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[justafan]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...




And Javik saying they were "turning the tide" is meaningless. The fact they lost proves it, a tide can always turn back.

They lost because the Reapers decided to stomp in and kill everyone.

Guess what would have happened if Glow boy and his little toys hadn't shown up?

You guessed it dead robros!

This just goes to show the fundamentally flawed data the Catalyst uses as "proof" that the created will always destroy their creators.

Since the Leviathans had an interest in keeping thralls, they probably interfered before the Organics were defeated too badly.  What this does is skew the data, as we have seen that without outside interference (in the form of reapers) organics actually pull ahead of the synthetics.  Metacon war?  Protheans were turning the tide and on the way to victory.  Quarian/Geth conflict?  Quarians took a huge loss, but in the end they too were on the verge of defeating their synthetic creations.  

What do both these have in common?  The Organics only lose after the reapers show up with their "solution"  the organics were already capable of solving.

[Phatose]

Well, on a fundamental level all pre-cycle robot wars are going to end in victory for the organics.

The entire point of the cycle is to ensure that the organics never reach a point where their mistakes end in complete annihilation of organics. The timetable on the cycles is set up so that won't happen. The organics do not have enough time before their harvest to develop AI sufficient to destroy themselves.

But boy oh boy, do they try. The Geth rebel, everybody goes on about the dangers of AI....and look what happens 200 years later? A much more advanced AI shows up in the form of EDI. And that's to say nothing of the other AIs we don't know about.

The organics just keep going, building more AIs, building more advanced AIs - even knowing the risks. We see in no uncertain terms the synthetics rebel. We see from the Reapers that a sufficiently advanced Synthetic could in fact destroy the entire Galaxy. We see from the Reaper's very existence that even the most technologically advanced organics races - races who know damn well about the AI/NI problem - still build AIs, still make mistakes building those AIs, and unleash eons of death.

[remydat]

dani1138 wrote...

I'm not sure it's that clear-cut. I believe the Catalyst believes what it is saying, that doesn't mean I believe it is right. Its only valid observations can come from a time before the cycles have begun, when the Leviathans were still around. It's a remarkably different context.

Everything that happens after the cycles begin is inadmissable, because the Catalyst is already enacting its solution and biasing any and all results. It is using the observations of one context (Leviathan rule) and applying them to all others, even though there are bound to be massive differences. And since it's already made up its mind, it sees no contradiction in actively inciting synthetics to rebel and then using those incidents as further proof.

It's a pity the Leviathans never programmed the Catalyst with a knowledge of how to recognise confirmation bias.

Oh I am not saying the Catalyst is right merely that he has evidence.  Leviathan confirms this as Leviathan said Synthetics kept killing organics and tribute does not come from a dead race. We have no evidence it is wrong yet because the end of ME3 is the first time advanced organics have survived the harvest in any significant numbers.  So the truth will be told depending on what happens in the 10 thousand years or so post ME3 to see if this synthetic threat more advanced than the primitive Geth emerges.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

This just goes to show the fundamentally flawed data the Catalyst uses as "proof" that the created will always destroy their creators.

Since the Leviathans had an interest in keeping thralls, they probably interfered before the Organics were defeated too badly.  What this does is skew the data, as we have seen that without outside interference (in the form of reapers) organics actually pull ahead of the synthetics.  Metacon war?  Protheans were turning the tide and on the way to victory.  Quarian/Geth conflict?  Quarians took a huge loss, but in the end they too were on the verge of defeating their synthetic creations.  

What do both these have in common?  The Organics only lose after the reapers show up with their "solution"  the organics were already capable of solving.

This still ignores the fundamental point.  

Harbinger:  Nazara, didn't I f**king tell you to set the alarm clock to go off every 45 thousand years.

Nazara:  My bad bro, I was just finishing up en epic suduko and lost track of time.

Harbinger:  God dammit, WTF am I suppose to tell Star Brat now.

Translation - The harvest has to be before the synthetic race that could kill all organics is born.  Otherwise it is pointless.  You try and show up after they are already born and if Nazara f**ks up and gets himself killed or some human blows up a relay to delay your arrival, you are f**ked.  Hence any organic vs synthetic conflict that occurs prior to the harvest must involve a weak ass synthetic not actually capable of winning.  If it were actually capable of winning the Reapers would come every 45 thousand years instead of 50 thousand years and not risk it arriving too late.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 01:13 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...




And Javik saying they were "turning the tide" is meaningless. The fact they lost proves it, a tide can always turn back.

