211 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

I definitely hate some Christians, especially those that believe my views should be suppressed, such as not allowing soldiers to have their pagan symbols on gravestones in Arlington National Cemetary, should I impose that view to all?  No?  Why not?  I'll tell you why not, they aren't out to offend me when they say "God Bless you" when I do something nice for them.  It seems like the mood is to impose the hatred of the Chantry onto everyone to gratify some.  You see, your character grew up on Thedas, and if Human, which I think is what we're looking at next(?), will have been raised around people that may or may not share your views.  Meaning, you will be exposed to them, and you will pick up the expletives.  Being raised in a Catholic environment, I would be surprised if you did, considering the commandments.  However, I'm willing to bet that people around you have, and do.  An expletive isn't a recognition of existence.  It is an expletive.  When I say "God damn it", it's not a prayer asking a God that I don't believe in to damn something, it's an expletive.

I'm all for giving people a chance to express disbelief.  I just don't want to see so much time devoted to it that the story has to suffer, since there are only so many hours in a day, and some of the views I have seen expressed since Origins would be extreme, to say the least.

[Noctis Augustus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

I know plenty of people who use those kinds of words, atheists or no (and you likely do as well), so your complaint isn't really true. Just because you don't do doesn't mean other people with your mindset don't do it, which means it isn't necessarily out of character based on that criteria.

I think the character shouldn't say any expletives unless it's optional. A neutral stance with no religious or political influence. In DAO we chose if we said that or not.

[Noctis Augustus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

I think the character shouldn't say any expletives unless it's optional. A neutral stance with no religious or political influence. In DAO we chose if we said that or not.

Certainly not a bad stance. But saying an expletive with religious connotations has no implications on the character, that's what I meant.

I don't like it though for my character to say those expletives. I prefer dialogue free from those influences unless we choose the option that has them, like DAO.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 05:49 .

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about this have to do with the topic of this thread or the current discussion? People were asking for the return of the option to be an atheist, which is seperate from the issues of the people who compromise the Chantry or the views on organized religion. I'm actually very concerned that the developers seem to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, or confusing hatred of the Chantry specifically with a hatred for all religion.

Lob, I don't really think you ever had the option to truly declare yourself an atheist in Orgins.  I think rather that you had the option of a handful of lines which varied from saying you didn't believe in the Maker, to arguing against the alleged benevolence of the Chantry, to just keeping your mouth shut when someone else went on about something religious, and maybe a couple other similar references.  That doesn't mean you had the option to play an atheist.  It means you had the option to pick responses that allowed you[/i] to interpret your character in several ways outside of the paradigm of the devout Chantry believer: you chose it to mean your character was an atheist, but another player could as easily have chosen all the same lines and interpreted their character as being anti-Andrastianism but not anti-religion, or anti-Chantry but not anti-Andrastianism, or just a character not really atheistic but suspicious of organized religion altogether.  This wouldn't be true of those lines were intended by Bioware to definitively make your character an atheist.

At no point does the game ever allow you to say "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the Maker or any Gods at all."  All it ever does is allow a person to choose from a number of statements ambiguous enough to be interpreted by the player in various ways.

This is not to say I don't agree with you that those optional lines shouldn't be returned.  I never rolled a character as an atheist, but I did roll ones that were too intelligent to swallow Chantry dogma as a given, and I'd like to see those options come back for DA3, particularly in light of the character being an Inquisitor.  It'd be so utterly delicious to have the possibility of playing someone involved deeply in Andrastian politics who was trying to use their position to subvert the whole order. 

The Cousland Warden could say he didn't believe in the Maker. The Surana Warden could say the Maker wasn't his god and condemn the Chantry for invading the homeland of his people for religious reasons. The Warden could tell Leliana that Andraste wasn't a divine figure. The Warden-Commander could explicitly tell Justice that belief in the Maker was a "ridiculous superstition".

I don't see it as ambiguous. Gaider conceded there was the option to express atheism:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 

Also, Gaider repeating this statement in Xil's thread (here's that specific snippet):

Dave Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you).

