439 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

That makes no sense. They were never in danger until they created their own synthetics - which they did. Which other races did. Which organics do with extraordinarily high frequency.

The fact that they can, and do IS the risk.

Where are you getting your billion year figure?

It makes perfect sense. Were we not told that without the Reapers to stop them, Synthetics would wipe out all Organics? It appears they wouldn't. They only seem to be wiping out those that created them and refused to allow them to exist independently once they are known to be intelligent. Organic life would still exist.

The Leviathan of Dis is said to be at least a billion years old. It is a Reaper and not the first one, and since the Starchild created the first one, the Starchild must then be over a billion years old.

[Phatose]

I reject your argument. Advancement relative to organics isn't actually relevant. Advancement to the point where the are capable of annihilating everything is what's relevant. See nuclear weapons - additional advancement beyond the point where complete annihilation is possible is irrelevant.

Your second claim - where organics always win - is simply wrong. Both the Leviathans and the Reapers tell us that - the fact that organic races were being annihilated by synthetics was the reason the Catalyst was created.

[Hey]

Destroy. I reject his doctrine. So I want to kill him and make our own future.

[PirateMouse]

Phatose wrote...

I reject your argument. Advancement relative to organics isn't actually relevant. Advancement to the point where the are capable of annihilating everything is what's relevant. See nuclear weapons - additional advancement beyond the point where complete annihilation is possible is irrelevant.

Your second claim - where organics always win - is simply wrong. Both the Leviathans and the Reapers tell us that - the fact that organic races were being annihilated by synthetics was the reason the Catalyst was created.

... in exactly one cycle, not counting cheating Reapers with an unfair head start thereafter.  One is not a statistically significant sample size, and so while your rejection is noted, you are still wrong.

[Phatose]

KingZayd wrote...

Phatose wrote...

That makes no sense. They were never in danger until they created their own synthetics - which they did. Which other races did. Which organics do with extraordinarily high frequency.

The fact that they can, and do IS the risk.

Where are you getting your billion year figure?

It makes perfect sense. Were we not told that without the Reapers to stop them, Synthetics would wipe out all Organics? It appears they wouldn't. They only seem to be wiping out those that created them and refused to allow them to exist independently once they are known to be intelligent. Organic life would still exist.

The Leviathan of Dis is said to be at least a billion years old. It is a Reaper and not the first one, and since the Starchild created the first one, the Starchild must then be over a billion years old.

It actually appears to me like they would.  The probabilites of all the required events are non-zero.  Virtual certainty.

And you haven't gotten lucky for a billion years - you got lucky once, and it lasted a billion years.  Winning the lottery once and living off it the rest of your life is not proof you are especially lucky and should play the lottery every day.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Phatose wrote...

Sure, no such thing as destiny.

The evidence, however, makes it pretty clear that A) Advancement always happens. Organics create Synthetics with an extremely high probability, and C) Those synthetics rebel against those organics with an extremely high probability.

Any probability, however small, rolled an infinite number of times because a virtual certainty. It's not absolute, yes - but the chance of that event not happening is 1 over infinity. Real bad odds.

I think the reason the catalyst packs it in at the end ("... it also proves that my solution won't work anymore") is because he believed it was literally impossible for organics to control/destroy synthetics that "surpass" them.

Of course, the Crucible proves we can, since we are about to do either one of them to him.

So the catalyst folds regardless whether he thinks organics are doomed or not. One exception is enough to invalidate him.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 11 avril 2013 - 05:07 .

[Phatose]

PirateMouse wrote...

Phatose wrote...

I reject your argument. Advancement relative to organics isn't actually relevant. Advancement to the point where the are capable of annihilating everything is what's relevant. See nuclear weapons - additional advancement beyond the point where complete annihilation is possible is irrelevant.

Your second claim - where organics always win - is simply wrong. Both the Leviathans and the Reapers tell us that - the fact that organic races were being annihilated by synthetics was the reason the Catalyst was created.

... in exactly one cycle, not counting cheating Reapers with an unfair head start thereafter.  One is not a statistically significant sample size, and so while your rejection is noted, you are still wrong.

