith8

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iakus wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overly streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother. 


What about this have to do with the topic of this thread or the current discussion? People were asking for the return of the option to be an atheist, which is seperate from the issues of the people who compromise the Chantry or the views on organized religion. I'm actually very concerned that the developers seem to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, or confusing hatred of the Chantry specifically with a hatred for all religion.

#172
Silfren

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LobselVith8 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

We are quite aware that we have many fans who dislike organized religion and also many for whom religion has been a positive force in their lives. We are keeping both groups of players in mind while we write. Obviously, we can't promise a perfect experience for everyone, but we are quite conscious of both points of view and are striving to recognize them in the game.


That's what I like to hear.

In the previous Dragon Age games, the Chantry has had both its saints and sinners as followers.  I'd hate to see it get overly streamlined just to demonize one side or th eother. 


What about this have to do with the topic of this thread or the current discussion? People were asking for the return of the option to be an atheist, which is seperate from the issues of the people who compromise the Chantry or the views on organized religion. I'm actually very concerned that the developers seem to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, or confusing hatred of the Chantry specifically with a hatred for all religion.


Lob, I don't really think you ever had the option to truly declare yourself an atheist in Orgins.  I think rather that you had the option of a handful of lines which varied from saying you didn't believe in the Maker, to arguing against the alleged benevolence of the Chantry, to just keeping your mouth shut when someone else went on about something religious, and maybe a couple other similar references.  That doesn't mean you had the option to play an atheist.  It means you had the option to pick responses that allowed you to interpret your character in several ways outside of the paradigm of the devout Chantry believer: you chose it to mean your character was an atheist, but another player could as easily have chosen all the same lines and interpreted their character as being anti-Andrastianism but not anti-religion, or anti-Chantry but not anti-Andrastianism, or just a character not really atheistic but suspicious of organized religion altogether.  This wouldn't be true of those lines were intended by Bioware to definitively make your character an atheist.

At no point does the game ever allow you to say "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the Maker or any Gods at all."  All it ever does is allow a person to choose from a number of statements ambiguous enough to be interpreted by the player in various ways.

This is not to say I don't agree with you that those optional lines shouldn't be returned.  I never rolled a character as an atheist, but I did roll ones that were too intelligent to swallow Chantry dogma as a given, and I'd like to see those options come back for DA3, particularly in light of the character being an Inquisitor.  It'd be so utterly delicious to have the possibility of playing someone involved deeply in Andrastian politics who was trying to use their position to subvert the whole order.

#173
robertthebard

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What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

#174
Melca36

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hhh89 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...



I hope not. DA fans are not ME fans. And I'm sure Allan and Ninja and Blair have the banhammer ready if someone revives those ME hatefests. I was so ashamed to be part of BSN after I heard of it!

Is one of the reasons I wanted to post my admiration for Jennifer. We DA2 fans love her work ^^


I know some DA2 fans that hated Anders, and as far as I see there are some here too. Though they could still consider Anders well-written and hate/dislike him for his actions, so they could appreciate the writer.

As for myself, while Anders isn't exactly my favourite character, and I preferred him in DAA, I don't think he's badly written.



My mage Hawkes always supported and ran off with Anders. :wizard:


My Warrior Hawkes were selfish  spoiled and  anti mage :devil:

#175
Noctis Augustus

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robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.


Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.