If the head writer admits there was the option to express atheism for The Warden, then it explains why multiple people have pointed out there were options to express atheism in Origins and Awakening. I certainly don't think the protagonist should be limited to being religiously Andrastian by any measure when The Warden could make it explicitly clear that he didn't believe in the Maker.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2013 - 06:14 .

[Silfren]

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

Maybe you don't, but it is true that when people live in a society saturated with religious expletives, the vast majority will internalize those expletives.  I'm not a Christian and I am vehemently against several organized Christian sects, but I still frequently blurt out "Jesus Christ" when I'm startled or injured.  Doing that doesn't mean I'm a Christian; it means I grew up around people who blurted out "Jesus Christ" whenever they were startled or injured.  The same with "Oh my God," which is such a ubiquitous expression it's used by nearly everyone, regardless of whether they're theists or not, whether as an emotional response to surprise, shock, excitement, anger, elation, etc.  The people who don't internalize this tendency are the exception, not the rule.  I even had an atheist friend once who tried to train herself to use specifically-atheist expletives for that very reason.

[LobselVith8]

ibbikiookami wrote...

I think the character shouldn't say any expletives unless it's optional. A neutral stance with no religious or political influence. In DAO we chose if we said that or not. 

My main issue is with Hawke being limited to thinking his mother is with the Maker, telling Creators follower Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him (which is incredibly insensitive given what the Chantry did to the People), and his limited point of view as a religious Andrastian in his religious discussions with Sebastian. He's written as a religious Andrastian, and given Gaider forgetting that The Warden could be an atheist, it's not surprising. However, I have no interest in playing as a follower of the Chantry to any degree.

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

Maybe you don't, but it is true that when people live in a society saturated with religious expletives, the vast majority will internalize those expletives.  I'm not a Christian and I am vehemently against several organized Christian sects, but I still frequently blurt out "Jesus Christ" when I'm startled or injured.  Doing that doesn't mean I'm a Christian; it means I grew up around people who blurted out "Jesus Christ" whenever they were startled or injured.  The same with "Oh my God," which is such a ubiquitous expression it's used by nearly everyone, regardless of whether they're theists or not, whether as an emotional response to surprise, shock, excitement, anger, elation, etc.  The people who don't internalize this tendency are the exception, not the rule.  I even had an atheist friend once who tried to train herself to use specifically-atheist expletives for that very reason.

I just find it strange that people say that when they hate the religion. Being indifferent is one thing but hating it?

[Noctis Augustus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

I think the character shouldn't say any expletives unless it's optional. A neutral stance with no religious or political influence. In DAO we chose if we said that or not. 

My main issue is with Hawke being limited to thinking his mother is with the Maker, telling Creators follower Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him (which is incredibly insensitive given what the Chantry did to the People), and his limited point of view as a religious Andrastian in his religious discussions with Sebastian. He's written as a religious Andrastian, and given Gaider forgetting that The Warden could be an atheist, it's not surprising. However, I have no interest in playing as a follower of the Chantry to any degree.

Yes, that's what I mean by neutral stance. You only say that if you choose to do so, like DAO. I hated that too, hope it doesn't repeat itself in DAIII.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 06:31 .

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about this have to do with the topic of this thread or the current discussion? People were asking for the return of the option to be an atheist, which is seperate from the issues of the people who compromise the Chantry or the views on organized religion. I'm actually very concerned that the developers seem to confuse atheism with a dislike of religion, or confusing hatred of the Chantry specifically with a hatred for all religion.

Lob, I don't really think you ever had the option to truly declare yourself an atheist in Orgins.  I think rather that you had the option of a handful of lines which varied from saying you didn't believe in the Maker, to arguing against the alleged benevolence of the Chantry, to just keeping your mouth shut when someone else went on about something religious, and maybe a couple other similar references.  That doesn't mean you had the option to play an atheist.  It means you had the option to pick responses that allowed you[/i] to interpret your character in several ways outside of the paradigm of the devout Chantry believer: you chose it to mean your character was an atheist, but another player could as easily have chosen all the same lines and interpreted their character as being anti-Andrastianism but not anti-religion, or anti-Chantry but not anti-Andrastianism, or just a character not really atheistic but suspicious of organized religion altogether.  This wouldn't be true of those lines were intended by Bioware to definitively make your character an atheist.