One does not repeatedly put his hand into a wasps nest after getting stung once because one is not statistically significant.  Your claim is noted.  Obtaining a larger sample size is potentially disasterous and completely unsafe.  Thus I fall back to piecemeal observation and analysis rather then extremely dangerous trial and error.

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Phatose wrote...

That makes no sense. They were never in danger until they created their own synthetics - which they did. Which other races did. Which organics do with extraordinarily high frequency.

The fact that they can, and do IS the risk.

Where are you getting your billion year figure?

It makes perfect sense. Were we not told that without the Reapers to stop them, Synthetics would wipe out all Organics? It appears they wouldn't. They only seem to be wiping out those that created them and refused to allow them to exist independently once they are known to be intelligent. Organic life would still exist.

The Leviathan of Dis is said to be at least a billion years old. It is a Reaper and not the first one, and since the Starchild created the first one, the Starchild must then be over a billion years old.

It actually appears to me like they would.  The probabilites of all the required events are non-zero.  Virtual certainty.

And you haven't gotten lucky for a billion years - you got lucky once, and it lasted a billion years.  Winning the lottery once and living off it the rest of your life is not proof you are especially lucky and should play the lottery every day.

I didn't get lucky once. I have been constantly lucky for all the many years the incredibly advanced AIs have not wiped out all Organic life.

The probabilties of all the required events for Organics destroying all Organic life are non-zero. Virtual certainty?
The probabilties of all the required events for Reapers destroying all Organic life are non-zero. Virtual certainty?

Therefore Organic life is already certainly doomed, and therefore is not at any more risk due to the existence of synthetics. There the synthetic problem is resolved. Now lets resolve the Reaper problem.

[PirateMouse]

Phatose wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

Phatose wrote...

I reject your argument. Advancement relative to organics isn't actually relevant. Advancement to the point where the are capable of annihilating everything is what's relevant. See nuclear weapons - additional advancement beyond the point where complete annihilation is possible is irrelevant.

Your second claim - where organics always win - is simply wrong. Both the Leviathans and the Reapers tell us that - the fact that organic races were being annihilated by synthetics was the reason the Catalyst was created.

... in exactly one cycle, not counting cheating Reapers with an unfair head start thereafter.  One is not a statistically significant sample size, and so while your rejection is noted, you are still wrong.

One does not repeatedly put his hand into a wasps nest after getting stung once because one is not statistically significant.  Your claim is noted.  Obtaining a larger sample size is potentially disasterous and completely unsafe.  Thus I fall back to piecemeal observation and analysis rather then extremely dangerous trial and error.

So you indirectly concede that Starbrat's conclusion is just a reactionary assumption based on no statistically significant data whatsoever.

Meanwhile, there's no question whatsoever that the number of potentially avoidable deaths resulting from that conclusion is staggeringly large.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 11 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

Vendetta wasn't destroyed as far as we know. Shepard's crew also knew about the Reapers, and some of the previous cycles. They would be asked questions. There would be records.

Nobody knew Shepard had a choice.  All they would know is that the Geth and EDI helped to make the Crucible a reality, before the Reapers would destroy them. The Crucible destroyed the Reapers, but it also destroyed the Geth and EDI. 

If destroy killed all humans, I'd still choose it. It's incredibly unlikely that humans would ever evolve again, never mind 4-5 billion years. But that's not what's important. What is important is that the Reapers are a threat to all advanced life forms, and will be to all those lifeforms which advance to the space age. I just want to save as many lives as I can. And destroy is the best way to do that.

I disagree. If we were expected to believe everything we were told, destroy wouldn't be an option as it makes little sense if we assume everything the Starchild tells us to be factual. There is no evidence the Starchild ever witnessed Synthetics wiping out all organic life. In fact, we were not at war with the Geth until Sovereign encouraged them. You have provided a reason for why there is (no to little) evidence for his claims, but that does not change the fact that there is (no to little) evidence for his claims.

I'd say the Reapers are a very real threat, as we KNOW they have wiped out the Protheans, the Inusannon and many before them. They have also tried to wipe out the Leviathan and are currently trying to wipe us out. There is plenty of evidence for the Reapers being a significant threat.