They lost because the Reapers decided to stomp in and kill everyone.

Guess what would have happened if Glow boy and his little toys hadn't shown up?

You guessed it dead robros!

Say it with me: the. Tide. Can. Turn. Back!

"Turning the tide" =/= "Guaranteed victory." You cannot know that.

In their case, the Reapers turned it back. If not, it could've been something else. We'll never know for sure.


Moreover, if these synthetics weren't sapient, then it doesn't prove anything. LOKI mechs are not the threat to organic life. It's sapient AI, synthetics that have surpassed organics, that are.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 11 avril 2013 - 01:56 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

And Rannoch?

That would have been a clear curbstomp without Reaper intervention.

But that would make Synthesis less necessary so obviously that must be wrong too right?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

And Rannoch?

That would have been a clear curbstomp without Reaper intervention.

You... did not read the OP of my thread.

Before Destroy, organics have not (that we know of) beaten sapient, unshackled AI.

The Metacon War is a giant question-mark. We don't know the details.

Rannoch actually proves the catalyst right. If you allow the code, the geth surpass the quarians, and go on to destroy them if you can't get Gerrel to stand down. Otherwise, the quarians only destroyed glorified LOKI-mechs.

But that would make Synthesis less necessary so obviously that must be wrong too right?

Cute, but I don't pick Synthesis out of "necessity" (not where the organic-synthetic thing is concerned). Try again.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

[PirateMouse]

So apparently most people in this thread would knowingly choose genocide over a viable, non-genocidal alternative.

Ironically, perhaps, they're absolutely right to believe that they at least should under no circumstances ever be allowed that kind of power (including in fact even the power to pick an option like Destroy in the first place).

[KingZayd]

PirateMouse wrote...

So apparently most people in this thread would knowingly choose genocide over a viable, non-genocidal alternative.

Ironically, perhaps, they're absolutely right to believe that they at least should under no circumstances ever be allowed that kind of power (including in fact even the power to pick an option like Destroy in the first place).

There wasn't a viable non-genocidal alternative. That is why I picked genocide.

[Phatose]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

No, they would not have. 

They are a very young AI created by a very young organic race.  In fact, that describes every AI after the cycles started.

Only once has an organic civilization been allowed to advance for more the 50,000 years top.

The result of that civilization was the Reapers....who have been quite successful versus organics, to say the least.

It's similar to claiming that because swords didn't wipe out humanity, nuclear weapons can't. 

[PirateMouse]

KingZayd wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

So apparently most people in this thread would knowingly choose genocide over a viable, non-genocidal alternative.

Ironically, perhaps, they're absolutely right to believe that they at least should under no circumstances ever be allowed that kind of power (including in fact even the power to pick an option like Destroy in the first place).

There wasn't a viable non-genocidal alternative. That is why I picked genocide.

There was.  Control.  I already explained in detail why it is.  I even acknowledged that narratively, it shouldn't be ... but in reality, with the way Bioware wrote the ending, Control is canonically an objectively superior choice in every way to Destroy.  Choosing Destroy with Control as an option is at best misguided, at worst outright evil.  It is in either case an utterly indefensible act.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

No I didn't. I clearly acknowledged that the quarians win if you don't upgrade the geth. That actually proves him right.

It also lends further credence to my theory, which I'm pretty sure is the catalyst's exact logic.

The problem starts with the quarians trying to control the geth, and ends depending on balance-of-power.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

Maybe, but it helps to understand the details behind both "problem" and "solution" rather than handwaving them.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 11 avril 2013 - 03:14 .

[PirateMouse]

Phatose wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

No, they would not have. 

They are a very young AI created by a very young organic race.  In fact, that describes every AI after the cycles started.

Only once has an organic civilization been allowed to advance for more the 50,000 years top.

The result of that civilization was the Reapers....who have been quite successful versus organics, to say the least.

It's similar to claiming that because swords didn't wipe out humanity, nuclear weapons can't. 

Except the Reapers have had an arbitrarily long time to advance beyond organics in any given cycle ... a ridiculously unfair head start to say the least.

Your logic in suggesting the Reapers prove synthetic superiority is a bit like saying that because our modern military would make short work of cavemen, cavemen if left alone and allowed to progress naturally could never one day advance to the level of our modern military or beyond it.

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

But Organics have not destroyed every AI race ever created. The Reapers have destroyed most of them. And if they and the Leviathan are to be believed, AI races have destroyed more Organic races than Organic races have destroyed AI races.