At no point does the game ever allow you to say "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the Maker or any Gods at all."  All it ever does is allow a person to choose from a number of statements ambiguous enough to be interpreted by the player in various ways.

This is not to say I don't agree with you that those optional lines shouldn't be returned.  I never rolled a character as an atheist, but I did roll ones that were too intelligent to swallow Chantry dogma as a given, and I'd like to see those options come back for DA3, particularly in light of the character being an Inquisitor.  It'd be so utterly delicious to have the possibility of playing someone involved deeply in Andrastian politics who was trying to use their position to subvert the whole order. 

The Cousland Warden could say he didn't believe in the Maker. The Surana Warden could say the Maker wasn't his god and condemn the Chantry for invading the homeland of his people for religious reasons. The Warden could tell Leliana that Andraste wasn't a divine figure. The Warden-Commander could explicitly tell Justice that belief in the Maker was a "ridiculous superstition".

Lob, you overlooked my point entirely.  I already addressed all the things a PC could say.  NONE of them mean de facto that you can play an atheist.  They mean only that you have the option of interpreting your character in various theistic and not-so-theistic ways.  I know you understand that being able to say you don't believe in the Maker does NOT mean precisely the same thing as "I am an atheist."  It's true that a human PC saying this could mean just that, as they would not likely have been exposed to any other religion within Ferelden.  But it is ambiguous enough that picking that line doesn't automatically mean your character is an atheist, it's allowing for several interpretations.  I guarantee you, it's possible to pick that line "I don't believe in the Maker," and not be declaring yourself to be an atheist.

I don't see it as ambiguous. Gaider conceded there was the option to express atheism:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 

Also, Gaider repeating this statement in Xil's thread (here's that specific snippet):

Dave Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you).

With all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting what Gaider said.  In the first statement, he's not definitively admitting that it's there, he's saying IF it's there...he's acknowledging that he could simply be wrong, but only as a possibility, not a given.  But then he goes on to say it was an accidental oversight, because the option of atheism was never intended to be there.  I think you're disregarding the significance of that statement.  You're saying that Bioware gave you the option, but the fact is, they didn't.  They merely had dialogue in there that allowed some players to assume it as an option.  in the second quote, he apparently has either decided to accept the statement as true, or he's looked it up for himself.  In either case though, you have Gaider's insistence that it was due to an accidental oversight.  Either they meant to strike out any atheistic lines, or put them in the game without considering how they could be interpreted. 

So I really don't understand why you're fixating on something as if Bioware purposely included it when it has been made abundantly clear it was, at best, an oversight.  They did NOT intend to give you the option of interpreting an atheist character.

I'd understand your stance better if it was true that Bioware had chosen to consciously provide atheism as an option for a PC, only to remove it completely for DA2, but that isn't at all what happened. 

If the head writer admits there was the option to express atheism for The Warden, then it explains why multiple people have pointed out there were options to express atheism in Origins and Awakening. I certainly don't think the protagonist should be limited to being religiously Andrastian by any measure when The Warden could make it explicitly clear that he didn't believe in the Maker.

Again, I think the problem lies in the assumption that the various statements you have mentioned definitively and only mean atheism.  They don't.  They leave room for multiple interpretations, ranging from atheism to anti-Chantryism to anti-Andrastianism to anti-organized religion. 

That said, I do agree that there should be dialogue options to express those same sentiments again, just as you had in Origins.  I don't think she's an atheist in the modern sense of the word, not the way you're using it, but we DO have the example of Aveline as someone who can express significant doubt about the state religion's dogmas, so it hardly makes sense for Gaider or anyone else to be claiming that those ideas are inappropriate for a PC.  And of course we have the example of Morrigan, too; I don't think she is an atheist in the sense it's used here, either, but she definitely was not religious.  (And just before anyone says, being non-religious is NOT the same thing as being an atheist).

Modifié par Silfren, 13 avril 2013 - 06:51 .

[Wulfram]

Silfren wrote...

With all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting what Gaider said.  In the first statement, he's not definitively admitting that it's there, he's saying IF it's there...he's acknowledging that he could simply be wrong, but only as a possibility, not a given.