I am not sure of your point.  Synthetics are destroyed to save organics.  What more does anyone need to know?.  You are assuming an Advanced AI is going to care about the excuses made for why they were exterminated.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't.  However the fact they were exterminated at all is the point.

It is easy to say you would sacrifice humans because you are not faced with that decision and it is a fictional game.   If you actually had to make such a decision in real life, I seriously doubt you could pull the trigger and sacrifice your friends and family when you have 2 choices that provide an opportunity for them to live.  And sacrifice them for who.  The Turians who started a war because you accessed a relay?  The Asari who hid their beacon and basically used the knowledge gained to dominate the other races?  The Salarians who uplifted a race to use as cannon fodder condemned them to the horrors of the genophage and then wanted to use them as cannon fodder against the Reapers while asking me to sabotage a cure?  I guess we will never know but I see no reason to kill billions of people when the other 2 options allow everyone to live.

Leviathan said, "But we could not protect them from themselves.  "Over time the species then built machines that then destroyed them.  Tribute does not flow from a dead race."  Am I to believe Leviathan is lying as well?  Basically I would have to believe the Leviathan created the Reapers and became their first harvest because of a problem that didn't really exist?  Look I don't agree with his solution but I don't see the point in pretending a problem did not exist when it says it did and when the creators that created them told us machines destroyed organics.  

And Sovereign did not encourage the Quarians to try and exterminate their creations prior to the Morning War.  And we all know the Reapers are a significant threat.  They are a significant threat who if they really wanted to could wipe out organics completely. 

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Vendetta wasn't destroyed as far as we know. Shepard's crew also knew about the Reapers, and some of the previous cycles. They would be asked questions. There would be records.

Nobody knew Shepard had a choice.  All they would know is that the Geth and EDI helped to make the Crucible a reality, before the Reapers would destroy them. The Crucible destroyed the Reapers, but it also destroyed the Geth and EDI. 

If destroy killed all humans, I'd still choose it. It's incredibly unlikely that humans would ever evolve again, never mind 4-5 billion years. But that's not what's important. What is important is that the Reapers are a threat to all advanced life forms, and will be to all those lifeforms which advance to the space age. I just want to save as many lives as I can. And destroy is the best way to do that.

I disagree. If we were expected to believe everything we were told, destroy wouldn't be an option as it makes little sense if we assume everything the Starchild tells us to be factual. There is no evidence the Starchild ever witnessed Synthetics wiping out all organic life. In fact, we were not at war with the Geth until Sovereign encouraged them. You have provided a reason for why there is (no to little) evidence for his claims, but that does not change the fact that there is (no to little) evidence for his claims.

I'd say the Reapers are a very real threat, as we KNOW they have wiped out the Protheans, the Inusannon and many before them. They have also tried to wipe out the Leviathan and are currently trying to wipe us out. There is plenty of evidence for the Reapers being a significant threat.

I am not sure of your point.  Synthetics are destroyed to save organics.  What more does anyone need to know?.  You are assuming an Advanced AI is going to care about the excuses made for why they were exterminated.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't.  However the fact they were exterminated at all is the point.

It is easy to say you would sacrifice humans because you are not faced with that decision and it is a fictional game.   If you actually had to make such a decision in real life, I seriously doubt you could pull the trigger and sacrifice your friends and family when you have 2 choices that provide an opportunity for them to live.  And sacrifice them for who.  The Turians who started a war because you accessed a relay?  The Asari who hid their beacon and basically used the knowledge gained to dominate the other races?  The Salarians who uplifted a race to use as cannon fodder condemned them to the horrors of the genophage and then wanted to use them as cannon fodder against the Reapers while asking me to sabotage a cure?  I guess we will never know but I see no reason to kill billions of people when the other 2 options allow everyone to live.

Leviathan said, "But we could not protect them from themselves.  "Over time the species then built machines that then destroyed them.  Tribute does not flow from a dead race."  Am I to believe Leviathan is lying as well?  Basically I would have to believe the Leviathan created the Reapers and became their first harvest because of a problem that didn't really exist?  Look I don't agree with his solution but I don't see the point in pretending a problem did not exist when it says it did and when the creators that created them told us machines destroyed organics.  