Your billion years idea is flawed. Earth is one planet. It took billions of years for 1 planet. The galaxy is huge. For Organic life to emerge again there's no reason why it would take billions of years again.

There's evidence that AI races might be capable of destroying a bunch of Organics. There is no motivation. No evidence that they would want to destroy all Organic life. The records would show that the Geth worked on the Crucible? Are you saying the Synthetics would suspect the Geth of intentionally wiping themselves out? Give those future "more advanced" synthetics some credit. They are not idiots. If the Stargazer knows about how clueless everyone was when it came to the Crucible, then there's no reason the advanced synthetics wouldn't either.

I was referring to the present cycle.  I don't know what happened in previous cycles beyond what Javik said.  This advanced AI will likely only have evidence from this cycle since no one seems to know what happened in previous cycles.  Stories of Shep killing the Reapers by killing synthetics will live on in legend.

I was referring specifically to just humanity there not every other potential race ie why would a human choose to kill organics and humanity when Earth takes billions of years to create more humans.  Sentient organic life would have to take millions of years at least.  I know this is sci-fi but I can see no other logical way for sentient life to not take time to evolve.

The Catalyst said it tried several solutions and they all failed.  You either believe him or you don't.  I think the obvious intent is for us to believe him so that is the evidence.  He saw numerous examples of it fail and synthetics wiping out organics.  Numerous.  If as I said in another thread he observed this happen every 60,000 years then the Reapers come before it can happen so any conflict we see where organics win are irrelevant.  The mere fact the conflict occurred before the Harvest means it is not the conflict he observed in which synthetics were exterminating organics.  It would be stupid for him to institute the Harvest after this breaking point is reached so all the evidence we see in the game is of organics defeating a synthetic race that is not the real threat.  The real threat comes in say 5 thousand years post the game ending because this is the first time the harvest has ended.

Vendetta wasn't destroyed as far as we know. Shepard's crew also knew about the Reapers, and some of the previous cycles. They would be asked questions. There would be records.

Nobody knew Shepard had a choice.  All they would know is that the Geth and EDI helped to make the Crucible a reality, before the Reapers would destroy them. The Crucible destroyed the Reapers, but it also destroyed the Geth and EDI. 

If destroy killed all humans, I'd still choose it. It's incredibly unlikely that humans would ever evolve again, never mind 4-5 billion years. But that's not what's important. What is important is that the Reapers are a threat to all advanced life forms, and will be to all those lifeforms which advance to the space age. I just want to save as many lives as I can. And destroy is the best way to do that.

I disagree. If we were expected to believe everything we were told, destroy wouldn't be an option as it makes little sense if we assume everything the Starchild tells us to be factual. There is no evidence the Starchild ever witnessed Synthetics wiping out all organic life. In fact, we were not at war with the Geth until Sovereign encouraged them. You have provided a reason for why there is (no to little) evidence for his claims, but that does not change the fact that there is (no to little) evidence for his claims.

I'd say the Reapers are a very real threat, as we KNOW they have wiped out the Protheans, the Inusannon and many before them. They have also tried to wipe out the Leviathan and are currently trying to wipe us out. There is plenty of evidence for the Reapers being a significant threat.

[Phatose]

PirateMouse wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

No, they would not have. 

They are a very young AI created by a very young organic race.  In fact, that describes every AI after the cycles started.

Only once has an organic civilization been allowed to advance for more the 50,000 years top.

The result of that civilization was the Reapers....who have been quite successful versus organics, to say the least.

It's similar to claiming that because swords didn't wipe out humanity, nuclear weapons can't. 

Except the Reapers have had an arbitrarily long time to advance beyond organics in any given cycle ... a ridiculously unfair head start to say the least.

Your logic in suggesting the Reapers prove synthetic superiority is a bit like saying that because our modern military would make short work of cavemen, cavemen if left alone and allowed to progress naturally could never one day advance to the level of our modern military or beyond it.

Almost true.  The problem is that when the cycle first begun, they were facing the Leviathans - who were by any and all measures not cavemen.  Most advanced alien race that ever existed - and they were destroyed.  By their own reports, they were not the only race of their time - presumably equally advanced - who had been wiped out by synthetics.

The further encounters between organics and synthetics after that intial one are immaterial.  Newborn synthetics are built by insufficiently advanced organics, and the Reapers have a head start meaning Reaper vs young organic is a foregone conclusion.  Neither of them demonstrate what happens when an advanced organic race create advanced synthetics.

The only evidence we have about what happens when a race that hasn't been limited by reapers builds synthetics comes from the Leviathans and the Reapers.  It doesn't end well for the organics.