Well he was wrong, because that was a direct quote from the toolset.  DA:O is convenient that way.

(Though it's fairly easy to check out in game too, since it's right near the start)

[Allan Schumacher]

ibbikiookami wrote...

I just find it strange that people say that when they hate the religion. Being indifferent is one thing but hating it?

Because the phrase is just a bunch of words to them.  Ones that have probably been used within similar contexts (being startled or injured).

I'm probably more indifferent than hateful towards religions, but I also state things like "Jesus Christ" or "God dammit" both in written and spoken words.

It's a way of conveying a level of outrage, usually, to which I have simply heard enough in my own life, and I have a reasonable understanding of how someone might interpret the words that I am saying, regardless of whether or not the listener is Christian.

As a counter point, I find it strange that someone would object to using a popular phrase as an effective swear because they hate the religion.  On the other hand, I have much more exposure to religious people preferring to not say phrases like that, because they consider it disrespectful to their own religion.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

I think the character shouldn't say any expletives unless it's optional. A neutral stance with no religious or political influence. In DAO we chose if we said that or not. 

My main issue is with Hawke being limited to thinking his mother is with the Maker, telling Creators follower Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him (which is incredibly insensitive given what the Chantry did to the People), and his limited point of view as a religious Andrastian in his religious discussions with Sebastian. He's written as a religious Andrastian, and given Gaider forgetting that The Warden could be an atheist, it's not surprising. However, I have no interest in playing as a follower of the Chantry to any degree.

This I can totally agree with.  I see no reason why the neutral or doubting statements could not have been left in.  If for no other reason, if Aveline could express doubt, why shouldn't Hawke have been able to?

[Silfren]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

Maybe you don't, but it is true that when people live in a society saturated with religious expletives, the vast majority will internalize those expletives.  I'm not a Christian and I am vehemently against several organized Christian sects, but I still frequently blurt out "Jesus Christ" when I'm startled or injured.  Doing that doesn't mean I'm a Christian; it means I grew up around people who blurted out "Jesus Christ" whenever they were startled or injured.  The same with "Oh my God," which is such a ubiquitous expression it's used by nearly everyone, regardless of whether they're theists or not, whether as an emotional response to surprise, shock, excitement, anger, elation, etc.  The people who don't internalize this tendency are the exception, not the rule.  I even had an atheist friend once who tried to train herself to use specifically-atheist expletives for that very reason.

I just find it strange that people say that when they hate the religion. Being indifferent is one thing but hating it?

As was already noted, its because the words are meaningless to them.  Expletives by definition usually are.  I can assure you, when I slammed the door on my finger this morning and let out a tirade of "Jesus Christ OW F*CK GODDAMMIT M*F*cker holy f*ckin God OW" I wasn't actually praying to Jesus or asking any God to damn anything, nor was I actually thinking about mothers I'd like to do sexual things to, etc.  Expressions like these are simply mindless cries of pain, shock, etc.  There's never any conscious thought behind their being blurted out; nearly every person internalizes them merely because such expletives are part of our social landscape. 

Modifié par Silfren, 13 avril 2013 - 06:59 .

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

Silfren wrote...

With all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting what Gaider said.  In the first statement, he's not definitively admitting that it's there, he's saying IF it's there...he's acknowledging that he could simply be wrong, but only as a possibility, not a given.

Well he was wrong, because that was a direct quote from the toolset.  DA:O is convenient that way.

(Though it's fairly easy to check out in game too, since it's right near the start)

Did you read the rest of my post wherein I already wrote that by the later quote Gaider had obviously already figured it out?

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

Maybe you don't, but it is true that when people live in a society saturated with religious expletives, the vast majority will internalize those expletives.  I'm not a Christian and I am vehemently against several organized Christian sects, but I still frequently blurt out "Jesus Christ" when I'm startled or injured.  Doing that doesn't mean I'm a Christian; it means I grew up around people who blurted out "Jesus Christ" whenever they were startled or injured.  The same with "Oh my God," which is such a ubiquitous expression it's used by nearly everyone, regardless of whether they're theists or not, whether as an emotional response to surprise, shock, excitement, anger, elation, etc.  The people who don't internalize this tendency are the exception, not the rule.  I even had an atheist friend once who tried to train herself to use specifically-atheist expletives for that very reason.