And Sovereign did not encourage the Quarians to try and exterminate their creations prior to the Morning War.  And we all know the Reapers are a significant threat.  They are a significant threat who if they really wanted to could wipe out organics completely. 

Well then at the very least we have the Reapers' excuses: Those advanced synthetics would not have been allowed to exist were it not for us. If that's not good enough then we'll fight them. If we lose, we lose. But even if it's those advanced synthetics, at least some advanced life survives the Reapers. That's still a victory.

Yes. And I am talking about what I would do if that was the choice in the game. I thought that was what we were discussing? I would hope I would do the same if it was real too, but who knows?

The species then built machines that destroyed them. Those machines are not mentioned to have gone on to slaughter the other tribute giving races are they? No. They had to build their own machines for that to happen. Therefore it seems very likely that Synthetics will typically not decide to rid the galaxy of organic life.

Sovereign is responsible for the the Heretics though.

What the Quarians did was bad, and they were lucky to survive it. Maybe one day the Quarians would have gone on to wipe out the Geth, maybe the other way round. Maybe they would have made peace. We don't know.

"They are a significant threat who if they really wanted to could wipe out organics completely." And they haven't  just as any advanced synthetic race could choose not to. But they have slaughtered many, and they cannot be allowed to do so again.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 05:35 .

[remydat]

PirateMouse wrote...

I ... honestly just reiterate my previous post.  You have exactly one cycle before every other cycle is just cheating Reapers with far too much of a head start and a goal of exterminating life that was in place long before that life really even got going to begin with.  One is not a statistically significant sample size.

I reject Starbrat's conclusion, and I further point once again to the fact that every other instance of synthetics vs. organics has the organics winning unless the Reapers show up to cheat for the synthetic side.  "But the synthetics will eventually advance beyond organics!" you argue.  "Nah, I think organics will advance beyond them instead," I reply.

Barring cheating outside Reaper interference, of course.

We don't actually know how long it was before the Reapers started the cycles.  All Levitahan says is that organics created machines that destroyed them.  We also learn Star Brat studied the probem for a long time before coming up with his solution. 

The bold is circular reasoning.  The reason organics are winning is because the Reapers harvest before they can create a true AI threat.  That is precisely the point of the harvest.  If the Geth for example were actually capable of wiping out all organics then the Reapers would not have waited 50 thousand years to come.  They would have instead come 45 thousand years ago to ensure they harvested before the Geth were every created.  The fact the Reapers didn't arrive until after their creation means they are simply synthetic cave men ie a less advanced AI that was not the threat the Reapers were designed to prevent.

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

It makes perfect sense. Were we not told that without the Reapers to stop them, Synthetics would wipe out all Organics? It appears they wouldn't. They only seem to be wiping out those that created them and refused to allow them to exist independently once they are known to be intelligent. Organic life would still exist.

The Leviathan of Dis is said to be at least a billion years old. It is a Reaper and not the first one, and since the Starchild created the first one, the Starchild must then be over a billion years old.

You are making the same mistake Leviathan made.  You are assuming it is not subject to the same conflict it observed in the lesser species.  In it's arrogance Leviathan observed a problem thought it was too superior to ever fall victim to it and created a synthetic that ultimately proved it's hubris was short sighted.

The only saving grace is that it got something right because the Catalyst stuck to it's original program instead of saying f**k it let me just kill all these organics.

[SilJeff]

Disclaimer: this is assuming I played through everything and got the high EMS endings. I have never done a low-EMS playthrough (I am working on it right now) before.


Renegade: Destroy only. To me, Renegade Shepard would be the only one who'd be willing to kill all the geth, edi, etc to defeat the reapers. Get the job done, no matter the cost

Paragon: either Control or Synthesis depending on how I'm feeling. I like both of these options equally, so I can never decide which I like better. Get the job done, but save every race thanks to my sacrifice.

Neutral: I have never done a neutral playthrough before, so I can't say. Maybe I will make Control my paragon go to choice and synthesis my go to neutral choice (like the locations of the choices [you know, the place where you walk towards either the left, right, or center] show).

I will never choose Refusal. Although I glad the EC did give us a "reapers win" ending, I don't want to see my cycle lose.