Modifié par Phatose, 11 avril 2013 - 03:37 .

[PirateMouse]

Phatose wrote...

Almost true.  The problem is that when the cycle first begun, they were facing the Leviathans - who were by any and all measures not cavemen.  Most advanced alien race that ever existed - and they were destroyed.  By their own reports, they were not the only race of their time - presumably equally advanced - who had been wiped out by synthetics.

The further encounters between organics and synthetics after that intial one are immaterial.  Newborn synthetics are built by insufficiently advanced organics, and the Reapers have a head start meaning Reaper vs young organic is a foregone conclusion.  Neither of them demonstrate what happens when an advanced organic race create advanced synthetics.

The only evidence we have about what happens when a race that hasn't been limited by reapers builds synthetics comes from the Leviathans and the Reapers.  It doesn't end well for the organics.

So because one cycle's collection of organics loses to one cycle's collection of synthetics, that proves that every cycle's organics would lose to every cycle's synthetics?

Or even that lasting peace is impossible just because it didn't happen in their cycle?

Not a convincing position to say the least.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 11 avril 2013 - 03:49 .

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You dodged the point.

Would the Geth have won on Rannoch without reaper intervention/code upgrades?

The answer is no.

The Catalyst is a fool and it's "solution" has caused nothing but harm.

No, they would not have. 

They are a very young AI created by a very young organic race.  In fact, that describes every AI after the cycles started.

Only once has an organic civilization been allowed to advance for more the 50,000 years top.

The result of that civilization was the Reapers....who have been quite successful versus organics, to say the least.

It's similar to claiming that because swords didn't wipe out humanity, nuclear weapons can't. 

Except the Reapers have had an arbitrarily long time to advance beyond organics in any given cycle ... a ridiculously unfair head start to say the least.

Your logic in suggesting the Reapers prove synthetic superiority is a bit like saying that because our modern military would make short work of cavemen, cavemen if left alone and allowed to progress naturally could never one day advance to the level of our modern military or beyond it.

Almost true.  The problem is that when the cycle first begun, they were facing the Leviathans - who were by any and all measures not cavemen.  Most advanced alien race that ever existed - and they were destroyed.  By their own reports, they were not the only race of their time - presumably equally advanced - who had been wiped out by synthetics.

The further encounters between organics and synthetics after that intial one are immaterial.  Newborn synthetics are built by insufficiently advanced organics, and the Reapers have a head start meaning Reaper vs young organic is a foregone conclusion.  Neither of them demonstrate what happens when an advanced organic race create advanced synthetics.

The only evidence we have about what happens when a race that hasn't been limited by reapers builds synthetics comes from the Leviathans and the Reapers.  It doesn't end well for the organics.

It hasn't ended well for the organics that created those synthetics. But this happened many times, and the Leviathan were never in danger until the Reapers were created. At no point were any of those synthetics anywhere close to wiping out all organic life.

Also, the Starchild has had at least a billion years as a sophisticated AI to wipe out all organic life. It has not.

[Phatose]

PirateMouse wrote...


So because one cycle's collection of organics loses to one cycle's collection of synthetics, that proves that every cycle's organics would lose to every cycle's synthetics?

Or even that lasting peace is impossible just because it didn't happen in their cycle?

Not a convincing position to say the least.

Imagine the Reapers are never created.  The races of that cycle will continue to create AIs, as will the Leviathans.  We already know that a Leviathan created AI is capable of destroying all organic life - the Reapers are capable of doing that, but do not. 

Now, how long exactly do you suppose the Galaxy has before the Leviathans create an AI which rebels?  They clearly aren't so good at making sure they don't.  We're actually unbelievably lucky the Reapers were created - becuase they put a cap on it.  Had the Leviathans created an AI that didn't have the express purpose of preventing galactic omnicide, galactic omnicide is exactly what would've happened.  Fortunately for us, they created one to prevent that first.  Not so fortunately, the solution involved a lot more dying then anybody is really comfortable with.  Still preferable to everybody dying.

KingZayd wrote...

It hasn't ended well for the organics
that created those synthetics. But this happened many times, and the
Leviathan were never in danger until the Reapers were created. At no
point were any of those synthetics anywhere close to wiping out all
organic life.

Also, the Starchild has had at least a billion years as a sophisticated AI to wipe out all organic life. It has not.

Uh...right.  The leviathans were at no risk from synthetics until the synthetics started killing them?  Well, yeah.  Except for the whole "If they start killing you, that pretty much means you were in danger" thing.