I just find it strange that people say that when they hate the religion. Being indifferent is one thing but hating it?

As was already noted, its because the words are meaningless to them.  Expletives by definition usually are.  I can assure you, when I slammed the door on my finger this morning and let out a tirade of "Jesus Christ OW F*CK GODDAMMIT M*F*cker holy f*ckin God OW" I wasn't actually praying to Jesus or asking any God to damn anything, nor was I actually thinking about mothers I'd like to do sexual things to, etc.  Expressions like these are simply mindless cries of pain, shock, etc.  There's never any conscious thought behind their being blurted out; nearly every person internalizes them merely because such expletives are part of our social landscape. 

Okay, there's no need to make such a big deal of my social ignorance. But... it still sounds wrong. I would really like to not say those.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 07:22 .

[Silfren]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

What I don't want to see is the writers bending over backwards over expletives like "Maker's breath". I am a nearly 50 year old non-Christian. I still say God Dammit when crap pisses me off, or when I hit my thumb with a hammer, amongst other things. Whether a character in the game believes in the Maker or not, they are still brought up in situations, mostly, where the Maker is followed, or, at the very least in the case of the Dalish, known about. There is nothing out of character about a human using Maker's Breath as an expletive, even if said character doesn't believe in the Maker. They were brought up around it, and have heard it used as such, and so it would become part of their own vocabulary, in the context of an expletive. Nothing about saying it implies belief.

Do you hate Christianity? Because some of us hate the Chantry and saying expletives like "Maker's breath" is completely out of character.

Oh and, I was raised by a catholic family and I never say those expletives related to christianity.

Maybe you don't, but it is true that when people live in a society saturated with religious expletives, the vast majority will internalize those expletives.  I'm not a Christian and I am vehemently against several organized Christian sects, but I still frequently blurt out "Jesus Christ" when I'm startled or injured.  Doing that doesn't mean I'm a Christian; it means I grew up around people who blurted out "Jesus Christ" whenever they were startled or injured.  The same with "Oh my God," which is such a ubiquitous expression it's used by nearly everyone, regardless of whether they're theists or not, whether as an emotional response to surprise, shock, excitement, anger, elation, etc.  The people who don't internalize this tendency are the exception, not the rule.  I even had an atheist friend once who tried to train herself to use specifically-atheist expletives for that very reason.

I just find it strange that people say that when they hate the religion. Being indifferent is one thing but hating it?

As was already noted, its because the words are meaningless to them.  Expletives by definition usually are.  I can assure you, when I slammed the door on my finger this morning and let out a tirade of "Jesus Christ OW F*CK GODDAMMIT M*F*cker holy f*ckin God OW" I wasn't actually praying to Jesus or asking any God to damn anything, nor was I actually thinking about mothers I'd like to do sexual things to, etc.  Expressions like these are simply mindless cries of pain, shock, etc.  There's never any conscious thought behind their being blurted out; nearly every person internalizes them merely because such expletives are part of our social landscape. 

Okay, there's no need to make such a big deal of my social ignorance. But... it still sounds wrong. I would really like to not say those.

I apologize; I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of anything, just addressing your post. 

I guess I can't see why it comes across as wrong, but that's because it's so normalized in my worldview I think very little about it at all.  It's just something that people do because we, all of us, down to the last individual, internalize the world around us to some degree.  Most of us will even internalize aspects of things we consciously consider abhorrent--which is why so many 'isms' of the world are as entrenched as they are. It's just the way humans are.

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Okay, there's no need to make such a big deal of my social ignorance. But... it still sounds wrong. I would really like to not say those.

I apologize; I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of anything, just addressing your post. 

No need to apologize, it's just that having this many people adress my post is unnecessary. Thank you though for taking your time to do it.

[robertthebard]

I just want to give an example of "I don't believe in the Maker" not being a claim to atheism:

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dalish Keeper.

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dwarven Noble.

Ok, I lied, it's a couple of examples. I do remember that line being available in DA: O, but I don't remember the context, or the direct conversation it was in. I do, however, seem to recall threads about wanting to profess atheism.

[LobselVith8]

robertthebard wrote...