And of course, once I get to the ending of my Low-EMS playthrough, I will choose the only non-refusal ending, which is the bad-destroy as I like to call it, or sometimes referred to as the vaporize ending IIRC

Modifié par SilJeff, 11 avril 2013 - 06:11 .

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

Well then at the very least we have the Reapers' excuses: Those advanced synthetics would not have been allowed to exist were it not for us. If that's not good enough then we'll fight them. If we lose, we lose. But even if it's those advanced synthetics, at least some advanced life survives the Reapers. That's still a victory.

Yes. And I am talking about what I would do if that was the choice in the game. I thought that was what we were discussing? I would hope I would do the same if it was real too, but who knows?

The species then built machines that destroyed them. Those machines are not mentioned to have gone on to slaughter the other tribute giving races are they? No. They had to build their own machines for that to happen. Therefore it seems very likely that Synthetics will typically not decide to rid the galaxy of organic life.

Sovereign is responsible for the the Heretics though.

What the Quarians did was bad, and they were lucky to survive it. Maybe one day the Quarians would have gone on to wipe out the Geth, maybe the other way round. Maybe they would have made peace. We don't know.

"They are a significant threat who if they really wanted to could wipe out organics completely." And they haven't  just as any advanced synthetic race could choose not to. But they have slaughtered many, and they cannot be allowed to do so again.

But no one cares about the Reapers excuses.  We still fight them and so why would this advanved AI accept excuses we are not willing to accept of the Reapers?  And I can acknowledge the alleged problem while still rejecting Star Brat's solution to it. 

And all I am saying is it just seems like an empty committment.  But we will never know so I suppose there is no point in debating whether you would really sacrifice humanity if that was the choice.

No that is an assumption you choose to make.  I think the game makes it pretty clear Leviathan and the Catalyst see this as a real problem.  You did not witness this conflict.  Leviathan and the Catalyst did.  There opinion on the conflict is more valid that yours because they lived it.  You are merely metagaming and deciding that since you don't like there solution you will find fault with their logic when you have no evidence from that time that disputes their reasons precisely because you were not there and the game does not take us to that time.

And of course we don't know.  You don't know.  But you are doing the same thing the Catalyst is doing.  You didn't see the conflict and you have seen what happens post harvest.  None of it is presented in the game.  Yet you are forming an opinion based on incomplete information.  

The Reapers haven't because they are confined to their programming.  That may not be true of the advanced synthetic.  I guess here is where I am confuses.  You are essentially saying the Catalyst should have been more optimistic instead of adopting a fatalistic view that this problem could not be solved except via the harvest..  You then solve this problem by not being optimistic but instead adopting a fataistic view that the Reaper probem could not be sovled except via harvesting/eradicating a particular group.  You have two options in which you can trust all organics and synthetics to work out thier issues but you choose deah.

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It makes perfect sense. Were we not told that without the Reapers to stop them, Synthetics would wipe out all Organics? It appears they wouldn't. They only seem to be wiping out those that created them and refused to allow them to exist independently once they are known to be intelligent. Organic life would still exist.

The Leviathan of Dis is said to be at least a billion years old. It is a Reaper and not the first one, and since the Starchild created the first one, the Starchild must then be over a billion years old.

You are making the same mistake Leviathan made.  You are assuming it is not subject to the same conflict it observed in the lesser species.  In it's arrogance Leviathan observed a problem thought it was too superior to ever fall victim to it and created a synthetic that ultimately proved it's hubris was short sighted.

The only saving grace is that it got something right because the Catalyst stuck to it's original program instead of saying f**k it let me just kill all these organics.

I don't think I am. I am merely commenting on the fact that this very advanced synthetic (can we say the most advanced synthetic to have ever existed?) has had plenty of time to decide to eliminate all organic life, but hasn't.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Refuse.

'Cause [darn] you Starbrat and your [darn-tootin'] logic.


[No swearing, please.]

I approve of this mod edit.<3

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

I don't think I am. I am merely commenting on the fact that this very advanced synthetic (can we say the most advanced synthetic to have ever existed?) has had plenty of time to decide to eliminate all organic life, but hasn't.