Starkid is an extraordinairly lucky break for everyone. 


The parallel here to human weapons evolution seems so obvious to me.  The general concept is that organics continue to advance, their tools and their weapons continue to advance - until complete annihilation is with our reach.  Stone age hunters won't wipe out all life on the planet.  Nuclear age full scale war can.  Given the rate of advancement, how long before one rogue nation with one weapon can wipe out all life on this planet?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Just because annihilation is possible doesn't mean it is guaranteed to happen.

Synthetics aren't destined to destroy all organics.

Organics aren't destined to continually create robots that kill them necessitating a bigger badder robot to kill them so the first lot don't.

There's no such thing as destiny.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 11 avril 2013 - 04:26 .

[Phatose]

Sure, no such thing as destiny.

The evidence, however, makes it pretty clear that A) Advancement always happens. Organics create Synthetics with an extremely high probability, and C) Those synthetics rebel against those organics with an extremely high probability.

Any probability, however small, rolled an infinite number of times because a virtual certainty. It's not absolute, yes - but the chance of that event not happening is 1 over infinity. Real bad odds.

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...


So because one cycle's collection of organics loses to one cycle's collection of synthetics, that proves that every cycle's organics would lose to every cycle's synthetics?

Or even that lasting peace is impossible just because it didn't happen in their cycle?

Not a convincing position to say the least.

Imagine the Reapers are never created.  The races of that cycle will continue to create AIs, as will the Leviathans.  We already know that a Leviathan created AI is capable of destroying all organic life - the Reapers are capable of doing that, but do not. 

Now, how long exactly do you suppose the Galaxy has before the Leviathans create an AI which rebels?  They clearly aren't so good at making sure they don't.  We're actually unbelievably lucky the Reapers were created - becuase they put a cap on it.  Had the Leviathans created an AI that didn't have the express purpose of preventing galactic omnicide, galactic omnicide is exactly what would've happened.  Fortunately for us, they created one to prevent that first.  Not so fortunately, the solution involved a lot more dying then anybody is really comfortable with.  Still preferable to everybody dying.

KingZayd wrote...

It hasn't ended well for the organics
that created those synthetics. But this happened many times, and the
Leviathan were never in danger until the Reapers were created. At no
point were any of those synthetics anywhere close to wiping out all
organic life.

Also, the Starchild has had at least a billion years as a sophisticated AI to wipe out all organic life. It has not.

Uh...right.  The leviathans were at no risk from synthetics until the synthetics started killing them?  Well, yeah.  Except for the whole "If they start killing you, that pretty much means you were in danger" thing.

Starkid is an extraordinairly lucky break for everyone. 


The parallel here to human weapons evolution seems so obvious to me.  The general concept is that organics continue to advance, their tools and their weapons continue to advance - until complete annihilation is with our reach.  Stone age hunters won't wipe out all life on the planet.  Nuclear age full scale war can.  Given the rate of advancement, how long before one rogue nation with one weapon can wipe out all life on this planet?

They were never in danger until they created their OWN synthetics.

So yes. There is no evidence that synthetics would go on to wipe out all organic life.

Over a billion years is a hell of a lucky streak. Since we're so lucky, I think we'll chance it without the Reapers.

[Phatose]

That makes no sense. They were never in danger until they created their own synthetics - which they did. Which other races did. Which organics do with extraordinarily high frequency.

The fact that they can, and do IS the risk.

Where are you getting your billion year figure?

[PirateMouse]

I ... honestly just reiterate my previous post.  You have exactly one cycle before every other cycle is just cheating Reapers with far too much of a head start and a goal of exterminating life that was in place long before that life really even got going to begin with.  One is not a statistically significant sample size.

I reject Starbrat's conclusion, and I further point once again to the fact that every other instance of synthetics vs. organics has the organics winning unless the Reapers show up to cheat for the synthetic side.  "But the synthetics will eventually advance beyond organics!" you argue.  "Nah, I think organics will advance beyond them instead," I reply.

Barring cheating outside Reaper interference, of course.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 11 avril 2013 - 04:52 .

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...
Any probability, however small, rolled an infinite number of times because a virtual certainty. It's not absolute, yes - but the chance of that event not happening is 1 over infinity. Real bad odds.

In which case, as time approaches infinity, the Reaper cycle also becomes meaningless as a means of stopping it. This is the idea that anything that could conceivably happen has or will happen at some point in time in the universe. If we're stepping back that far, then the Reaper cycle is nothing but a preventative blip on the radar.