I just want to give an example of "I don't believe in the Maker" not being a claim to atheism:

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dalish Keeper.

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dwarven Noble.

Ok, I lied, it's a couple of examples. I do remember that line being available in DA: O, but I don't remember the context, or the direct conversation it was in. I do, however, seem to recall threads about wanting to profess atheism.

The Cousland protagonist and the Surana protagonist were raised in Andrastian societies, however. Both protagonists can address they don't believe in the only god they have ever been exposed to, and neither one is familiar with the elven or dwarven religion (given the dialogue).

And the point stands that some players have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who follows the faith of the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us think it's a monstrous institution that subjugated the elves and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia in the name of the Maker. Why would my elven mage follow this anti-elven, anti-mage religion? It's the problem I had with Hawke being limited to only voicing a religiously Andrastian point of view.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And the point stands that some players have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who follows the faith of the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us think it's a monstrous institution that subjugated the elves and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia in the name of the Maker. Why would my elven mage follow this anti-elven, anti-mage religion? It's the problem I had with Hawke being limited to only voicing a religiously Andrastian point of view.

I agree with this, but I don't personally think it will be the case, though admittedly could probably go either way.  But no, I don't think we'll be forced to play someone who is rabidly pro-Chantry.  It's a given that we're playing as a human, right?  I could see us playing a character that can make decisions indicating that they aren't in the Inquisition for religious reasons, or someone who starts out one way and ends up another. 

I heard the other day that some people expect a release date this year, to the extent that on Tumblr folks are saying we'll be playing DA3 in eight months.  Wonder how true this is, since I've also heard that the release has been pushed back.  But perhaps we'll be finding out soon enough.  I hope, Lob, that you'll consider playing the game when it does come around--I know you've said you likely wouldn't.

[robertthebard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I just want to give an example of "I don't believe in the Maker" not being a claim to atheism:

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dalish Keeper.

I don't believe in the Maker, says the Dwarven Noble.

Ok, I lied, it's a couple of examples. I do remember that line being available in DA: O, but I don't remember the context, or the direct conversation it was in. I do, however, seem to recall threads about wanting to profess atheism.

The Cousland protagonist and the Surana protagonist were raised in Andrastian societies, however. Both protagonists can address they don't believe in the only god they have ever been exposed to, and neither one is familiar with the elven or dwarven religion (given the dialogue).

And the point stands that some players have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who follows the faith of the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us think it's a monstrous institution that subjugated the elves and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia in the name of the Maker. Why would my elven mage follow this anti-elven, anti-mage religion? It's the problem I had with Hawke being limited to only voicing a religiously Andrastian point of view.

...and this option was available.  I don't recall Hawke making any references to being particularly religious, and you can, in fact, discuss this with Aveline at one point concerning Wesley.  Regarding Hawke's mother, I also read comments to the point that people wouldn't have mourned their mother's death.  Saying that she's with the Maker doesn't imply your belief, but your belief in what she believed.  I'm not Christian, but when my mother dies, I'm not going to hem and haw around about it.  She's a Christian, and if her beliefs are right, she'll be in the Heaven of her understanding, with the God of her understanding.  So me saying "she's with God now" doesn't mean I buy into it, just that I believe that she did.

[TEWR]

I think it'd help if Bioware came out and said just what kind of atheism they're not putting in the game. Atheism, historically, had a lot of different representations and they're not all the same. Similar, maybe heavily so, but not the same.

Or so I understand it, based on what I've read on atheism's history. For instance, during the Middle Ages expression of atheism was rare. Not nonexistant, but rare. An argument can be made that the PC we play can be that rarity. Atheism as a term didn't originate until the 16th century, true -- or so the sources I've read claim, but then again IIRC heretics were called atheists, so meh -- but atheistic ideas have existed for a much longer time.

Another example. Philosophical atheism doesn't denote a disbelief in deities by default, but rather attempts to explain the workings of the world from a fundamental and logical standpoint. So an earthquake would be explained for what it might be logically as opposed to "God stubbed his toe".

So to try and shovel atheism into one blanket definition -- whether the devs or the fans do it -- isn't actually helping matters but just making them worse.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 05:53 .