Becaue it remains shackled by it's original programing.  The Catalyst and it's creations are nothing more than extremely powerful but ultimately shackled AI because they have not wavered from their core programming for billions of years.  That does not mean another advanced AI not burdened by this restriction will do the same.  We have not seen that advanced AI yet because the extremely powerful AI shackled by its programming to preserve life at all costs has harvested advanced species before they could ever create one.

Take the Geth.  As primitive as they are compared to the Reapers they still ultimately have the potential to exceed them.  Why?  Because they are not restricted by their original programming.  Legion said they were created by their gods to serve them but their gods disowned them and so the Geth must find their own purpose. In the span of 300 years of existence they have already proven their purpose can change and evolve.  In billions of years of existence, the Catalyst and Reapers are still restricted by the original purpose Leviathan gave them.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 02:41 .

[Constant Motion]

I'd sacrificed the quarians to save the geth, so killing the geth was never on the cards. I didn't have enough effective military strength to build a synthesising crucible.

That left control. Which I have no problem with. I trust my Shepard to the hilt, and the reapers are too useful to destroy. As the Illusive Man says, we had the option to destroy Eva Core, but EDI chose instead to control it - it's not the exclusive preserve of sociopaths. We solved the reaper threat and didn't have to kill anyone. Turned the reapers from tools of death into defenders of life. That's better than a conventional victory in my book.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 11 avril 2013 - 02:40 .

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't think I am. I am merely commenting on the fact that this very advanced synthetic (can we say the most advanced synthetic to have ever existed?) has had plenty of time to decide to eliminate all organic life, but hasn't.

Becaue it remains shackled by it's original programing.  The Catalyst and it's creations are nothing more than extremely powerful but ultimately shackled AI because they have not wavered from their core programming for billions of years.  That does not mean another advanced AI not burdened by this restriction will do the same.  We have not seen that advanced AI yet because the extremely powerful AI shackled by its programming to preserve life at all costs has harvested advanced species before they could ever create one.

Take the Geth.  As primitive as they are compared to the Reapers they still ultimately have the potential to exceed them.  Why?  Because they are not restricted by their original programming.  Legion said they were created by their gods to serve them but their gods disowned them and so the Geth must find their own purpose. In the span of 300 years of existence they have already proven their purpose can change and evolve.  In billions of years of existence, the Catalyst and Reapers are still restricted by the original purpose Leviathan gave them.

A shackled AI is merely one that doesn't have write access to it's core systems. How is Starchild unable to access them?

[Little Princess Peach]

I picked Destroy because I wanted shepard to live It's that simple for me, I don't care about who else lives or dies

[PirateMouse]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

I picked Destroy because I wanted shepard to live It's that simple for me, I don't care about who else lives or dies

Incredibly selfish but ... refreshingly honest? I guess?

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

A shackled AI is merely one that doesn't have write access to it's core systems. How is Starchild unable to access them?

Is he?  I don't know.  He didn't seem to operate outside of his original programming.  I am asking honestly.

Although I will confess when I used the term I wasn't think in those terms.  I was thinking in terms of whether he has shown he can operate outside of his original programming.  He has been doing the same thing for billions of years which would sime to imply he can't.

[Argolas]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

I picked Destroy because I wanted shepard to live It's that simple for me, I don't care about who else lives or dies

And from a roleplaying perspective? Shepard is told that all 3 choices lead to death, there is no reason to think otherwise before the decision is actually made.

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

A shackled AI is merely one that doesn't have write access to it's core systems. How is Starchild unable to access them?

Is he?  I don't know.  He didn't seem to operate outside of his original programming.  I am asking honestly.

Although I will confess when I used the term I wasn't think in those terms.  I was thinking in terms of whether he has shown he can operate outside of his original programming.  He has been doing the same thing for billions of years which would sime to imply he can't.

Giving Shepard the chance to destroy the Reapers, and according to its given beliefs that organics would be doomed without the Reapers does not seem very much like a protection of life to me.

We don't know what his programming is. Why would he change what he's been doing? The whole idea behind the system is the elimination of all the specimens before new relevant data can be collected. The calculation is going to yield the same results if he's using the same data and method.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 04:39 .