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[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think it'd help if Bioware came out and said just what kind of atheism they're not putting in the game. Atheism, historically, had a lot of different representations and they're not all the same. Similar, maybe heavily so, but not the same.

Or so I understand it, based on what I've read on atheism's history. For instance, during the Middle Ages expression of atheism was rare. Not nonexistant, but rare. An argument can be made that the PC we play can be that rarity. Atheism as a term didn't originate until the 16th century, true, but atheistic ideas have existed for a much longer time.

Another example. Philosophical atheism doesn't denote a disbelief in deities by default, but rather attempts to explain the workings of the world from a fundamental and logical standpoint. So an earthquake would be explained for what it might be logically as opposed to "God stubbed his toe".

So to try and shovel atheism into one blanket definition -- whether the devs or the fans do it -- isn't actually helping matters but just making them worse.

I think it's better to say that the English form of the word atheism wasn't coined until the 16th century--it stems from the Greek term atheos, which is a tad older than the 1500s, because the concept of atheism has existed in one form or another for a looooonnnnng time.  The modern definition of atheism is new, but the word itself and the basic idea of disbelief in (certain) gods is ancient.
To the ancient Romans, Christians were atheists because they rejected the gods of the state religion in favor of their own, but that obviously doesn't jive with the modern definition.  And I've known certain Christians who asserted that non-Christians were atheists--including Pagans, Muslims, etc.--on the logic that there's only one God, and any other gods are non-existent, so anyone who doesn't believe in the only God that exists can't but be an atheist, whatever they say they believe.  That doesn't jive with the standard accepted definition, but there it is.  Using the logic of either interpretation, an Andrastian could call the Dalish atheists, or the Dalish could scoff that the Andrastians are atheist.  Archaic and/or minority-held understandings of atheism, but they exist nonetheless.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 avril 2013 - 05:42 .

[pmac_tk421]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think it'd help if Bioware came out and said just what kind of atheism they're not putting in the game. Atheism, historically, had a lot of different representations and they're not all the same. Similar, maybe heavily so, but not the same.

Or so I understand it, based on what I've read on atheism's history. For instance, during the Middle Ages expression of atheism was rare. Not nonexistant, but rare. An argument can be made that the PC we play can be that rarity. Atheism as a term didn't originate until the 16th century, true, but atheistic ideas have existed for a much longer time.

Another example. Philosophical atheism doesn't denote a disbelief in deities by default, but rather attempts to explain the workings of the world from a fundamental and logical standpoint. So an earthquake would be explained for what it might be logically as opposed to "God stubbed his toe".

So to try and shovel atheism into one blanket definition -- whether the devs or the fans do it -- isn't actually helping matters but just making them worse.

I think it's better to say that the English form of the word atheism wasn't coined until the 16th century--it stems from the Greek term atheos, which is a tad older than the 1500s, because the concept of atheism has existed in one form or another for a looooonnnnng time.  The modern definition of atheism is new, but the word itself and the basic idea of disbelief in (certain) gods is ancient.
To the ancient Romans, Christians were atheists because they rejected the gods of the state religion in favor of their own, but that obviously doesn't jive with the modern definition.  And I've known certain Christians who asserted that non-Christians were atheists--including Pagans, Muslims, etc.--on the logic that there's only one God, and any other gods are non-existent, so anyone who doesn't believe in the only God that exists can't but be an atheist, whatever they say they believe.  That doesn't jive with the standard accepted definition, but there it is.  Using the logic of either interpretation, an Andrastian could call the Dalish atheists, or the Dalish could scoff that the Andrastians are atheist.  Archaic and/or minority-held understandings of atheism, but they exist nonetheless.

They would probably use the modern day definition of Atheist for the sake of the audience and use words like Heathen or Heretic. By the way, congrats on getting to the 9th page without the whole thread turning into a flame war and derailing. I should go bake a cake.

[Renmiri1]

As a devout Pastafarian I resent the fact that no one kneels in a show of respect to Isabella in full pirate regalia. It is our most sacred garb! And there are very little references to pasta or spagetty on DA!















j/k 

My point is that projecting RL religions into a game is a stupid demand and saying people "hate religion" because they hate the chantry is innacurate and baseless. Unless your religion also sanctifies / requires the lobotomizing of humans.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 14 avril 2013 - 11:12 .

[TheJediSaint]

Renmiri1 wrote...

As a devout Pastafarian I resent the fact that no one kneels in a show of respect to Isabella in full pirate regalia. It is our most sacred garb! And there are very little references to pasta or spagetty on DA!















j/k

What if the Dev team spend one day every work week dressed as pirates?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 14 avril 2013 - 11:11 .

[Renmiri1]

TheJediSaint wrote...

What if the Dev team spend one day every work week dressed as pirates?

THAT I'd pay to see 

[TEWR]

Going to bed soon so I might come back later tonight but...

I should go bake a cake.

A futile endeavor. The cake is a lie.

[LobselVith8]

robertthebard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Cousland protagonist and the Surana protagonist were raised in Andrastian societies, however. Both protagonists can address they don't believe in the only god they have ever been exposed to, and neither one is familiar with the elven or dwarven religion (given the dialogue).

And the point stands that some players have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who follows the faith of the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us think it's a monstrous institution that subjugated the elves and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia in the name of the Maker. Why would my elven mage follow this anti-elven, anti-mage religion? It's the problem I had with Hawke being limited to only voicing a religiously Andrastian point of view.

...and this option was available.  I don't recall Hawke making any references to being particularly religious, and you can, in fact, discuss this with Aveline at one point concerning Wesley.  

All Hawke does is inquire as to Aveline's views about the Maker, which he asks because she was married to a templar. Aveline's views aren't Hawke's views.

robertthebard wrote...

Regarding Hawke's mother, I also read comments to the point that people wouldn't have mourned their mother's death.  Saying that she's with the Maker doesn't imply your belief, but your belief in what she believed.  

Actually, it does indicate that this is Hawke's belief, because this is what Hawke explicitly says. If Hawke instead said: "She believed she would be with the Maker", then that would be one thing, but Hawke actually says that his mother is with the Maker.

robertthebard wrote...

I'm not Christian, but when my mother dies, I'm not going to hem and haw around about it.  She's a Christian, and if her beliefs are right, she'll be in the Heaven of her understanding, with the God of her understanding.  So me saying "she's with God now" doesn't mean I buy into it, just that I believe that she did.

Aside from the fact that this doesn't even take into account Hawke telling Creators-follower Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him and his pro-religiously Andrastian dialogue with Sebastian when they discuss religion, I'm not sure why you think I should fan fic alternative explanations to dialogue that's explicitly said.

Hawke said that his mother is with the Maker; I'm not going to pretend that there's some hidden meaning behind it. I'm interested in having actual freedom in shaping who my protagonist is, not jumping through mental gymnastics to hide the fact that the developers gave me little choice at all with the prior protagonist.

[robertthebard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Cousland protagonist and the Surana protagonist were raised in Andrastian societies, however. Both protagonists can address they don't believe in the only god they have ever been exposed to, and neither one is familiar with the elven or dwarven religion (given the dialogue).

And the point stands that some players have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who follows the faith of the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us think it's a monstrous institution that subjugated the elves and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia in the name of the Maker. Why would my elven mage follow this anti-elven, anti-mage religion? It's the problem I had with Hawke being limited to only voicing a religiously Andrastian point of view.

...and this option was available.  I don't recall Hawke making any references to being particularly religious, and you can, in fact, discuss this with Aveline at one point concerning Wesley.  

All Hawke does is inquire as to Aveline's views about the Maker, which he asks because she was married to a templar. Aveline's views aren't Hawke's views.

robertthebard wrote...

Regarding Hawke's mother, I also read comments to the point that people wouldn't have mourned their mother's death.  Saying that she's with the Maker doesn't imply your belief, but your belief in what she believed.  

Actually, it does indicate that this is Hawke's belief, because this is what Hawke explicitly says. If Hawke instead said: "She believed she would be with the Maker", then that would be one thing, but Hawke actually says that his mother is with the Maker.

robertthebard wrote...

I'm not Christian, but when my mother dies, I'm not going to hem and haw around about it.  She's a Christian, and if her beliefs are right, she'll be in the Heaven of her understanding, with the God of her understanding.  So me saying "she's with God now" doesn't mean I buy into it, just that I believe that she did.

Aside from the fact that this doesn't even take into account Hawke telling Creators-follower Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him and his pro-religiously Andrastian dialogue with Sebastian when they discuss religion, I'm not sure why you think I should fan fic alternative explanations to dialogue that's explicitly said.

Hawke said that his mother is with the Maker; I'm not going to pretend that there's some hidden meaning behind it. I'm interested in having actual freedom in shaping who my protagonist is, not jumping through mental gymnastics to hide the fact that the developers gave me little choice at all with the prior protagonist.

Frankly, as a non-Christian, living in the Bible Belt, you'd think I'd feel more forced about than I do, including references in video games.  But I played all my Wardens, and all my Hawkes as if they weren't religious, and I never came away feeling like I might as well have been the Divine.  It seems to me that you do feel that way though.  Perhaps it's in the dialog choices you made?  It's a question, there are some dialog selections that I never made due to the way I wanted to project myself, so I don't know what kinds of outcomes could come from them.  I was hardcore into the middle responses, even if I didn't particularly feel they would be appropriate, but I wanted to be true to the picture I was painting.

[LobselVith8]

robertthebard wrote...

Frankly, as a non-Christian, living in the Bible Belt, you'd think I'd feel more forced about than I do, including references in video games.  But I played all my Wardens, and all my Hawkes as if they weren't religious, and I never came away feeling like I might as well have been the Divine.  It seems to me that you do feel that way though.  Perhaps it's in the dialog choices you made?  It's a question, there are some dialog selections that I never made due to the way I wanted to project myself, so I don't know what kinds of outcomes could come from them.  I was hardcore into the middle responses, even if I didn't particularly feel they would be appropriate, but I wanted to be true to the picture I was painting.

I feel that way because my Warden could say he believed in the Maker, or express that he didn't believe in the Maker; in contrast, Hawke was limited to one point of view: believing in the Maker. That's a problem when Dragon Age is supposed to be a cRPG, rather than a jRPG.

[Karlone123]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

As a devout Pastafarian I resent the fact that no one kneels in a show of respect to Isabella in full pirate regalia. It is our most sacred garb! And there are very little references to pasta or spagetty on DA!















j/k

What if the Dev team spend one day every work week dressed as pirates?

This needs tweeting to them.

[pmac_tk421]

Karlone123 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

As a devout Pastafarian I resent the fact that no one kneels in a show of respect to Isabella in full pirate regalia. It is our most sacred garb! And there are very little references to pasta or spagetty on DA!















j/k

What if the Dev team spend one day every work week dressed as pirates?

This needs tweeting to them.

We're in dangerous enough territory as is, talking about religion on the internet. Don't take any unnecisary risks.

[Allan Schumacher]

Please do not get into definitions as to what is or is not a "CRPG" vs "JRPG" or anything of the like.